Aiden McGeady interview

[Donal81]

i get your point and yes it would be boring and thats why theres other rooms. you know wat i mean tho

I know what you mean mate but it would be an awful pain in the hole if every time someone mentions politics, a moderator steps in and instructs us to bring it to another room.

[Fergie's Son]

I know what you mean mate but it would be an awful pain in the hole if every time someone mentions politics, a moderator steps in and instructs us to bring it to another room.

I agree. Sometimes these things just take on a life of their own

[Cowboy]

Minimum wages simply aren't enforced.

In Ireland they are (unless you can give an example otherwise) hence the dispute with the Turkish construction company.

[Fergie's Son]

In Ireland they are (unless you can give an example otherwise) hence the dispute with the Turkish construction company.

That, however, is just one example. An example that an exception proves the rule. They are not being enforced on construction sites or in the agricultural sector.

A large, open supply of labour logically leads to a deflation of wages. If wages for the lower classes are deflated then costs will rise insoafar as the wages simply can't sustain a consumer socieity. The nonsense that immigrant labour can sustain pension plan is proven by wage deflation.

[Cowboy]

That, however, is just one example. An example that an exception proves the rule. They are not being enforced on construction sites or in the agricultural sector.

Rather than sweeping statements can you provide actual evidence of this ?

[Fergie's Son]

Rather than sweeping statements can you provide actual evidence of this ?

It's a general consensus that unskilled labour will work for less than minimum wage. It's why the business lobby wants more and more immigration because they their labour costs fall.

Thankfully, we don't have unfettered capitalism because if we did, we sould still have a 7-day working week, child labour and no environmental protection. An unending labour supply is not good for either the worker or the economy in the long term.

[Cowboy]

It's a general consensus that unskilled labour will work for less than minimum wage. I

Another sweeping statement without any hard evidence, have you nothing more than anecdotal evidence and hearsay?

[Fergie's Son]

Another sweeping statement without any hard evidence, have you nothing more than anecdotal evidence and hearsay?

Look at the growth of the "underground" economy in the past 8 years. Fairly well documented by several Irish econimists with particular emphasis in agriculture, construction and the restaurant industry.

[Cowboy]

the underground economy was always here, did not need emmigrants to create and/or sustain it. I'm afraid I still dont see how you can be sure that immigration leads to wage deflation.

[Fergie's Son]

the underground economy was always here, did not need emmigrants to create and/or sustain it. I'm afraid I still dont see how you can be sure that immigration leads to wage deflation.

Well, the underground economy has grown.

Look at it this way, if you have a near unlimited source of labour then it is logical for prices to fall when supply outweighs demands. California is a great example of this (and it is the perfect place to study the affects of mass immigration). Real wages have fallen by more than $1. That means that, despite inflation, wages across the board have actually fallen. We can further take from this that wages on the lower-end of the spectrum have fallen drastically.

Borjas has written extensively on this and his gaining a significant following among economists.

He's now writing about the damage mass immigration does to the immigrant's home country. It causes a brain drain and allows the governments of those counties to remain inefficient and corrupt as they have less incentive (and pressure) to change because of the safety valve of immigration.

[Donal81]

Borjas has written extensively on this and his gaining a significant following among economists.

He's now writing about the damage mass immigration does to the immigrant's home country. It causes a brain drain and allows the governments of those counties to remain inefficient and corrupt as they have less incentive (and pressure) to change because of the safety valve of immigration.

It's mighty fine for him to write all this on what I'm sure is a lovely salary from a nice office. He's a Cuban immigrant himself so I'm sure life hasn't been cushy but, in fairness, this kind of talk ignores the blatantly obvious and focuses on the state rather than the individual. Imagine the scenario: you're unemployed in a country where the education is rubbish, the system is backward and there are no prospects. Are you going to stick around in order to contribute to the greater good of the country or are you going to leave and make a life for yourself?

He probably has a noble element to what he's writing in that he says he's looking out for the countries shipping out immigrants in the first place but it seems fairly pointless.

[Cowboy]

two points 1. US minimum wage is way below ours 2. Borjas is writing about the American economy not the Irish one.

Can you name one economist who thinks immigration is bad for the Irish economy ?

Well, the underground economy has grown.

Look at it this way, if you have a near unlimited source of labour then it is logical for prices to fall when supply outweighs demands. California is a great example of this (and it is the perfect place to study the affects of mass immigration). Real wages have fallen by more than $1. That means that, despite inflation, wages across the board have actually fallen. We can further take from this that wages on the lower-end of the spectrum have fallen drastically.

Borjas has written extensively on this and his gaining a significant following among economists.

He's now writing about the damage mass immigration does to the immigrant's home country. It causes a brain drain and allows the governments of those counties to remain inefficient and corrupt as they have less incentive (and pressure) to change because of the safety valve of immigration.

[Fergie's Son]

It's mighty fine for him to write all this on what I'm sure is a lovely salary from a nice office. He's a Cuban immigrant himself so I'm sure life hasn't been cushy but, in fairness, this kind of talk ignores the blatantly obvious and focuses on the state rather than the individual. Imagine the scenario: you're unemployed in a country where the education is rubbish, the system is backward and there are no prospects. Are you going to stick around in order to contribute to the greater good of the country or are you going to leave and make a life for yourself?

That's an entirely different argument though. You're now focusing on the individual's plight which is valid but not really practical. There are limits to everything and leaving one situation to make another situation that much worse is hardly the solution. I was responding to the oft-quoted claim that an economy "needs" immigrants. They might need some but they certainly don't need that many unskilled immigrants.

One of the big problems is that immigration robs the immigrant's own country of talent. It also allows their own leaders to ignore the problems by shunting people away from the country. The West (and the East) could help alleviate this by freeing up trade (less farm subsidies) and controlling interest on third-world debt (eliminating entirely it is a bad, bad idea).

We can't, and won't, solve all of the worlds problems by admitting as many people as possible into the country. It's naive, unfair and fundamentally undemocratic.

[Fergie's Son]

two points 1. US minimum wage is way below ours 2. Borjas is writing about the American economy not the Irish one.

Can you name one economist who thinks immigration is bad for the Irish economy ?

The US mininmum wage is $5.15 per hour (lowest rate, many states have a higher minimum wage. It's $6.50 in Illinois). The minimum wage in Ireland is $7.65 Euro per hour (as of May 1, 2005). Given the curren exchange rate, the Euro looks very attractive but the relative spending power of the US dollar is still higher which means that the minimum wage in the US would go slightly further.

They're both crap mind you but there you go. The problem though is that they aren't readily enforced. If a business owner has the option to pay someone a minimum wage (along with benefits etc.) or to pay someone who is willing to work for even less then most tend to go for the latter over the former. California is a perfectly good example of how massive numbers of immigrants hurt the economy and destroy minimum wage laws. It is applicable to Ireland as they have somewhat similar economies (southern califronia).

Kevin Meyers has quoted Irish economists who parrot Mr. Borjas' viewpoint but I'll need to dig it up and I no longer subscribe to the IT ($75 euro a year and all).

[Donal81]

That's an entirely different argument though. You're now focusing on the individual's plight which is valid but not really practical. There are limits to everything and leaving one situation to make another situation that much worse is hardly the solution. I was responding to the oft-quoted claim that an economy "needs" immigrants. They might need some but they certainly don't need that many unskilled immigrants.

One of the big problems is that immigration robs the immigrant's own country of talent. It also allows their own leaders to ignore the problems by shunting people away from the country. The West (and the East) could help alleviate this by freeing up trade (less farm subsidies) and controlling interest on third-world debt (eliminating entirely it is a bad, bad idea).

We can't, and won't, solve all of the worlds problems by admitting as many people as possible into the country. It's naive, unfair and fundamentally undemocratic.

Doesn't the chap say himself that economical reasons alone can't determine immigration policy? There's a humane element to it as well.

[Cowboy]

The West (and the East) could help alleviate this by freeing up trade (less farm subsidies)

At least I think we can all agree on this point

[Fergie's Son]

At least I think we can all agree on this point

Most certainly. What bothers me is immigration reformers who don't realize the full extent of the issue. Stopping people emmigrating isn't enough. We have to make an effort to improve the economic and social fortunes of "third-world" countries both for them and for ourselves.

In 1960 there were 3 billion people on the planet. In 2000 there were over 6 billion. There is massive population growth in the southern hemisphere that behooves us to act responsibly towards these countries. It makes sense to have stable, propsperous countries in all parts of the globe. Taking advantage of these countries through restrictive trade practices while dumping our consumer goods onto them is untenable.