players wages

[legendz]

3,000 and 5,000 as in attendances.

[Spudulika]

It all depends on what you consider a pro set-up. Do you mean players getting paid a decent wage and working part-time, but that their work is related or worked around their football? LOI fans and pundits have been banging on about this for years - the Rosenborg model - however they had big backing from public and private sources and good crowds. So the only way to do it is by being clever with what the govenrment has on offer and work it so that your clubs players have the little extra that makes a difference between part-time and pro, recovery! Many moons ago I moved from a part-time club where I fitted my football duties around work. Then for a little over 3 months I was a full-time pro and the difference in my performance jumped, and it was all down to recovery. Instead of limping into work and throwing some food into myself for training, I was able to prepare myself for training and matches properly. This can be done in Ireland, though it takes planning and a league wide ruling to not mess with double contracts or pver payments.

[legendz]

A proper pro set-up for any club as I would see it is players being paid a decent enough wage that they are professional footballers. People's view on a decent wage would vary. The average industrial wage used to be in and around €30000 per year, they'd want to be on that at least, especially the first team, clubs near the top of the league possibly double/treble the amount.
I'm just throwing these figures out there, I'm sure there is a whole lot more to it.

[dong]

A proper pro set-up for any club as I would see it is players being paid a decent enough wage that they are professional footballers. People's view on a decent wage would vary. The average industrial wage used to be in and around €30000 per year, they'd want to be on that at least, especially the first team, clubs near the top of the league possibly double/treble the amount.
I'm just throwing these figures out there, I'm sure there is a whole lot more to it.

I could be wrong but I'd imagine the most a player could expect when signing a new contract these days would be around thirty grand. Going by the crowds most clubs are getting it surely couldn't or shouldn't be much more.
The days of 500 fans at a game and a few players on 70 - 80 grand are over, or at least should be for now.

[legendz]

I could be wrong but I'd imagine the most a player could expect when signing a new contract these days would be around thirty grand. Going by the crowds most clubs are getting it surely couldn't or shouldn't be much more.
The days of 500 fans at a game and a few players on 70 - 80 grand are over, or at least should be for now.

500 fans, players on 70 - 80 grand, that's crazy stuff!!
Throwing out rough figures, if you have 18 home league games in a season, 3000 fans regularly paying €15 a game, this equates to €810000. There's lots then not being thrown in the mix, league bonuses, cup runs, tax on income, season ticket rates, European bonuses and sponsors etc.
Anyways at €810000 gates income, 60% for player wages would equate to €486000. If 60% of this then was on the first team divided by 11 players, it'd equate to €291600/11 = €26,500.
Very rough figures I have to stress but it more or less goes to show, to entertain any sort of full-time set-up, you've got to be getting regular gates of 3,000 punters through the turnstiles.
In the LoI, including clubs possibly to make a comeback, Shamrock Rovers, Bohemians, Derry City and Cork City seem the only clubs capable of getting these numbers in terms of support. Some would even hope to look at double the 3,000 I mention.
Fingal in the long-term could become a big club in North Dublin. Limerick and Galway are cities of disappointment at present.
The main point I am trying to make is that a pro set-up shouldn't be that unattainable for a number of clubs. If the game was run better, the country is capable of a Premier Division with most of its clubs run on a pro set-up.

[Spudulika]

Legendz please don't take this as a smart ar$e response, it's something I had to say at a board/committee meeting of a club almost 2 months ago and it caused ructions. Running a football club isn't like playing Football Manager, there are so many intangibles and problems that i't's a constant juggling act and in my experience clubs with the biggest and best admin staff have always been the most successful and progressive. One thing, in your post, that you haven't accounted for is tax! Now, that means you're perfect for a job as a CEO of an Irish club (joke :-)). You've only accounted for 11 players in your first team, when you'd need to carry a squad of 16 minimum. Also in terms of ticket prices you would need to deduct season ticket holders, freebies, promo's etc. This model won't work in the LOI for a full time set up, mainly because clubs are largely incapable of running their business in a way that would even resemble clever.

There is a way for clubs to build from a low base to become largely professional, to use what the government has to offer and work from there. Especially if they don't have a large benefactor or gates. However this needs to come from the FAI down, and enforced!

[legendz]

Legendz please don't take this as a smart ar$e response, it's something I had to say at a board/committee meeting of a club almost 2 months ago and it caused ructions. Running a football club isn't like playing Football Manager, there are so many intangibles and problems that i't's a constant juggling act and in my experience clubs with the biggest and best admin staff have always been the most successful and progressive. One thing, in your post, that you haven't accounted for is tax! Now, that means you're perfect for a job as a CEO of an Irish club (joke :-)). You've only accounted for 11 players in your first team, when you'd need to carry a squad of 16 minimum. Also in terms of ticket prices you would need to deduct season ticket holders, freebies, promo's etc. This model won't work in the LOI for a full time set up, mainly because clubs are largely incapable of running their business in a way that would even resemble clever.

There is a way for clubs to build from a low base to become largely professional, to use what the government has to offer and work from there. Especially if they don't have a large benefactor or gates. However this needs to come from the FAI down, and enforced!

Spudulika, I don't think you read my post fully:

500 fans, players on 70 - 80 grand, that's crazy stuff!!
Throwing out rough figures, if you have 18 home league games in a season, 3000 fans regularly paying €15 a game, this equates to €810000. There's lots then not being thrown in the mix, league bonuses, cup runs, tax on income, season ticket rates, European bonuses and sponsors etc.
Anyways at €810000 gates income, 60% for player wages would equate to €486000. If 60% of this then was on the first team divided by 11 players, it'd equate to €291600/11 = €26,500.
Very rough figures I have to stress but it more or less goes to show, to entertain any sort of full-time set-up, you've got to be getting regular gates of 3,000 punters through the turnstiles.
In the LoI, including clubs possibly to make a comeback, Shamrock Rovers, Bohemians, Derry City and Cork City seem the only clubs capable of getting these numbers in terms of support. Some would even hope to look at double the 3,000 I mention.
Fingal in the long-term could become a big club in North Dublin. Limerick and Galway are cities of disappointment at present.
The main point I am trying to make is that a pro set-up shouldn't be that unattainable for a number of clubs. If the game was run better, the country is capable of a Premier Division with most of its clubs run on a pro set-up.

Spudulika, I think I covered most of the points you raised in my original post.
I admitted first I was using rough figures.
I admitted and gave examples of intangibles not added.
Tax was one example I gave as was season ticket prices not part of the equation used, fully admitted.
When I gave a figure for gate-receipts, I did mention using 60% of it for player wages and then 60% of that for the first-team, leaving 40% for the rest of the squad at whatever rate.
The main reason for the post, with the rough figures, was to show the level of consistent support a club would need to pay certain wages. I believe clubs run well by themselves with no need for much FAI input can run well on their own.

[peadar1987]

Not to forget that more fans at games=more exposure=more sponsorship and more lucrative TV deals. It's not just matchday revenue, as important as that may be.

[Spudulika]

Legendz, I understood and appreciated that it was a guesstimation, and that the figures were rough, however it's never as cut and dried and clubs will continue to get into difficulty without a firm plan. In essence I agree that there doesn't need to be too much input from the FAI, after all they make a pigs ear of their own operations at times, however they will always have a major influence and yet shirk certain responsibilities. They have to stand over the salary protocol, they have to enforce stadium safety, they have to oversee player and staff movement and registration etc, so in such a small and weak market as our own, they should put together an overall plan that will ensure clubs spend within their means. To do this they can use what the government offers and actually create employment, solid clubs and be a good news story for a change. Heaven knows Ireland needs some good news for a change, our government mouth piece (RTE) indulge themselves in depression inducing fratricidal debate and misery, so maybe the LOI can step up with the GAA, rugby and boxing to provide regular cheer? The FAI can reclaim a large chunk of public respect and build a better league from it all.

[legendz]

I was of the understanding clubs could not spend more than 60-65% of revenue on player wages? That is already a step in the right direction for clubs to spend within their means. I agree it's not cut and dried but I would imagine getting regular support of 3000 would help any business plan and be a good base to work with.

[legendz]

Not to forget that more fans at games=more exposure=more sponsorship and more lucrative TV deals. It's not just matchday revenue, as important as that may be.

That's all true, there is way more to it than matchday revenue. I just wanted to take away everything and look at the fan-base and see what rough figure that'd come up with. With the figure I got, tax would be taken off but then there are the other sources of income and expenses as well.
In terms of getting a number for consistent support needed, I think 3000 is a good number.

[peadar1987]

I was of the understanding clubs could not spend more than 60-65% of revenue on player wages? That is already a step in the right direction for clubs to spend within their means. I agree it's not cut and dried but I would imagine getting regular support of 3000 would help any business plan and be a good base to work with.

The problem is that there's some doubt about whether this is being enforced or not. And there are always loopholes. There's the famous one where a player gets paid a tenner a month of playing football, and then gets paid €1000 a week for cleaning one glass in the bar. I think that's been closed, but there's still the impression that the FAI are unwilling to come down hard on clubs who break the rules, in spite of what happened to Cork and Derry last season. I find it hard to believe that Bohs will stay below the salary cap this year through entirely above-board methods, for example, but I have doubts about whether the FAI will have the nads to relegate possible champions. (Again!)

[legendz]

It'd be ironic if a Boh's demotion resulted in a Shel's promotion!

[howsyourtouch]

i know pats have an average of around 450 a week wages, which is good money for any young lad playing football!

[John83]

It'd be ironic if a Boh's demotion resulted in a Shel's promotion!

No, it wouldn't.

It would be funny though.

[hedderman]

Give me Dalyer over Tolka any day.

[pineapple stu]

No, it wouldn't.

It would be funny though.

Won't happen though. Precedence is that the Premier team is saved from relegation before the First Division team is promoted.

[marinobohs]

The problem is that there's some doubt about whether this is being enforced or not. And there are always loopholes. There's the famous one where a player gets paid a tenner a month of playing football, and then gets paid €1000 a week for cleaning one glass in the bar. I think that's been closed, but there's still the impression that the FAI are unwilling to come down hard on clubs who break the rules, in spite of what happened to Cork and Derry last season. I find it hard to believe that Bohs will stay below the salary cap this year through entirely above-board methods, for example, but I have doubts about whether the FAI will have the nads to relegate possible champions. (Again!)

If what we do (or are alledged to do) is "above board methods" why would the FAI even consider relegating us ? For sticking by the rules ? Lots of examples of clubs breaking rules so strange you pick one that hasn't

PS not Champions yet either

[Schumi]

Won't happen though. Precedence is that the Premier team is saved from relegation before the First Division team is promoted.

Whoever loses the playoff is surely next in line, just happened to be a premier club last year.

If what we do (or are alledged to do) is "above board methods" why would the FAI even consider relegating us ? For sticking by the rules ? Lots of examples of clubs breaking rules so strange you pick one that hasn't

I think you misread his post. He said that he doesn't think Bohs will be under the salary cap using above board methods.

[pineapple stu]

Whoever loses the playoff is surely next in line, just happened to be a premier club last year.

Oh yeah. I'm getting confused by Bry staying up twice last year, I think. That, and there being no play-off when Shels kicked the bucket.