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Thread: Belfast Celtic

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by marinobohs View Post
    I think the IFA would have to approve any club in its jurisdiction playing in another league - new or old. Derry was different in that there was major security concerns about the Brandywell at the time and once they had agreed to them going to LOI they wee never likely to retract although I believe thee was an offer to return to IL ?).
    a club (new or old) in the middle of Belfast is a distinctly different issue and I doubt the IFA would risk their power base by allowing clubs opt for the LOI. it is extremely unlikely the EUFA/FIFA would recognize a move without IFA approval.

    Much as I would like to see his happen, I don't believe it likely anytime soon.
    Point of order - the RUC lifted any objections, on security grounds, to matches in the brandywell before Derry left the Irish league. It was the clubs vetoed playing there. The same clubs that rejected the reapplication every year, until the loi application.

    I don't know if it's true but remember being told they eventually made a rule about clubs owning or having long term leases on their grounds, so they could refuse without being accused of sectarianism. This must have changed recently, because it was used to refuse oxford admission to their championship, when they wanted to name brandywell as their stadium, but doesn't seem to be an issue for stute.

    All of which is why returning to the IL is a non starter for many Derry fans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by A N Mouse View Post
    Point of order - the RUC lifted any objections, on security grounds, to matches in the brandywell before Derry left the Irish league. It was the clubs vetoed playing there. The same clubs that rejected the reapplication every year, until the loi application.

    I don't know if it's true but remember being told they eventually made a rule about clubs owning or having long term leases on their grounds, so they could refuse without being accused of sectarianism. This must have changed recently, because it was used to refuse oxford admission to their championship, when they wanted to name brandywell as their stadium, but doesn't seem to be an issue for stute.

    All of which is why returning to the IL is a non starter for many Derry fans.
    OK neither time nor place for THAT debate but “security concerns” was cited by clubs as a concern in the 70s/80s.
    Derry are now too well established in LOI to return to IL but I believe the IFA would have than. Lack of League place (in IL) would be only grounds EUFA night consider a Belfast Celtic request but that won’t happen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marinobohs View Post
    OK neither time nor place for THAT debate but “security concerns” was cited by clubs as a concern in the 70s/80s.
    Clubs from a unionist background raised 'security concerns', whilst the people legally in charge of security at the time said there were no genuine security concerns. I know which view I'd give more credit to

    Quote Originally Posted by marinobohs View Post
    Derry are now too well established in LOI to return to IL but I believe the IFA would have than.
    The Irish League would have Derry City back in a heartbeat. Derry get bigger crowds than any team in the Irish League does. Also - the Irish League is made up almost entirely of teams from unionist areas, and with supporters from a unionist identity - as can be seen clearly from the emblems displayed at games . Of the 36 teams that make up the 3 divisions in the Irish League, only 7 or 8 teams could be considered as coming from areas that are predominantly nationalist/catholic. So the Irish League is in danger of becoming ghettoised as a largely unionist pastime, despite the fact NI is on the verge of having a catholic majority population. Adding Derry City to their pyramid would certainly help address that.

    Quote Originally Posted by marinobohs View Post
    Lack of League place (in IL) would be only grounds EUFA night consider a Belfast Celtic request but that won’t happen.
    A clear legal precedent on this was set in 1994, which stated that under EU competition and restraint of trade laws there is nothing to stop a club from one footballing jurisdiction plying its trade (i.e. playing competitively) in another footballing jurisdiction, so long as the rules were followed on it joining that new jurisdiction. So whilst the UK remains under the influence of EU law, there is legally nothing to stop a club in the north playing in the south.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EatYerGreens View Post
    A clear legal precedent on this was set in 1994, which stated that under EU competition and restraint of trade laws there is nothing to stop a club from one footballing jurisdiction plying its trade (i.e. playing competitively) in another footballing jurisdiction, so long as the rules were followed on it joining that new jurisdiction. So whilst the UK remains under the influence of EU law, there is legally nothing to stop a club in the north playing in the south.
    Who set the precedent out of interest?
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    Quote Originally Posted by marinobohs View Post
    OK neither time nor place for THAT debate but “security concerns” was cited by clubs as a concern in the 70s/80s.
    Derry are now too well established in LOI to return to IL but I believe the IFA would have than. Lack of League place (in IL) would be only grounds EUFA night consider a Belfast Celtic request but that won’t happen.
    Security concerns may have been part of Derry leaving the IL, but to claim it as reason for their applying to join the LOI is just plain wrong.

    These same clubs, during this time, were having serious incidents inside their grounds. None as serious the one decades before that lead to the original Belfast Celtic to leave. But ten years before they left Derry were in a cup final, the majority of city fans stayed away. So those that went were severally outnumber by linfield fans. All well and good? Except Derry were playing Distillery.

    You can't expect to talk about a club looking to call themselves Belfast Celtic - btw should never happen for this shower at any level - and bring in Derry joining the LOI and not talk about this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by holidaysong View Post
    Who set the precedent out of interest?
    The 'exiled' Welsh clubs - led by Newport County - who took the FA of Wales to the High Court for being banned from playing English pyramid games in stadiums in Wales.

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    Forgetting about the legitimacy issues of the claims and the fact we'd have the same sized pie but cut more ways for a minute.

    If we did have Newry City, Belfast Celtic and the 6 junior clubs who have clubs at National League level - Kildare, Kerry, Mayo, Carlow-Kilkenny and Cavan-Monaghan.

    The league would be in a much, much better place. Carlow and Kilkenny gave it a go previously. Maybe under a regime that didn't spend 40k on Ritz Carlton in Dubai and Man UTD tickets and designer clothes for the GF and instead actually invested prize money, sponsorship and TV money in to the league we could sustain these 8 new clubs (or at least maybe 4 of them) and all of a sudden we have 2 leagues of 12 and there's a much great "National" feel to the league. No more Dublin teams and teams in counties with huge potential ready to be tapped in to.

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    Seasoned Pro Nesta99's Avatar
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    Just out of interest what sort of crowds do Institute get, and have their crowds changed much since moving to The Brandywell? Also is there any cross community support with the two clubs or is support very much along political/religious lines? In the distant future if ever there was an All Island league, would there be any scope for the two Derry sides merging in that enviornment especially if the smaller club was going to get cut loose and potentially flounder. Derry is big enough to have 2 clubs of course but not 2 competative clubs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nesta99 View Post
    Just out of interest what sort of crowds do Institute get, and have their crowds changed much since moving to The Brandywell? Also is there any cross community support with the two clubs or is support very much along political/religious lines? In the distant future if ever there was an All Island league, would there be any scope for the two Derry sides merging in that enviornment especially if the smaller club was going to get cut loose and potentially flounder. Derry is big enough to have 2 clubs of course but not 2 competative clubs.
    Crowds are around 500 this year, and you do see a few people in Derry gear within that. For quite a few games the away fans out-number the home.

    Stute would get 'support' (i.e more curiousity) from a range of people, but the club is fundamentally very small. As for a merger - there's zero chance of that, and sure what would be the point ? To what end ? On the very rare occasion that Derry want a Stute player, they usually get them transferred (e.g. McCrudden), but the flow is almost entirely in the other direction. Stute are a bit like a Derry B side tbh. It would be like asking why don't Cobh and Cork merge.

    When there's an AIL Stute will be nowhere near the top division, whereas Derry would hope to be there perennially.

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    I wasnt really suggesting a merger as much as trying to figure out how the general perception among the Derry public could be down the line. If the lines are blurring between the communities that support the respective clubs. Are those crowds down from after the move to the Brandywell? As you say 'stute are like Derry B so if the circumstances are right a merger will be mooted at some point. It will probably happen with a few other clubs especially at Junior level with a proper AIL pyramid system and will be suggested for some senior clubs. Not likely to happen with a fan backlash but Newry and Warrenpoint, Derry and Stute, Cobh and Cork even. I'd like to see Dundalk push toward Monaghan-Cavan as their route to senior football. Pie in the sky talk really but at least its not about Delaney or Breit!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nesta99 View Post
    I wasnt really suggesting a merger as much as trying to figure out how the general perception among the Derry public could be down the line. If the lines are blurring between the communities that support the respective clubs. Are those crowds down from after the move to the Brandywell? As you say 'stute are like Derry B so if the circumstances are right a merger will be mooted at some point.
    I think Stute would be seen as more unionist-supported, but that's essentially because of the area they were located in, rather than by design or actions of their fans.
    The move to the Brandywell will have changed the demographic of their support. It's now in a more populated area, within walking distance of the city centre, which really helps.
    I'd hazard a guess, that half of the 500 odd people at Stute match this Saturday will have been in the Brandywell the night before for the City match. There's a decent enough crossover of support.

    Whether a formal arrangement between the clubs would go down well with Stute fans, I don't know. It'd be a hard sell.
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    Quote Originally Posted by brendy_éire View Post
    I think Stute would be seen as more unionist-supported, but that's essentially because of the area they were located in, rather than by design or actions of their fans.
    To an extent - though don't forget that the club grew out of the Presbyterian YMCA in the city, and still uses the symbol of the Presbyterian Church as their crest.

    The club is largely viewed as neutral, but does have strongly unionist roots. I would also question whether they'd have bothered with (or been accepted into) senior football had Derry City been in the Irish League at the time. They were very much seen as a way for the IFA to address the embarrassing lack of an IL presence in NI's second city.

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    Its where my thinking was, that if being located in the Brandywell over a protracted period of time, that the catchment area will blur the lines between Derry City and Institute support especially if as you say the club didnt exist first as a community's religious/political badge, it just happened to be located in one community. 50% of an Institute gate is already also part of the previous nights Derry City gate and that could evolve to the point where where there is such a crossover in support that any potential merger would be a hard sell to the club and IFA not the supporters in due course. It would be an interesting project if the clubs did merge but had teams represent 'Derry City' in both LoI and IL. An All-Island club with teams in two different jurisdictions. Again Im not floating the idea as much as find the concept interesting and its a name change for one arm of Derry City football when you consider the raised profile, general appeal in Derry for Saturday football etc. Under normal circumstances there are probably UEFA rules that would stump the idea but the GFA does seem to be able to trump a lot of rules and maybe even this too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nesta99 View Post
    Its where my thinking was, that if being located in the Brandywell over a protracted period of time, that the catchment area will blur the lines between Derry City and Institute support especially if as you say the club didnt exist first as a community's religious/political badge, it just happened to be located in one community. 50% of an Institute gate is already also part of the previous nights Derry City gate and that could evolve to the point where where there is such a crossover in support that any potential merger would be a hard sell to the club and IFA not the supporters in due course. It would be an interesting project if the clubs did merge but had teams represent 'Derry City' in both LoI and IL. An All-Island club with teams in two different jurisdictions. Again Im not floating the idea as much as find the concept interesting and its a name change for one arm of Derry City football when you consider the raised profile, general appeal in Derry for Saturday football etc. Under normal circumstances there are probably UEFA rules that would stump the idea but the GFA does seem to be able to trump a lot of rules and maybe even this too.
    Nesta - you need to move on from this. There is no chance of Derry and Stute merging. Neither appetite nor need for it. You may as well ask if Shamrock Rovers and Cabinteely will be merge, Cork and Cobh, or Man United and Salford City.

    As for support - it is very much largely in one direction. You'll find lots of Derry fans prepared to go to watch Stute - even though the standard of football isn't great. I'll be there on Saturday, for example. But I'd be surprised if there was a similar interest amongst Stute fans in going to watch Derry City.

    And most Derry fans have no interest in their own club playing in the Irish league either.

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    I would have thought that there should be a huge potential for a West Belfast Senior club , but Donegal Celtic have been chugging along with poor enough support other than cup runs. The FAI will not be picking a row with the IFA (or anyone else) anytime soon, so a cod Belfast Celtic club in the LOI is pie in the sky nonsense.
    It would be great to get a Setanta Cup type competition back though , some great way trips to Coleraine, the Oval and Windsor back in the day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EatYerGreens View Post
    Nesta - you need to move on from this. There is no chance of Derry and Stute merging. Neither appetite nor need for it. You may as well ask if Shamrock Rovers and Cabinteely will be merge, Cork and Cobh, or Man United and Salford City.

    As for support - it is very much largely in one direction. You'll find lots of Derry fans prepared to go to watch Stute - even though the standard of football isn't great. I'll be there on Saturday, for example. But I'd be surprised if there was a similar interest amongst Stute fans in going to watch Derry City.

    And most Derry fans have no interest in their own club playing in the Irish league either.
    Did you read my post!? Yes it is off topic and by all means pull me up on that but if you are going to quote and comment at least have the manners to read what is posted but I will make it easy for you by pointing to two comments " Pie in the sky talk really but at least its not about Delaney or Breit!!" and "Again Im not floating the idea as much as find the concept interesting"

    Am I not a not allowed ask questions, seek opinion, offer an opinion on what I feel would be an interesting situation, speculate on future evolution on clubs and leagues? Do you know how the landscape will be in the distant future?

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    In fairness the Internet is the place for streams of consciousness,
    The problem with merging clubs like Cobh and Cork , or Derry and institute is the scale of one dwarfs the other so it ends up being like the smaller club closed down.

    I think "franchise" type new clubs have more of a chance, the buzz around the "Belfast Celtic" name alone shows that but its hard to pull off in a country this size, where most of the large urban areas already have a team ..or several.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nesta99 View Post
    Did you read my post!? Yes it is off topic and by all means pull me up on that but if you are going to quote and comment at least have the manners to read what is posted but I will make it easy for you by pointing to two comments " Pie in the sky talk really but at least its not about Delaney or Breit!!" and "Again Im not floating the idea as much as find the concept interesting"

    Am I not a not allowed ask questions, seek opinion, offer an opinion on what I feel would be an interesting situation, speculate on future evolution on clubs and leagues? Do you know how the landscape will be in the distant future?
    You're perfectly allowed to ask questions my friend.

    Just like I'm allowed to tell you need to move on when the question's been answered for you but you continue to ask it anyway

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbgawa View Post
    In fairness the Internet is the place for streams of consciousness,
    The problem with merging clubs like Cobh and Cork , or Derry and institute is the scale of one dwarfs the other so it ends up being like the smaller club closed down.

    I think "franchise" type new clubs have more of a chance, the buzz around the "Belfast Celtic" name alone shows that but its hard to pull off in a country this size, where most of the large urban areas already have a team ..or several.
    The problem in Ireland isn't so much that all the large urban areas already have a team, and more that there really aren't very many large urban areas in the first place.

    Football is an urban sport, and the fifth biggest city in the Republic is Waterford (population below 50,000). There just realistically aren't enough people and urban areas in the Republic to have a much bigger viable LOI. That's why an all-island league of some sort is the only way forward IMO. Drawing in new teams (in LOI terms) from new areas with the sort of urban populations that make football potentially viable.

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    with institute in the brandywell is this a permanent move altogether? their old ground was that far on the other side of the river foyle?
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