Yes, he played some passes as you both point out. And I agree when he got the ball he generally kept things simple and completed the pass. But there’s a lot more expected from your defensive midfielder than putting a few passes together. If you watch the game again, and all recent games, and monitor Whelan closely it is clear his legs are gone and he’s not capable of doing the job he once did.Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Stopping advancing midfielders: on numerous occasions players skipped passed him like he wasn’t there. Watch Zakaria on a couple of occasions and Schar on on memorable occasion when whelan bought a “dummy” that he didn’t even attempt presenting a shooting opportunity. It was really concerning how easy it was. This was clearly evident vs Denmark as well.
Tracking runners and closing space: His positioning was actually so bad today a number of times, and obviously he doesn’t have the pace to compensate, even less so than his “peak” days. He was a liability today.
And the positive attribute to the game that he had today that people point to, he passed well. Yes every time he got on the ball he actually used it well, two dangerous miskicks apart. I only remember once or twice looking for the ball off the centre backs or goalie however. So if you want to focus on this aspect of his game as a defensive midfielder, he simply failed to demand the ball off the back line enough and be the link for advancing the ball. What little ball he received he actually did use well, and took a wonderful long range effort off the cross bar, but these achievements pale in comparison what is truly expected of a defensive midfielder at this level.
As I’ve said before, he has the heart of a lion and gives 110%, but he is painfully below the standard required and is potentially destructive to our chances to qualify.
For those commenting on how nice his passes were and what an actual good game he had, consider watching the game again and focus on whelan. Focus on the Swiss roaming forward with ease on a number of occasions. It is his primary role to stop this.
An alternative? You’ve probably no option but to give Cullen a chance. Playing well for Charlton, nice player. But I don’t think he’s a long term solution. 5th loan spell from West Ham at 23 years of age. Likely not going to make it there. For me, Jayson Molumby has it. Work ethic, engine, passing, shooting. But another few months away from justifying a trial start. Just hoping Neil Harris stop giving his buddy Williams a start ahead of him and he gets a few championship starts underneath his belt.
Don’t get me started on Mick’s fascination for Alan Judge and Scott Hogan. . .
Given that Stevens will be suspended for Georgia game, I’d try Coleman at left back and Christie at right. Coleman went there for Everton a couple of games ago after Digne got injured and did really well there I thought.
Also would love a look at a 4231 with Collins leading the line ahead of O’Dowda/Curtis, McG and Robbo/Judge. Cullen and Browne sitting in. In behind the #9 is easily the best position for McG in our set up. Agree that 352 is worth another look at some point.
Either way, Mick was hampered by not having time to experiment with his crop of players. Experimentation comes way ahead of the result for me in terms of the importance of the Bulgaria game.
Whelan simply can’t do it on his own defensively at the base of midfield. He looked better when he had the others back to help.
That was some thunderc*nt of a strike that hit the bar though.
McGoldrick utterly loves dropping to 10. We badly need a 9 ahead if him against Georgia, yes. Against Denmark I think we will need a deeper trio.
Ha ha it surely was.
Nearly as good as Phil Babb bouncing it off the crossbar with an overhead bicycle kick in a friendly against Czech Republic. Anyone remember that?
My few cents on this. Mcgoldrick doesn't want to be a 9. I felt we had no focus in the box last night on several occasions. When judge blasted his cross high and wide I reckon partly was he looked up, saw no one to aim at and realised mcg was behind him.
We need a focal point. I though Hogan did ok when he came on but was also quote withdrawn.
Duffy is a class player. No question. Very calm. The attitude is fab.
I though Whelan was a really mixed bag. You'd hope McCarthy can get game.time to take over from him. Beyond that I don't see a solution .
Hourihan and Jeff in the same team is interesting. Not sure if there is room for both.
I'm a fan of McLean generally but I don't see how he fits in this side. Not composed on the ball, didn't get any crosses in. Doesn't really add to any nice passages of play. Surely squad player at best. Time to invest in odowda or judge more.
Formation seemed to be all over the place to me but I admit I'm not very good at spotting these things. To me it looked more like a defacto 5 4 1 for most of the game with admittedly.very fast transitions.
I'd like to think we can be better at the high press but I suspect our midfield isn't mobile.enough for it collectively currently.
Decent result. Beat Georgia away and I fancy our chances.
Irish footballs emotional rollercoaster is pretty boring its got one down, with a big up. And then it finishes and you have to find your way down from the top. The inevitable 1-1 win that we seem to lose sight of. The same questions arise how come we only start playing with 15 mins to go or when we go a goal down or when we really need to score? Many of the same answers, the main one being the opposition sit back we get more time and space on the ball and we "energise" ourselves a good bit more. We've kicked the can down the road again. Like many times before.
On the formation/selection/positions I was a fair bit disappointed with Mick. He started with something close to what i would have liked in terms of selection but the positional/formation changes that went along were not right, he messed about with it(he said himself that he changed it around 3 times) and landed upon it in the last 15 mins, coincidence? It felt like he didnt really know what was best which is worrying.
A lot of players did one or two heart in mouth stuff to cover up generally average or poor performances. Coleman lost the ball on many occasions but had one great goal save, judge over hit or under hit every single cross/free but made a great intervention at the back. People are losing sight of us generally not playing but saving goals, for what players are played or brought on for.
I think the biggest change that affected how we played was dropping MCG deeper and bringing on an actual proper striker. Its fairly depressing that it took until the last 15-20 minutes to get that right. I really feel this game suited Long and I'm well aware of his limits but I'm more aware of our limits especially at present up front. We had at least a handful of opportunities where our players up top didnt have the pace or strength to outmuscle the Suissies but Long would have, we might not have scored but it was a platform that we could build proper attacks from, instead we had nothing to build from or off. Now more than ever we really need to play our best players and our best available positional players and ensure the formation matches this and gets the best out of those players.
I said when watching it Switzerland are just like us, they are just much better(at doing it) than us. Lots of mistakes and messing about in midfield and looking bang average. It was almost right apart from the goal, we could never work a move like that. Our footballing brains aren't as developed as other nations and our timing is always that nano-second behind opposing teams players.
Duffy and Keogh have not been putting a foot wrong really, one or two mi****s yesterday but they weren't(bar duffy missed header) in precarious scenarios. Stevens was generally poor but became more composed. MCG was very good when he dropped. Its a pity he's a bit slow and always looks a little big/cumbersome. Robinson didnt appear fit but he has some lovely touches. I hope he is not one of these players who just fades in and out. He's got the benefit here as he seemed to be happy enough coming off like he had some persistent niggle. Hourihane had some good patches of play but generally doesnt do enough. Hendrick much more involved than that the last 2 years accumulative. But still needs a little more. Whelan hit some lovely cross field passes when the swiss dropped off and sat deep. He was allowed to get better rather than he got better. Mcclean plays his heart out and its great to see with 20 mins to go but people should not lose slight he is limiting us for the rest of the game and our attacking threat. We have too many players like that already. I thought hogan did enough to just make space for mcg and allow us to play a proper formation that worked. Judge was brutal mccarthy got egg on his face, he saved a goal yes thats true but thats not what he was brought on for. Hes got about as much spark as a Trabant. Browne didnt see enough of because of time. Think he touched the ball once
And so here we are still hanging out, but soon we'll be caught up the table and a massive pressured filled game against Georgia. We'll get at least one more good night out of it yet.
Last edited by paul_oshea; 06/09/2019 at 9:08 AM.
I'm a bloke,I'm an ocker
And I really love your knockers,I'm a labourer by day,
I **** up all me pay,Watching footy on TV,
Just feed me more VB,Just pour my beer,And get my smokes, And go away
Ya 100 agree with this in bold. Good to see someone else recognised/saw this too. Mccarthy admitted afterwards in the interview that he'd changed it 3 times during the game, which I mentioned above was worrying. He seemed close to it at kick off and then completely messed about not knowing what was best. Generally agree with overall post tooMy few cents on this. Mcgoldrick doesn't want to be a 9. I felt we had no focus in the box last night on several occasions. When judge blasted his cross high and wide I reckon partly was he looked up, saw no one to aim at and realised mcg was behind him.
We need a focal point. I though Hogan did ok when he came on but was also quote withdrawn.
Duffy is a class player. No question. Very calm. The attitude is fab.
I though Whelan was a really mixed bag. You'd hope McCarthy can get game.time to take over from him. Beyond that I don't see a solution .
Hourihan and Jeff in the same team is interesting. Not sure if there is room for both.
I'm a fan of McLean generally but I don't see how he fits in this side. Not composed on the ball, didn't get any crosses in. Doesn't really add to any nice passages of play. Surely squad player at best. Time to invest in odowda or judge more.
Formation seemed to be all over the place to me but I admit I'm not very good at spotting these things. To me it looked more like a defacto 5 4 1 for most of the game with admittedly.very fast transitions.
I'd like to think we can be better at the high press but I suspect our midfield isn't mobile.enough for it collectively currently.
Decent result. Beat Georgia away and I fancy our chances.
I'm a bloke,I'm an ocker
And I really love your knockers,I'm a labourer by day,
I **** up all me pay,Watching footy on TV,
Just feed me more VB,Just pour my beer,And get my smokes, And go away
Good post, I would add one thing, I was very disappointed in Callum Robinson
and finally jeff had a good game
don't think robinson was fit. you cant sit out training the day before the match with a tight quad and be fit enough to play an international the next day.
Whelan was man of the match.
Anyone who disagrees is wrong.
https://kesslereffect.bandcamp.com/album/kepler - New music. It's not that bad.
I mean, he literally crossed the ball in for our only goal, granted it took a deflection but still...
Mon the Town!
I thought Robinson had some nice ideas but didn't really seem to connect with anyone mentally on what to do with the ball. That's systemic in my view. No one seems to have a plan going forward. Historically it was give.it to robbie or duffer. Even at a time it was give it to mcgeady.
I love that they are all trying to press forward but I think we need a main man..
I know. I sat above him for the first half and watched him basically defend well but be otherwise disconnected from the flow of play. If his job was pump the ball into the box, overall for me he didn't do it. If his job was to be part of build up play to support chances in the box, he didn't do that very well either. With James, his effort means he will always make a contribution of some sort but on balance I wonder if there are options that would add more over a whole game.
Whelan looks fit and healthy and not as slow as other suggest here. My big issue with him is that he isn't that mobile overall and if we want to press high in the modern game he's on average not going to be able to cope enough with transitions when they break past. Then the Swiss lads just run past him. If we want to press high we can't have him sitting too deep.
I love that mick is pressing high. It's like the old days of put em under pressure with aldo pressing high up the pitch under jack. The proto gegenpressing. But Whelan sadly undermines that in my view. Mobility is key now. Hendrick is good but there must be a reason he us benched at Burnley. Maybe it's discipline or he's just not capable of being one of 2 centre mids. He was played as a kind of deep 10 or advanced 8 for ages.
Hourihane I love as an attacking mid is too similar. Same with browne. We need a mobile, tough, smart 6. Someone who lives and breaths breaking up play and setting off moves.
Whelan may have been man of the match. Doesn't mean his performance was good standard. I think it's a shame hearts was the best he could do this year. I'd say he could still do a job at championship level.
Again agree I was on about this before players being on the same wavelength. I felt most of the time watching certain players him being one he was on a different level, last night he definitely wasn't fit though. But the one time a player who seems to have that(symmetry, hendrick) we nearly scored off it.
I'm a bloke,I'm an ocker
And I really love your knockers,I'm a labourer by day,
I **** up all me pay,Watching footy on TV,
Just feed me more VB,Just pour my beer,And get my smokes, And go away
Ya i think we are praising players for their attributes but those same attributes that limit us otherwise or mask over what they should be really doing or what we really need. Simply put, these players limit our overall attacking play but pop up at vital times and cloud our judgement of them and what we actually want and really need.
I'm a bloke,I'm an ocker
And I really love your knockers,I'm a labourer by day,
I **** up all me pay,Watching footy on TV,
Just feed me more VB,Just pour my beer,And get my smokes, And go away
Fitness a big deal. Fitness plus awareness and attitude (and talent I suppose but these guys all.have talent) mean they can assert themselves on a pitch. Those little physical battles are more likely, fractionally to go their way instead of being a free kick. When our players get in a 50/50 and end up on the ground or losing out, if we are fitter, and better positioned we just need 2 or 3 of those to go our way in a game. Mcg looked fit. Others, not so much.
All of this is fine margins. I dont think Irish players are substantially worse than our opposition. (Certain players like eriksen aside) But slight differences can be dramatic on the pitch in perception to the fan. We had 42% of possession last night. With a few improvements we could flip that.
Precisely. It's possible to praise them but still evaluate where we are going. It must be fascinating to be mick right now. It's a terrific job to have. Pity Mon and Roy decided to be negative rather than embrace the joy of the challenge.
The key to stopping better teams is being compact in midfield
Last night there was no need for a high press with a front man or two running around using up energy. Our high press left more space for the Swiss midfield to run into, oft times than not. A high line just inside their half on the edge of the circle, closing off options/space, with the front 2 players ready to ponce as the opposition try to play out from the back.
I think Hogan was in an offside position when McClean sent in that cross, did the defection by a Swiss árse make him onside?
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