Michael Moore

**hamish** · 23/04/2005, 11:01 PM

Any Michael Moore fans out there? Just got his book "Will they ever trust us again?" and the stories from various US soldiers in it makes it a dreadful if enthralling read. I have all his stuff - books and videos/DVDs. What I'm really interested in if any of you attended his appearance in Dublin (UCD/Trinity???) a year or so ago. I'd be interested to learn what you thought of him. I'm convinced the US is entering a pre-fascist state and going to hell in a handbasket and the likes of Moore, Al Franken and co are fighting am uphill battle in all this. What do you think, given that Shannon is used to as a stopover for US troops to/from Iraq etc etc.

**pineapple stu** · 24/04/2005, 12:17 AM

Ever so slightly not the question you asked, but I've read two of his books ("Dude, Where's My Country" and the other one - can't remember the name), and he comes across as being very annoying. That's not to say he isn't right most of the time - Bush is an absolute gobsh!te, etc. - but I've found that if you read his views on a subject where you don't agree with - for me, abortion - he's an incredibly patronising, self-righteous writer. "My view is best and pooh to all who think otherwise!" kins of stuff. Also found that he wasn't as funny as he'd been made out to be. He's onto the right kind of topics we need to address in the world today, and if he helps waken the Yanks up, fair enough, but not exactly my cu pof tea, I'm afraid...

**�anna** · 24/04/2005, 12:26 AM

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

He's onto the right kind of topics we need to address in the world today, and if he helps waken the Yanks up, fair enough, but not exactly my cu pof tea, I'm afraid...

Yeah, that would be my take on him as well. Have to admit I found Al Franken's book (name escapes me right now) much better

**hamish** · 24/04/2005, 1:01 AM

Ah no probs Pineapple Stu, I didn't expect/want it to be a Moore love fest. Yeh, he can be the overbearing type but i reckon that some of that is due to the nature of US society/media where you don't get attention unless you adopt an inyerface attitude. However, I do worry about the way the US is going because that Faux "News"/anything liberal = antichrist attitude is beginning to seep into Irish media at the moment. I heard a few radio discussions lately where the liberal tag was used US style - think it was Pat Kenny's radio show. You know that what happens in the states often arrives over here and after years breaking the yolk of old repressive Ireland, I'd hate to think we might slip back into that type of scene. As a very young kid, I can remember the late 50s and early 60s and, believe you me, I can still taste the greyness, backwardness, poverty of mind and body of those days. Much of today's modern Ireland, of course, has adopted many of the ususal waste and frivalency that goes with wealth so I suppose it's not all nirvana - look at the hospital wards and I've seen more than I would have liked to over the past few years - but I never ever want to go back to those grey days again when playing a game of bloody soccer meant you were English-loving, traitorous and a general low life. I like Moore, without worshipping him, because he refuses to be cowed down by a media establishment (not just Faux) that has become an asslicking, conservative attachment to White House PR machine. I don't agree with you on abortion - I'm proud to say that, in my teaching days, I helped (a little) to refer a few kids to Cura who really were helpful and anything but the hard Cathloic outfit they are sometimes made out to be - just good people who really helped.. I still think that women have a right to choose but DO think that many unwanted pregnancies are produced from people getting ****ed, using no protection and, if they are affluent enough, grabbing the first plane to England, usually with Manny and Daddy's help. I realise of course that many poor, married women take the boat or plane also so it's not just a wealthy/solve-the problem or little Mary's future in business or college is riuned. To be utterly honest with you, I support women's right to chose BUT I do feel uncomfortable/confused about the abortion issue and that's probably the residue of Cathloicism that is part of me. Therefore, I fully und
erstand and respect your opinion on abortion because I've been trying to work my way through it for years. And let's not forget the blokes who impregnate and get off their responsibilities with little or no blame/costs of upringing etc. It reminds me of Jesse "The Body Ventura" when he was Minneasotta (I think) Governor, when asked by an unmarried couple with kids why there was so little financial support for unwed mothers, replied "Why the fcuk did you two get knocked up in the first?" He remined them that contraception was available in that area etc etc. Ventura was a wrestler, ok, but fought in Vietnam and was terrifically articulate and passionate in Operation Truth - check the website - he may still be on it.
Christ, I can never stick to a topic but I appreciate your replay as I didn't think too many would be interested. Cheers, man.

**hamish** · 24/04/2005, 1:23 AM

Originally Posted by �anna

Yeah, that would be my take on him as well. Have to admit I found Al Franken's book (name escapes me right now) much better

Cheers and thanks to you, Eanna. Jeez, I thought you were over on another thread bitchslapping poor old CollegeTillIDie and would be too busy coming here. I really should have broadened the thread to include Franken/Howard Dean/Media Matters/Newshounds/Air America etc etc. I love Franken - have all his books and like Moore, I love it when they tear apart the lies of those idiots Billy O'Reilly and Sean InSanity - thank God St. Paddy got rid of some of the snakes! I have all Frankens books and Best of The O'Franken Facor CDs if you ever want a read/listen, give me a shout. You probably know he's on Air America between (Irish time) 5pm and 8pm on the web. He's the dirtiest laugh I ever heard!
I still rhink Moore and Franken are vital to the US to stem the tide of the most corrupt, cowardly and dishonest shower of chickenhawks that ever ran a democratic country and am quite prepared to tolerate their mannerisms etc if their message is an honest one.
John Fogerty's song "Fortunate Son" is as relevant to now as it was in 1960's.
One last point, I have a good excuse but why aren't you two, Eanna and Pinapple Stu, not out drinkin', partyin' and talent searching at this hour of the night - Shame!!!!

But thanks again guys for replying.

**Gerrit** · 24/04/2005, 3:38 AM

I haven't read his books yet, but from what I have read in interviews with him and reviews it seems like an interesting bloke with -in gerenal- a good realistic view on American society.

And I agree there with Pineapple Stu, Bush is a disgrace. I have a deep hatred against capital punishment and never liked Bush, as he is a walking death penalty promotion pamflet. Apart from that I also hugely disagree with his views on abortion and gay marriage, and the war in Iraq is IMO a joke.

**jofyisgod** · 24/04/2005, 10:25 AM

Good books (just recently read Stupid White Men), but take what he writes with a pinch (or even a ton) of salt. I certainly wouldn't base any serious political ideas or research on what he writes. His books do manipulate data and personalities in very negative way, making it seem like all people who have ever spoken to GW Bush are monsters. To be honest, he wouldn't have been so successful if this stuff was written, for example, under Clinton, He's riding the wave, as it were, of 'unpopularity' of GW Bush. Good reads all the same.

**pete** · 24/04/2005, 7:59 PM

Thought Bowling for Columbine was his best work yet. He gpot onto the street to do origibal interviews.

Didn't think Stupid White Men was that well written. Farenheit 9/11 was over-rated too as just collection of archive footage for cheap laughs.

I don't think he political books are very original as can find the same information elsewhere which is probably why i think hes not so great.

**hamish** · 25/04/2005, 1:11 AM

Thanks a millions for all those opinions folks. I think he did a lot of work, though, during Slick Willy's tenure - against exploitative corporations and such like. I liked the various stories where he fought for unionisation in stores and removing bullets in WallMart. I think, by rediculing the the likes of Charlton Heston (NRA President) who made a very callous speech near Columbine almost immediately after the massacre, he made a fair case against that horrible organisation and Heston's moral/ethical barreness.
Thanks again, but did any of you attend his visit to Dublin - I'd love to hear about it.
Cheers.

**Macy** · 25/04/2005, 8:21 AM

Read the books and watched the films. Bowling for Columbine would be his best work imo. Whether you actually like his style or not, you've got to credit him for getting the issues publicity - even if it is only by the right wing yank press giving him sh�t.

Sir Hamish - can you please use shorter paragraphs? It's just too difficult to read it (esp in work

)

**Lionel Ritchie** · 25/04/2005, 8:40 AM

Broadly speaking I like the guy and agree with his politics -though he has a tendency to spin, over simplify and can stretch credulity and probability to reach some of his conclusions.

I've read Stupid White Men and Dude Where's My Country and I'd strongly recommend them both.

While I consider myself pro-choice I do find some of his rhetoric on this emotive issue quite frankly unhelpful.

I also think it's ironic and rather american that he considers himself a green but drives an SUV (an irreconsilable contradiction he at least acknowledges)

**Metrostars** · 25/04/2005, 3:56 PM

I think Moore is a little over the top sometimes, some of his theories in F-911 was quite a stretch to say the least. While I have not read his other books, I though Stupid White Men was quite good. As for Franken, I listen to Air America some times but I find Franken difficult to listen to. He doesnt have a good delivery and some of their skits come off very lame.
On another point, some people outside the US view all the american people as being brainwashed by Fox News and the conservative radio commentators. It really depends on where you are, this is quite a large country and here in the North East it is quite liberal. Last week I was on a business trip to Tennesee and people are very different down there.

**monkey magic** · 25/04/2005, 5:15 PM

i think moore's message is, in general, right and he has done a lot to highlight the serious problems facing american society in general, and the thugs who are running that country. his delivery however leaves a lot to be desired and as someone pointed out earlier, he comes across as annoyingly self rightous and contemtuous (doubt if thats spelt right) if you happen to disagree with his beliefs on a particular subject. bowling for columbine is a gripping read and imo his best work by a long shot. i was, to say the least dissapointed with farenheit/911, whilst there is a lot of good points made,its credibility is damaged by his points scoring and attempts to 'get one over' on bush and co.

**hamish** · 25/04/2005, 6:04 PM

Originally Posted by Macy

Read the books and watched the films. Bowling for Columbine would be his best work imo. Whether you actually like his style or not, you've got to credit him for getting the issues publicity - even if it is only by the right wing yank press giving him sh�t.

Sir Hamish - can you please use shorter paragraphs? It's just too difficult to read it (esp in work

)

Apologies, Macy, I'll really have to cop my self on re. the long paragraphs but, to be honest, I get so thrilled at the give and take of all the responses, that I try to "get it all out" and before I know it, half a page is full!! Auld fcukers like myself, you what we're like, once we start, we don't know when to shut up. From now on, I'll really work at the edit, promise!

**hamish** · 25/04/2005, 6:14 PM

Originally Posted by Metrostars

I think Moore is a little over the top sometimes, some of his theories in F-911 was quite a stretch to say the least. While I have not read his other books, I though Stupid White Men was quite good. As for Franken, I listen to Air America some times but I find Franken difficult to listen to. He doesnt have a good delivery and some of their skits come off very lame.
On another point, some people outside the US view all the american people as being brainwashed by Fox News and the conservative radio commentators. It really depends on where you are, this is quite a large country and here in the North East it is quite liberal. Last week I was on a business trip to Tennesee and people are very different down there.

I take your point, MetroStar, the vote John Kerry got in November proves that there are millions in the US who are not brainwashed. I'm also aware of the regional differences but isn't right wing radio a huge factor, also, in the US? I really worry at the influence Limbaugh, Malkin and Savage have. I remember Ireland when we we were stuffed with reactionary crap, from pulpit, screen, radio and newspapers and it wasn't a pretty place to live in . I'd hate to think that a country I genuinely love and had such a great time when there would see more a more power given to the right wing - witness the current scene vis-avis "activist judges", filibustering etc. What do you think and I hope you are not offended by my comments - I genuinely care.

**Metrostars** · 25/04/2005, 7:45 PM

Originally Posted by sirhamish

I take your point, MetroStar, the vote John Kerry got in November proves that there are millions in the US who are not brainwashed. I'm also aware of the regional differences but isn't right wing radio a huge factor, also, in the US? I really worry at the influence Limbaugh, Malkin and Savage have. I remember Ireland when we we were stuffed with reactionary crap, from pulpit, screen, radio and newspapers and it wasn't a pretty place to live in . I'd hate to think that a country I genuinely love and had such a great time when there would see more a more power given to the right wing - witness the current scene vis-avis "activist judges", filibustering etc. What do you think and I hope you are not offended by my comments - I genuinely care.

Despite the last presidential election results, I don't really see a trend towards a more right wing state. It's not like Bush won in a landslide. One can say that well he got the most votes ever but you can turn the coin and say that more voted against him than any other president. Limbaugh, whether you agree with him or not is a great communicator and some people can be sucked in. But conservative radio has it's audience already captured.

As for the current judges issue, it is really just politics between the dems and the repubs. It would be the same hankering if it were the other way round.

The biggest problem in providing an opposition is that the Democrats were poorly led. Kerry could have been a good candidate but he lost me and many others when he got wishey washy on whether the war in Iraq was justified. He wanted to be on both sides of the fence. He also could not shake his "New Englander-I'm smarter than you" image and that don't fly down south. I would have been happier if Dean was selected to run though he is a little off the wall.

**hamish** · 25/04/2005, 8:24 PM

Originally Posted by Metrostars

Despite the last presidential election results, I don't really see a trend towards a more right wing state. It's not like Bush won in a landslide. One can say that well he got the most votes ever but you can turn the coin and say that more voted against him than any other president. Limbaugh, whether you agree with him or not is a great communicator and some people can be sucked in. But conservative radio has it's audience already captured.

As for the current judges issue, it is really just politics between the dems and the repubs. It would be the same hankering if it were the other way round.

The biggest problem in providing an opposition is that the Democrats were poorly led. Kerry could have been a good candidate but he lost me and many others when he got wishey washy on whether the war in Iraq was justified. He wanted to be on both sides of the fence. He also could not shake his "New Englander-I'm smarter than you" image and that don't fly down south. I would have been happier if Dean was selected to run though he is a little off the wall.

Agree with you re. Howard Dean. Hadn't he a great record in Vermont with good healthcare etc and a local economy in the black. I agree with you re. Kerry but I thought that the Swift Boat campaign was a disgrace. Any time I heard Dean interviewed - on BBC, US TV amd even Irish Telly, I felt he was to the point, articulate and with his achievements, above, would have made a great President.

**pete** · 25/04/2005, 10:27 PM

Saying millions voted for Kerry doesn't make a great case for intelligent Americans as from what i could tell he was an idiot in his own way.

**Gareth** · 25/04/2005, 10:41 PM

I don't like Moore's books or attitude. His points are at times very valid and in some cases definately need to be highlighted. My problem is his "Jerry Springer" approach and his very clear to be seen ego. I am right, you are wrong approach to things grows tiresome, and in some ways he becomes what he preaches against. A man unable to see anything other than the side he stands on. A more balanced, less sensational approach to matters is required for me to take his work seriously. But then maybe with all his sensationalism, he is using the only approach possible to get past the thick craniums of some of the worlds population?

**hamish** · 26/04/2005, 4:29 AM

Great stuff, guys. I'm really learning a lot. Isn't it amazing how the UK and Irish media give Michael Moore such hero status, like he can do no wrong while you lads take a more critical and deeper view. You know what, I'm gonna look at the various videos and re-read his books and maybe gain a little better perspective. I still think that his views are pretty genuine and probably may be a reaction/over-reaction to a US media which appears to have lost its critical approach without the nuances in the various issues involved.
That could be a criticism of Moore, he doesn't do nuance, does he?
Thanks a million again, lads - as I've said before on other posts, Foot.ie is the place to go. I cannot understand why a lot of you don't contribute to local media re. even football 'cos you're damn better than the sihte which passes for sports journalism in this country - with a few exceptions, of course.
AND I'm not being patronising to any of you, just appreciative and full of admiration. Cheers.

Thanks a million - but did anyone see him in Dublin??? Sometimes the "live" experience can cut through better than the books/videos etc.