League of Ireland in Europe 2019

[Martinho II]

Where was Dean Jarvis last nite and what's the rumour going around about him? Ment to be getting released today from Dundalk

heard on otb loi weekly that hes being disciplined for misbehaviour! VP said this!

[dong]

I suggested a couple of seasons ago on here that Dundalk needed to push the boat out with a few marquee signings in order to progress in Europe.
I was shot down at the time by most.
Is it still not something to be considered to try to start to bridge that gap.

[Nesta99]

I still think that, among Dundalk fans, it's clear the feeling ye could play better far outweighed the idea that ye had disimproved. (Especially Ez's balls-to-the-wind guff, but I guess that's par for the course really)

The bit in bold is exactly the point I made back at the start, but the various Dundalk fans I quoted chose to have an overly positive view of things - they would improve, clean sheets were more important, the win was all that mattered, etc. The game last night went along very similar lines as UCD v Slovan - couple of defensive lapses, a missed chance when ramping up the pressure at 3-1 down on aggregate, etc. But by and large, these aren't the things that could swing a tie. They're the indicators of the difference in quality.

As I say, this isn't a dig at Dundalk. I just find the psychology interesting. It's why you've people telling you players failed in England because they were in too poor a league, or that the league is better than the SPL - stuff that just doesn't stack up to a rational view. And every one of us here is guilty of the same thing about our own clubs. I'll tell you now we've a good chance of beating Pat's next weekend and going on a Cup run for example!

I dont disagree in general. I'd be they sort of fan that tends to be nervous and expect the worst eg I dont think the league is absolutely done and dusted. I dont think you will find many Dundalk fans that will say that this side is as good as the 2016 version either but I dont think its rose tinted specs stuff to think that this Dundalk team could be performing better. We are topping the table still playing within ourselves and as much as it is a laboured point, the disruption to having an entire midfield injured or playing not fully fit hasnt helped. Some players have undoubtedly dipped in form like Duffy and McEleney - with just those two finding some form Dundalk would be a better all round unit. Players like Murray and Flores are still bedding in and that has been delayed by injuries also.
Last night was the closest that the side have looked like playing to a standard that Dundalk fans hope to see. That is not claiming that they are good enough for an extended run in Europe just simply that we havent performed domestically or in Europe at 100% tilt for one reason or another. I think there was a good slice of luck in 2016 in early qualifying rounds but once in the group stages and the pressure was off to an extent performances were more complete and against arguably better opposition. I dont see anything you say as a dig at all, you may have a more pragmatic view on a side you dont support that we would excuse or seek positives.

Everything needs to come together for any LoI side in Europe from the draw, to being clear of injuries, form and confidence, taking limited chances while also eliminating any clangers, clangers that If you quoted some of my other posts would show that I almost expect. If and buts but any one of the chances had taken a deflection off a defenders backside and in to the net in the first half I do still think Dundalk would have knocked on the door of progressing. As said even up until the peno miss nobody was leaving the ground, hoping for just a result if not overturning the deficit. IF the penalty had been scored Slovan were looking like they were rocking on the heels a bit and another Dundalk goal wasnt out of the question, would have been a spectacular turnaround and you always hope to be witness to one of those freak like comebacks. Lack of goals was an issue, has been in the league also imo but the difference between say Cork's European goal drought and our own is that I feel that we created chances and an inform striker could have converted. It shoudnt be forgotten the criticism that McMillan got the first year v BATE and that how we needed a more clinical striker, 12 months later its a different story and now people are saying we need like of the former unrated McMillan (especially from some Pats fans). Kilduff scored some important goals but also missed the sitters that could have put is in contention of a last 32 EL slot 2016 and the last minute miss v Rosenbord to put us through I still cant watch back. Those issues remain really and were shown especially by Larnaca that that clinical nature is essential and Slovan last night also - we huffed and puffed in front of goal, they had 2 breaks and the tie was done early doors.
It's unusual for Dundalk fans to sway on the positive side as over the years we have always been a hard to please contrary bunch, by nature critical of our own teams. It took a long while to buy in to the Stephen Kenny belief system. That lingers and I think with good reason. We are not so long from miserable nights in the 1st Division not to appreciate what is happening at the club over the last number of years and there is not a whole lot to assume that challanging for leagues and cups and a spin around Europe is due to end. For that reason alone there is a more positive outlook. An example is in that winning the league (or qualifying for EL) as a seeded team that winning one round is always possible and that banks circa *€1m annually so in context I would be more psoitive about things and likely see things in a better light that others. It's arguable that the expectation of Dundalk was greater outside of Dundalk circles AND that the criticism has certainly been greater elsewhere be it in the media or LoI fora.

*If we can keep in the top 3 Euro prizemoney grows, EL2 give additional potential opportunities, even changes at the FAI and LoI could see external revenue grow in coming years. So in relation to days of being excluded from top flight footy we are top of the heap at an unprecedented time to reap the benfits. If there is real criticism its is from the angle of making sure we make hay while the sun shines be it with Oriel Park, youth development, opportunities to grow income streams that need money to generate money off the park etc.

[Nesta99]

I suggested a couple of seasons ago on here that Dundalk needed to push the boat out with a few marquee signings in order to progress in Europe.
I was shot down at the time by most.
Is it still not something to be considered to try to start to bridge that gap.

Yes! Adorjan was an example of that if it had worked out better as he wanted to stay. The net needs to spread beyond UK and Ireland, but that's a work in progress.

[mcgonigle]

I wish I had dundalks problems of not winning the league easily enough but are dundalk fans saying there is no feeling amongst fans that the team have not hit top form this year under vinnie? All those penos and late winners are not signs of a team winning easily 1which was the sense I got from dundalk last year. Famously poor old SK never got a peno

There are always going to be dips in form during a season. Take a look back at any of the match threads here and on Oriel Web for the last 5 years and you'll find plenty of examples of fans complaining about performances. We are used to very high standards.

Bar 2016 and 2017, this season so far has been no worse or better than the others under Kenny

[oriel]

Forgot to post earlier, I had a great chat with the Bradser last night at the game, we just happened to be in the same area when I moved for the second half, we discussed the game and a few other things. I have to say he was very polite and I really enjoyed the chat, he knew I was a DFC fan and we talked about the obvious flaws in our performance and Irish football in general. He is most certainly a very different guy in person to the one you hear interviewed.

Ezeikial, sorry for your troubles (in advance) when you read this.

[Ezeikial]

Interesting bit of psychology in the posts above - interesting how far fans will go to ignore an obvious deficit in their own club. But that deficit has been flagged a number of times in the games since.

(Not getting at Dundalk fans specifically; we're all guilty of it)

I think your pseudo psychology observation is built on sand.

Your original comment about Dundalk's lack of goals in the Riga tie being worrying was a fairly trite observation - possibly designed for you to build a platform for the "I told you so" ego post that you subsequently painstakingly constructed.

A concern about a likely difficulty in scoring enough goals (or conceding too many for that matter) is one that you could make in advance of every european campaign for every LoI club since the dawn of participation - and be proven 100% correct in hindsight in every case!

I still think that, among Dundalk fans, it's clear the feeling ye could play better far outweighed the idea that ye had disimproved. (Especially Ez's balls-to-the-wind guff, but I guess that's par for the course really)

At least you gave me a chuckle with your quirky attempt at a personalised barb. For what it is worth the notions of playing better and not being as effective as the 2016 team are not mutually exclusive.

In my opinion both are true - there is a lot more in this current Dundalk team and the 2016 midfield of O'Donnell, Finn and especially Horgan have been badly missed this season.

I hope the psychology classes go well for you

[Ezeikial]

Forgot to post earlier, I had a great chat with the Bradser last night at the game, we just happened to be in the same area when I moved for the second half, we discussed the game and a few other things. I have to say he was very polite and I really enjoyed the chat, he knew I was a DFC fan and we talked about the obvious flaws in our performance and Irish football in general. He is most certainly a very different guy in person to the one you hear interviewed.

Ezekiel, sorry for your troubles (in advance) when you read this.

Delighted to hear it.

I think he has come on well in his media communications this year and doesn't tend to come across as arrogant as previously. No further repeat of his special "their cup final" motivational nonsense either.

Glad to hear you enjoyed the chat with him.

[marinobohs]

OK, so Dundalk were not up to it in Europe but still the standard bearers in LOI (think that’s agreed).
So, will PEAK6 invest to “chase the dream” or be content to carry on with the current status ? And if so how much more should they throw at it ?

[oriel]

I suggested a couple of seasons ago on here that Dundalk needed to push the boat out with a few marquee signings in order to progress in Europe.
I was shot down at the time by most.
Is it still not something to be considered to try to start to bridge that gap.

Will be hard to attract a good player to Ireland v a better option they will have (which will be in most cases) but I think you are right, if DFC owners want to push further on to where they want to be, better players from abroad will need to be recruited.

An example of how difficult this will be is a lad now off to a good start with Dundee Utd, Shankland, he picked them over Dundalk. I'd imagine wages would have been a factor, so that might need to be looked at, it will be up to the owners of DFC if they want to go down that route.

[Ezeikial]

OK, so Dundalk were not up to it in Europe but still the standard bearers in LOI (think that’s agreed).
So, will PEAK6 invest to “chase the dream” or be content to carry on with the current status ? And if so how much more should they throw at it ?

That's the big question - will the owners stick or twist?

Stick
The current squad has already had significant investment (recent contracts for McEleney, Duffy, Shields, Gannon, Boyle, Murray & Flores being examples). The owners could continue this policy, seeking to consistently win the league and hope for gradual improvement and the luck of the draw or Europa League 2 to earn more than €1.2m current season prize-money

Twist
The sound bytes indicate more ambition than the organic growth of the 'Stick' option. It remains to be seen if they are prepared to risk the huge sums of money needed to close the gap on the Slovan Bratislavas, Qarabags or Larnacas.

The next transfer window will tell a lot, but I while they may choose to increase the playing budget I don't foresee the massive increase required to match any of the above playing budgets

[EatYerGreens]

That's the big question - will the owners stick or twist?

Stick
The current squad has already had significant investment (recent contracts for McEleney, Duffy, Shields, Gannon, Boyle, Murray & Flores being examples). The owners could continue this policy, seeking to consistently win the league and hope for gradual improvement and the luck of the draw or Europa League 2 to earn more than €1.2m current season prize-money

Twist
The sound bytes indicate more ambition than the organic growth of the 'Stick' option. It remains to be seen if they are prepared to risk the huge sums of money needed to close the gap on the Slovan Bratislavas, Qarabags or Larnacas.

The next transfer window will tell a lot, but I while they may choose to increase the playing budget I don't foresee the massive increase required to match any of the above playing budgets

By now it feels that Peak6's strategy is to put little or none of their own money in, and to have the club survive off its prizemoney and European cash.

Unless I'm wrong, the current team is costing them less than they've made in Europe alone this season.

So it appears that their current model is to not spend on the club themselves. That's extremely unlikely to see them make a breakthrough in Europe though. Especially as other 'lesser' leagues and club s make progress whilst Dundalk plateaus.

[oriel]

Daniel McD in the Indo today reports that its costing P6 around €1m to keep things ticking over per year, that sounds about right. DFC picked up €1.2m from europe this season, but two charters had to come out of that, including 150-160k to Baku, plus rent paid to SDCC for last Tuesday. Gates would have prob taken in 60k in each of the oriel park matches.

If they want to get to the EL play off, (€1.5m) and chance of the group stages (€2.8m I think), they will need to further invest in the squad.

Daniel report says DFC still have a lot of cash left in the bank, but europe is the only way to earn more.

[colonelwest]

By now it feels that Peak6's strategy is to put little or none of their own money in, and to have the club survive off its prizemoney and European cash.

Unless I'm wrong, the current team is costing them less than they've made in Europe alone this season.

So it appears that their current model is to not spend on the club themselves. That's extremely unlikely to see them make a breakthrough in Europe though. Especially as other 'lesser' leagues and club s make progress whilst Dundalk plateaus.

Has been said before but Peak6/ the owners investment group have already put in at least 1.5m of their own money without touching the bank balance left from the 2016 run. Even Dan McD is publicly stating it:

https://www.independent.ie/sport/soc...-38404673.html

"Suggestions that they haven’t put money into the club already are not based on fact. Salary Cost Protocol (SCP) dictates that wages can only be 65 per cent of turnover and it’s understood that the Dundalk hierarchy had to pump in somewhere in the ballpark of €1m last year, largely to ensure that they stayed within those rules.
This isn’t a loan; licensing doesn’t allow that so it’s classified as Corporate & Private Sponsorship. Dundalk still have a decent portion of their 2016 money in the bank, so they aren’t paying their way by dipping into those savings either.
It’s likely the Americans will have to search their pockets again this year for SCP purposes, a further spend on top of the €500k they have put into behind-the-scenes facilities for players."

[Mr A]

Holy crap- are we seeing the rules work to protect a club's long term stability? That's disorientating and weird.

[sbgawa]

Daniel McD in the Indo today reports that its costing P6 around €1m to keep things ticking over per year, that sounds about right. DFC picked up €1.2m from europe this season, but two charters had to come out of that, including 150-160k to Baku, plus rent paid to SDCC for last Tuesday. Gates would have prob taken in 60k in each of the oriel park matches.

If they want to get to the EL play off, (€1.5m) and chance of the group stages (€2.8m I think), they will need to further invest in the squad.

Daniel report says DFC still have a lot of cash left in the bank, but europe is the only way to earn more.

I'd say you are pretty bang on with your numbers, but dropping 1m a year is potentailly covered by qualifying for group stages once every 5 years and with EL2 coming up it is not to far a stretch.
the only thing that might worry them is the unlikely event of someone else winning the league , the champions route is the gold line.

[paul_oshea]

I suggested a couple of seasons ago on here that Dundalk needed to push the boat out with a few marquee signings in order to progress in Europe.
I was shot down at the time by most.
Is it still not something to be considered to try to start to bridge that gap.

I suggested this about 10 years ago on here, even going as far to say that the FAI should work with the Government around getting a 2 year type scholarship visa for certain countries say Latin America so they can bring them over. Could have them learn english as part of it. Was laughed at. Still think fundamentally that its a sound approach at a reasonable outlay. It was around the sametime that I mentioned fundamental changes to their conditioning as physically they were bullied in Europe around this time and also a mental steeliness that they lacked. At least one of those things has changed.

I think its a bit of a cop out to say SLovan were just a superior side or Dundalk were up against a better quality opposition. No doubt they were pacey and far more clinical than Dundalk, but that's discounting that 2 of the goals were basic junior ball defending. Add to that their delivery wasnt good enough, again something that you practice on time and again in training, they couldnt pick out a man most of the time and most high balls into the box failed to beat the first defender. The low hard diagonals across the box had no one running on anticipating the break in behind, again this is fairly basic stuff to cover in training. Dundalk played some lovely football but there was a serious lack of co-ordination and anticipation from any of the players, like they didnt understand the lads they were playing with. Worry about what you can right first, then you can discount the other things. Had Dundalk sorted those which were I think we all thought a thing of the past then that match would have been much tighter and could have seen them go through. SLovan were very similar to Riga, resolute, well-organised defending but they had more pace and intent when going forward.

I also think its fair to say that the general assumption that Dundalk could play better or were individually better than they performed was unfounded. They had 6 games to show it and really they didn't.

I don't get to see many LOI games on TV as I've lived abroad for a long time now so I cant comment on the general league but I have missed very few games in Europe(LOI Sides) if any(that are on a stream or TV somewhere) and the standard now is no way comparable to LOI sides from ten years ago or further back. They have come on leaps and bounds and that's why its very frustrating to see mistakes of a fenlon-type managed team from the 00s from Dundalk.

[swinfordfc]

In fairest, it is tougher to now qualified for the group stages than 2016. And yes you can say the draw that Dundalk got was tougher this year ... but Hoban up front is not the answer and Perth tactics are brutal! There were some silly individual defensive errors which you wont get away it in Europe. Look at Celtic how they crumbled on Tuesday and Aberdeen who will get know out tonight! If they do, that's two of the Scottish teams got out already! It is some achievement for Linfield so be in the play off round and it will be interesting to see how they do against Quarabarg, compared to Dundalk. Rovers were very unlucky in the previous round but again - giving away the away goal in Tallaght cost them in Cyprus.

[Mr A]

I think I would go down the route of making the underage leagues and coaching standards here stronger and producing better players that way rather than splurging on bringing in marquee foreign signings, which seems to be an idea in vogue all of a sudden.

But the next silver bullet always tends to be more attractive than the building gradually and sustainably option

[CorribsideSteve]

I suggested this about 10 years ago on here, even going as far to say that the FAI should work with the Government around getting a 2 year type scholarship visa for certain countries say Latin America so they can bring them over. Could have them learn english as part of it. Was laughed at. Still think fundamentally that its a sound approach at a reasonable outlay. It was around the sametime that I mentioned fundamental changes to their conditioning as physically they were bullied in Europe around this time and also a mental steeliness that they lacked. At least one of those things has changed.

I think its a bit of a cop out to say SLovan were just a superior side or Dundalk were up against a better quality opposition. No doubt they were pacey and far more clinical than Dundalk, but that's discounting that 2 of the goals were basic junior ball defending. Add to that their delivery wasnt good enough, again something that you practice on time and again in training, they couldnt pick out a man most of the time and most high balls into the box failed to beat the first defender. The low hard diagonals across the box had no one running on anticipating the break in behind, again this is fairly basic stuff to cover in training. Dundalk played some lovely football but there was a serious lack of co-ordination and anticipation from any of the players, like they didnt understand the lads they were playing with. Worry about what you can right first, then you can discount the other things. Had Dundalk sorted those which were I think we all thought a thing of the past then that match would have been much tighter and could have seen them go through. SLovan were very similar to Riga, resolute, well-organised defending but they had more pace and intent when going forward.

I also think its fair to say that the general assumption that Dundalk could play better or were individually better than they performed was unfounded. They had 6 games to show it and really they didn't.

I don't get to see many LOI games on TV as I've lived abroad for a long time now so I cant comment on the general league but I have missed very few games in Europe(LOI Sides) if any(that are on a stream or TV somewhere) and the standard now is no way comparable to LOI sides from ten years ago or further back. They have come on leaps and bounds and that's why its very frustrating to see mistakes of a fenlon-type managed team from the 00s from Dundalk.

well said. sums up my feelings on both Dundalk's tiers this year and LOI Euro ties in general pretty succinctly.