Michael Moore

**Bolnoy Bratchny** · 26/04/2005, 8:23 AM

I didn�t see him in Dublin but my girlfriend was there. He basically just signed a load of books and then went on a twenty-minute rant, mostly about abortion. She said a lot of what he said didn�t go down well with the crowd and he came across as being very obnoxious.

Not addressing any of you lads but I really think too many people read Moore/Franklen et al and form opinions based only on this. I agree with most of what these guys say but I don�t see Bush as been particularly worse than previous U.S presidents.

I find the most insightful books about this topic are history books as this is just history repeating itself. If you read books such as Fahrenheit 451, Animal Farm, Brave New World or 1984 you will be amazed at their relevance to what�s happening today even though they were written up to fifty years ago.

**rebs23** · 26/04/2005, 10:52 AM

Michael Moore. WHY???
I can't understand peoples admiration of this guy?
He is an idiot/fool/wrong/misrepresentation of the facts/misquote/quote out of context/plain bloody wrong/
It just baffles me!

**ken foree** · 26/04/2005, 11:56 AM

Originally Posted by rebs23

Michael Moore. WHY???
I can't understand peoples admiration of this guy?
He is an idiot/fool/wrong/misrepresentation of the facts/misquote/quote out of context/plain bloody wrong/
It just baffles me!

he certainly spins things his own way but -factually- i don't think anything was found to be incorrect in farenheidt 911. he challenged the 'other side's' legal team to sue him for it if they found anything they could prove untrue. they.. couldn't. he's heavy-handed and way over-the-top at times for sure, a style that often defeats his purpose more than helping. but challenging the morass and fear dominant in the u.s. is vital in times like these so hats off to the man for that, at least.

**ken foree** · 26/04/2005, 12:04 PM

Originally Posted by Metrostars

Despite the last presidential election results, I don't really see a trend towards a more right wing state. It's not like Bush won in a landslide. One can say that well he got the most votes ever but you can turn the coin and say that more voted against him than any other president.

that's bang-on metrostars about the so-called 'mandate' dumbya feels he's garnered -and there's even a consensus among (obviously) the left in the u.s. that the '04 elections were nicked as well (through disenfranchisement of democrat minorities, voting machine irregularities that ALL favored the incumbent, exit poll data not adding up, etc.).

and if that's true, if actually more people *intended* for kerry to win, it would be a sweet ironic justice for the thieves as they'll face the possibility of a lame-duck 2nd term: unable to pass any of their legislation through because of public opposition. a public that obviously didn't vote for them in the first place! hahahaa i hope so. they're already seeing how out of touch domestically they are with most americans on the social security and shiavo's feeding tube.

**�anna** · 26/04/2005, 12:06 PM

Originally Posted by Gareth

I don't like Moore's books or attitude. His points are at times very valid and in some cases definately need to be highlighted. My problem is his "Jerry Springer" approach and his very clear to be seen ego. I am right, you are wrong approach to things grows tiresome, and in some ways he becomes what he preaches against. A man unable to see anything other than the side he stands on. A more balanced, less sensational approach to matters is required for me to take his work seriously. But then maybe with all his sensationalism, he is using the only approach possible to get past the thick craniums of some of the worlds population?

Hit the nail on the head there Gareth

**hamish** · 26/04/2005, 10:33 PM

Originally Posted by ken foree

that's bang-on metrostars about the so-called 'mandate' dumbya feels he's garnered -and there's even a consensus among (obviously) the left in the u.s. that the '04 elections were nicked as well (through disenfranchisement of democrat minorities, voting machine irregularities that ALL favored the incumbent, exit poll data not adding up, etc.).

and if that's true, if actually more people *intended* for kerry to win, it would be a sweet ironic justice for the thieves as they'll face the possibility of a lame-duck 2nd term: unable to pass any of their legislation through because of public opposition. a public that obviously didn't vote for them in the first place! hahahaa i hope so. they're already seeing how out of touch domestically they are with most americans on the social security and shiavo's feeding tube.

To use Dart (the game, not train) terminology,Eanna, 180!!! The Schiavo polls must have come as shock to the US right who exploited this case in the most disgusting manner possible.
I'm disagree with rebs23 - I watch Faux "News" occasionally and it is incredibly easy to demolish the "opinions" of O'Reilly, Malkin, Hannity, Gibson and co. For example, O'Reilly has this boycott of France going on and claimed recently that the "Paris Review" backed up his claim that French exports to the US were down because of the boycott. There is no such magazine called "The Paris review" - he just made it up. Rush Limbaugh does this every day so debatable statistics are not all Moore's forte. A lot of things Moore has stated are true and I'm afraid that it can be easier to hammer him for his mannerisms etc - Jesus, I do it myself. I still feel he has played an important role in the US to an limited extent.

**hamish** · 26/04/2005, 10:35 PM

Fcuk it, sorry - that was reply to Ken Foree/red23, not you Eanna, apologies to you all - time for the tablets!

**hamish** · 26/04/2005, 10:48 PM

Originally Posted by Bolnoy Bratchny

I didn�t see him in Dublin but my girlfriend was there. He basically just signed a load of books and then went on a twenty-minute rant, mostly about abortion. She said a lot of what he said didn�t go down well with the crowd and he came across as being very obnoxious.

Not addressing any of you lads but I really think too many people read Moore/Franklen et al and form opinions based only on this. I agree with most of what these guys say but I don�t see Bush as been particularly worse than previous U.S presidents.

I find the most insightful books about this topic are history books as this is just history repeating itself. If you read books such as Fahrenheit 451, Animal Farm, Brave New World or 1984 you will be amazed at their relevance to what�s happening today even though they were written up to fifty years ago.

Thanks Bolnoy Bratchny - Bush?? Failure in every area of private business and sport he managed - bailed out by family friends, ran Texas in to debt, running US into record debt, making a sihte of the Iraq/Middle East situation, surrounded by the biggest bunch of imcompetents in US history, who else would employ them, about to despoil the arctic with oil drilling for minimal gain (except for his oil friends), putting social security in the hands of the stock market, new "clean air" technology which will actually make America's environment dirtier, introduced the 5 minute execution decision in Texas, etc etc etc. Even Reagan was better and he was asleep half the time!
Surprised at the reaction to Moore - thought he got outstanding ovations etc but the media obviously had their hearing aids off!! Cheers.

**Bolnoy Bratchny** · 27/04/2005, 11:34 AM

Yeah i know all about Bushs history and there is no denying what a complete c*** he is. I just feel that Americans foreign policy today, which is what most people are annoyed about, is more or less the same has it has always being.

To quote (or rather paraphrase) Winston Churchill "the americans can always be relied upon to do the right thing, but only after exhautsing every other possiblity".

I suppose it annoys me to see the whole industry that has built up around anti-Bush books/films/web sites, go into any bookshop and you cant find a decent book because all shelf space is given to AntiBush and that feckin Da Vinci Code muck.

**ken foree** · 27/04/2005, 12:19 PM

Originally Posted by Bolnoy Bratchny

Yeah i know all about Bushs history and there is no denying what a complete c*** he is. I just feel that Americans foreign policy today, which is what most people are annoyed about, is more or less the same has it has always being.

I suppose it annoys me to see the whole industry that has built up around anti-Bush books/films/web sites, go into any bookshop and you cant find a decent book because all shelf space is given to AntiBush and that feckin Da Vinci Code muck.

yea it can be irritating but not a tenth as much as the oil/military/industrial corporate complex that dubya et al feel the need to provide new markets for (read: victims, environment, 'brown people who can't govern themselves' to paraphrase the boy king). stupid white men indeed.

**ken foree** · 27/04/2005, 12:22 PM

Originally Posted by Bolnoy Bratchny

I just feel that Americans foreign policy today, which is what most people are annoyed about, is more or less the same has it has always being.

...and that feckin Da Vinci Code muck.

you're right about this first point, what's the stat under clinton? 500,000 iraqi children under the age of 5 killed via the sanctions throughout the 90s. worth remembering them coz they've largely been forgotten.

and you're right about the 2nd point too, those books are poo

**hamish** · 27/04/2005, 5:18 PM

Agreed, Slick Willy was no great shakes either, except at getting at good BJ.
But, there's something particularly nasty about Bubble Boy and his neo-con friends. Not one of the likes of Cheney, Pearl etc ever fought in a war and did their damnest (Cheney, 5 times dodged Vietnam - "I had other priorities"). Yet these guys have no qualms about sending soldiers, usually from deprived backgrounds, to be mutilated in a war without even decent armour for their humvees. At least Clinton did something about Bosnia but, yeh, he failed miserably, as you rightly stated, in Africa etc.
Look, the various books you mentioned are strident and of the "I'm right and fcuk anyone who disagrees" mentality but it is possible to read 'em and sift out the crap from the truth.
Check out Newshounds, via The Smudge Report. When they criticise the likes of Faux "News", they at least quote word for word, their opponents statements (even mannerisms, coughs are included) and systematically criticise those statements, including the context they are made in. Media Matters is another good site.
I'm sure you guys know all this already, in any case.
As for the De Vinci Code, a load of bo...x. It reminds me of all the nonsense books that came out in the late 60s/early 70 about the Bermuda Triangle/God being an astronaut etc. I can't remember the author's name but he made a fortune on a series of books on this. I thnk his first name was Eric.

**ken foree** · 27/04/2005, 6:27 PM

heh, "chariots of the gods" weren't they. nazca lines as ancient runways, the sphinx a duty-free shop for spacefaring egyptians.. i believe it!

**hamish** · 27/04/2005, 6:41 PM

Ken Foree to my rescue again. That's the one. I'm

to admit I bought it and the follow ups!!

Yeh, remember the Nazca bit, allright. I'll be damned if I can remember his name, it is/was Erik not Eric and Gaybo had him on the Late Late. I think he was Swiss and jailed for some sort of corruption. In retrospect, the books are sihte but at the time, a lot of people really were into his spaceman/God stuff.Amazing, isn't it.

**hamish** · 27/04/2005, 10:05 PM

Hey Ken Foree, I remember the name - Eric or Erich Von Danekan - spelling might not be write but it sounds like that.

**lopez** · 27/04/2005, 10:30 PM

Saw him on his tour of the UK a couple of years ago in Camden and it came across as a bit of a 'champagne socialist' - loads od talk but FA action. Someone in the audience (a press and celeb night it might be added - I spotted Alan Rickman and wanted to ask him to do his Dev 'Theee Ireesh Republic...' number) asked where were all the poor and ethnics were at his shows. Then he wanted us to throw away our nectar (rewards cards) while he makes a mint on his shows. B*llocks.

However, despite the usual Bush-loving UK media onslaught, couldn't fault his Fahrenheit 9/11. Does make me laugh that people in the US think he's some sort of lefty.

FFS!!

**hamish** · 27/04/2005, 11:55 PM

Thanks Lopez, yeh, he's no lefty, that's for sure. I've just seen a programme I recorded called Pandora's Box which encompasses the military industrial complex one of you guys mentioned above and it was the most bizarre programmes I've ever seen. It had everthing - Dr. Strangelove type characters, the Rand Corporation, various Presidents locked in a kind of Alice in Wonderland situation throughout the last 40 or so years. You just gotta see it. It ties in beautifully with all this discussions we're having. I'll keep an eye out for it and let you know when it comes up again - it was on UKTV History.
By the way, guys, I used the word write instead of right in my above post - sorry about that - no joking, I used to be a remedial teacher!!! Jesus Christ!

**hamish** · 28/04/2005, 12:06 AM

Hey guys, re. above post - Pandora's Box is on again. . at 9am TODAY Thursday, 26th April on UKTV History and repeated at 10 am on UKTV History +1. Let me know if you got a chance to see it or a recording of it and I'd like to hear what you think. Cheers.