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  1. #241
    Capped Player SkStu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ontheotherhand View Post
    He shouldn't have to.

    'White nationalist' is a term with meaning beyond the two words stuck together so your logic and comparison fails.

    It's the same as telling a man with fake tan on that he is a Unionist. He might be an orange man but he is not an Orangeman.

    'White nationalism' in the sense used to describe Stephen Miller and the other racists in Trump's menagerie of ******* is, as you well know, a term that describes a white supremacist idealogy.

    Instead of deflecting, why dont you go back over the posts so far and supply any evidence at all to support your arguments? Bonus points if the evidence has sources and comes from reputable places. 0 points if your evidence comes from a source that promoted "pizzagate" or any other right wing nutjob nonsense.
    Why don't you offer evidence to support your assertion that Miller or Trump or all these other racists in Trumps administration are white nationalists with a white supremacist ideology?

    Because, you know, the numbers suggest that Trumps policies are benefitting minorities and his approval rating with these minorities is has increased since election day. Unemployment continues to decrease for minority groups, wages have grown 4.3% for nonwhites (more growth than whites). Approval among minorities has grown approximately 33% since September 2017 according to an article i am looking at. As supposed white nationalists, they also seem to have done quite a lot for Jewish America and Israel generally. I am also sure that well-educated, well-spoken conservative black leaders like Candace Owens and Thomas Sowell would disagree wholeheartedly with your assertion about Trump and his team being white supremacists.

    So i look forward to the evidence to support your claims which appear to be plucked from the left wing libtard nonsense mongers. 0 points if your evidence comes from Joy Behar or Whoopi Goldberg.

    Quote Originally Posted by peadar1987 View Post
    If players had said they were kneeling as a protest against, say, the homelessness crisis, y'know, I think most people would absolutely respect that.

    Irish people aren't as precious about our flag and anthem as many Americans seem to be. Heck, loads of Unionists literally burn tricolours on the 12th of July and the reaction of most Irish people is mild amusement and pity at the ignorant, hateful dinosaurs.
    In fairness Peadar, people still go on about Matt Holland singing GSTQ and then wearing the green. Or players not bothering to learn the anthem. We can be pretty precious. If someone took a knee, it would not be markedly different to how it essentially was in America - 33% saying "f*ck yeah" for a perceived good cause, 33% saying "keep it the f*ck out of sports" because they thought he was being stupid and 33% saying "who the f*ck cares". I am not sure what the other 1% were saying.
    Last edited by dahamsta; 20/01/2020 at 1:14 PM. Reason: Merging Posts

  2. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkStu View Post
    Why don't you offer evidence to support your assertion that Miller or Trump or all these other racists in Trumps administration are white nationalists with a white supremacist ideology?

    Because, you know, the numbers suggest that Trumps policies are benefitting minorities and his approval rating with these minorities is has increased since election day. Unemployment continues to decrease for minority groups, wages have grown 4.3% for nonwhites (more growth than whites). Approval among minorities has grown approximately 33% since September 2017 according to an article i am looking at. As supposed white nationalists, they also seem to have done quite a lot for Jewish America and Israel generally. I am also sure that well-educated, well-spoken conservative black leaders like Candace Owens and Thomas Sowell would disagree wholeheartedly with your assertion about Trump and his team being white supremacists.

    So i look forward to the evidence to support your claims which appear to be plucked from the left wing libtard nonsense mongers. 0 points if your evidence comes from Joy Behar or Whoopi Goldberg.
    Sure thing - https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/...-leaked-emails

    But I'm still waiting on any evidence at all from Mark.

    And "libtard"?....my god man grow up. If you read back over my posts you'll see the sources used are as unbiased as you're likely to find these days. The most liberal minded was probably the Latimes but the article included sources and was generally well researched in my opinion.

    Can you share your sources for the above claims? Again, read back and you'll see that I said good things have happened. Of course they have, you'd have to really **** everyone over here to get consensus disapproval. It's the nature of the beast in a two party system where the media exists to divide and conquer.

    >Unemployment decreasing could be great but the labor force participation rate has stayed pretty much the same. Could be good, could be bad. Could be a lot of people in the labor force are working part-time jobs. https://www.investopedia.com/ask/ans...yment-rate.asp

    >"Wage growth for non-whites" - that sounds really positive - can you elaborate on where it started, what it looks like now, what sorts of jobs etc?

    >"Done a lot for Jewish America and Israel generally"? Ok.......if you can be more specific I'd love to hear it. As far as I know, Jews aren't huge fans of neonazis parading in the streets but I'm sure a portion enjoyed the relocation of the embassy. Swings and roundabouts I guess?
    Support for Trump among Jews has not increased according to Gallup - https://news.gallup.com/opinion/poll...cs-israel.aspx

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  4. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkStu View Post
    In fairness Peadar, people still go on about Matt Holland singing GSTQ and then wearing the green. Or players not bothering to learn the anthem. We can be pretty precious. If someone took a knee, it would not be markedly different to how it essentially was in America - 33% saying "f*ck yeah" for a perceived good cause, 33% saying "keep it the f*ck out of sports" because they thought he was being stupid and 33% saying "who the f*ck cares". I am not sure what the other 1% were saying.

    I think the 1% left were probably just sitting back and watching their media investment portfolios skyrocket with all the attention the issue got. Or playing Fortnite.

  5. #244
    Capped Player SkStu's Avatar
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    sure thing - https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/ar...for-minorities (a fair enough source, i hope . November 6 2019 so a little dated but i dont think much has changed).

    I used libtard as a response to you using right wing nutjob. If its good enough for you to use insults or labels then i am going to do it too. It was sort of tongue in cheek though. Fairs fair like.

    To be honest, i have read a good bit (not all) of the link but, as a source, it has its challenges. Firstly, the SPLC is about as biased/questionable a source as you can get.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...549_story.html
    https://twitter.com/GovMikeHuckabee/...79359055364101
    https://www.politico.com/magazine/st...-center-215312
    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/25/u...aves-splc.html

    But also, while the post is full of insinuation and inference, in terms of what is pulled from the emails, it is also flimsy enough. It appears to be this McHugh lady who is the main antagonist and Miller a willing idiot. However there is a lot in here that is not a good look for Miller I do agree. His history bothers me. I do appreciate you sending this on.

    What i would say generally though is that Trump and his administration have not made the lives of minorities living in America worse which would kind of be the mandate for a white supremacist president and team. They do have policies against illegal immigration that I personally believe is an overall fair position but it doesnt make it so that the administration can be accused of being white nationalists or having white supremacist ideology.

    Sorry - edit - i also didnt mean to accuse you of being a libtard - thats not what i meant at all but i see it could be how it was taken. And it seems that we also agree on the US mainstream media being a problem and, my take, the most divisive institution of all!!

    Quote Originally Posted by ontheotherhand View Post
    I think the 1% left were probably just sitting back and watching their media investment portfolios skyrocket with all the attention the issue got. Or playing Fortnite.
    learning to floss?
    Last edited by dahamsta; 20/01/2020 at 1:14 PM. Reason: Merging Posts

  6. #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkStu View Post
    learning to floss?
    Cheers SkStu. I also was not referring to Mark or indeed yourself right wing nutjobs. As a bohs fan you're far worse!......

    The Miller stuff was leaked everywhere so I just picked a source which had collated it well but fair point on the SPLC.

    Anyway some debates are better over a pint and turn a bit hostile on forums. You've raised good points and certainly have a better grasp of a few areas than I would claim to. Fair play for keeping it civil.

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  8. #246
    The Cheeto God Real ale Madrid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkStu View Post
    Why don't you offer evidence to support your assertion that Miller or Trump or all these other racists in Trumps administration are white nationalists with a white supremacist ideology?

    Because, you know, the numbers suggest that Trumps policies are benefitting minorities and his approval rating with these minorities is has increased since election day.
    Not sure I understand the point you are making there Stu - I'm not sure because employment is going up that Trump has not filled his administration with White nationalists - I'm not sure how you could ever prove one against the other - its whataboutery. Oh more African Americans and Hispanics are working now than 3 years ago - how could there be white nationalists in the white house?
    If a dog weighs under 50 lbs it's a cat, and cats are useless.

  9. #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by mark12345 View Post
    My original questions to Stutts were - Do you love Ireland and Are you white?

    Simple enough really. And who would have guessed that in 2020 it is bad to be white and love your country?
    It may not be part of the discourse in Ireland (I really hope it's not) but unfortunately, that's not the case in America.
    You have politicians standing in front of the country, putting the words 'white' and 'nationalist' together and using them as a catchphrase to marginalize people and cast them as guilty of some sort of evil disposition.
    The flag is now desecrated while others kneel for the national anthem. Why? Because they are symbols of one nation (united) under a common goal. And unity and harmony is something they just cannot abide (if you doubt that listen out for those words on CNN or MSNBC. You'll be listening for a very long time - in truth Fox News hardly ever mentions them either).

    Could you imagine the reaction of the crowd at the Aviva if kneeling for the national anthem and/or disrespecting the flag ever happened at an international game?

    Unfortunately, too many of us are all falling into their trap (ie using the term 'white nationalist' ourselves long enough so it becomes reality. It was never a reality - it's made up as a means to an end. As I said no one even uttered those words until a few months ago).

    How damaging can these catchphrases be?

    Well in 2012 a black teenager was killed in Florida. The man who killed him (in self-defence) was the son of an American father and Peruvian mother. He had a Hispanic complexion.
    At any other time and under any other circumstance he would have been called a Hispanic male and this would have been a non-story. But the media outdid themselves in this instance, categorising him as "White Hispanic." No one in America had ever heard that label before that day in 2012, and regular people were looking at one another in a comical "you learn something new every day" tone. But that didn't matter to our friends in the media who had an agenda to follow and did their best to try and convict this man (George Zimmerman) in the court of public opinion. They succeeded. Their narrative caught on like wildfire. Obama was moved to speak about the case, protest groups came and did their thing and shortly afterwards BLM was formed.

    That term "White Hispanic" as I say was never heard before that day in 2012, and it has never been heard since.

    So just like the term "White Hispanic" was designed to forward an agenda and to hell with the life of an innocent man, the media and their friends in politics are using a dangerous manufactured term ("White Nationalist") to once again divide the country. Because a divided people with perceived victimhood are much easier to influence at the ballot box.
    Mark, I'd answer the same as ontheotherhand!

    White nationalist is very much a term associated with far right ideology, lots of anti-immigrant rhetoric and exaggerated sense of patriotism. Tommy Robinson and his fan-boys would be a good example over here in the UK, where I live.

    Without getting into a slagging match, I am white and a very proud Irishman, but not a nationalist in the political sense. I am very sceptical of any nationalist politics. I think people get duped by politicians claiming love of country and this is a trend down the centuries. I think English nationalism was a critical factor in the Brexit referendum. I have always been cautious of the more nationalist parties in any country: FF at home, and it's usuallly the Conservative equivalents abroad.

    George Orwell had a famous essay "Notes on Nationalism" which is free to read online. It's still highly relevant today in my opinion. One great line was something like "the English Conservative will fight tooth and nail for his own sovereignty whilst simultaneously trying to deny it to others".

    Quote Originally Posted by SkStu View Post
    In fairness Peadar, people still go on about Matt Holland singing GSTQ and then wearing the green. Or players not bothering to learn the anthem. We can be pretty precious. If someone took a knee, it would not be markedly different to how it essentially was in America - 33% saying "f*ck yeah" for a perceived good cause, 33% saying "keep it the f*ck out of sports" because they thought he was being stupid and 33% saying "who the f*ck cares". I am not sure what the other 1% were saying.
    I'm not sure. I'd say if, say, a traveller footballer made a stand after a grave miscarriage of justice or race-motivated shooting or Garda negligence/inertia at the expense of a the travelling community I think the Irish would be fair enough to recognise the grievance and wouldn't go to town on it. I can't see Michael D getting up on his high horse over it.

    btw, I thought Trump's remarks to a Jewish gathering last year, along the lines of "how can Jews vote Democrats, they'll cost you money?" was a bit close to the bone.

    Quote Originally Posted by SkStu View Post
    And it seems that we also agree on the US mainstream media being a problem and, my take, the most divisive institution of all!!
    Back to the thread title I guess: do you regard Fox as mainstream?


    And European stocks hit record highs today. Amazing really what Ursula Von der Leyen has done in her first 6 weeks. British media say Europe is doomed.
    Last edited by dahamsta; 20/01/2020 at 1:15 PM. Reason: Merging Posts

  10. #248
    Capped Player SkStu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Real ale Madrid View Post
    Not sure I understand the point you are making there Stu - I'm not sure because employment is going up that Trump has not filled his administration with White nationalists - I'm not sure how you could ever prove one against the other - its whataboutery. Oh more African Americans and Hispanics are working now than 3 years ago - how could there be white nationalists in the white house?
    RAM - seriously you have to open your mind a bit and engage in the conversation a bit more honestly. If a government had a supremacist (e.g. white nationalist) ideology, their mandate would heavily involve the introduction of policies, directives, legislation and other available instruments to make the lives of, in this example, nonwhites distinctly worse off than they would be under a previous non-white nationalist government. In the most extreme example of how a supremacist ideology works in practice take a look at Hitlers Germany. For a more recent and perhaps relevant example, take a look at the Jim Crow laws in the Democratic south. That is supremacist ideology at work in governance. That is what is being claimed and what you seem to be supporting. If such an administration was in power at the moment, while you wouldnt be seeing such overt practices, you would be seeing policies being implemented that would have a markedly negative impact on a number of obvious lifestyle/societal markers for minorities. The data i have shared supports that this clearly is not happening. Another thing that supports my position on this is the work that Trump has done on prison reform over the last year and a half. That is not the work of a supremacist, white nationalist government. At all. Ever. Reversing laws that were implemented under the Clinton administration that had a huge impact on black and hispanic people and poor communities - or super predators as he called them. I dont happen to think his administration was supremacist though either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuttgart88 View Post
    I'm not sure. I'd say if, say, a traveller footballer made a stand after a grave miscarriage of justice or race-motivated shooting or Garda negligence/inertia at the expense of a the travelling community I think the Irish would be fair enough to recognise the grievance and wouldn't go to town on it. I can't see Michael D getting up on his high horse over it.
    It is interesting that we have to put forward an example that is so extreme and unlikely in order to get to a point where it becomes an example of how tolerant we would be. To be honest, i have given 2 really simple, actual examples of how we, as football fans, have taken offense at a perceived slight towards our anthem and representing our country. An audible minority boo Glasgow Rangers players FFS. I dont think it would be a stretch to think that anything overtly political would get the same type of response as the Kapernick rubbish did in the States. The ratios might be different but there would be all sorts of opinions being offered and i am sure some anti-traveller rhetoric in your extreme example.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuttgart88 View Post
    btw, I thought Trump's remarks to a Jewish gathering last year, along the lines of "how can Jews vote Democrats, they'll cost you money?" was a bit close to the bone.
    I have seen the full clip of that and the context. He was talking to a few in the crowd that he knew from his businessman days and clearly referring to how Dem proposed policies would impact them.

    A lot of you are in the real estate business, because I know you very well. You’re brutal killers, not nice people at all,” he said. “But you have to vote for me—you have no choice. You’re not gonna vote for Pocahontas, I can tell you that. You’re not gonna vote for the wealth tax. Yeah, let’s take 100% of your wealth away!” He continued: “Some of you don’t like me. Some of you I don’t like at all, actually. And you’re going to be my biggest supporters because you’re going to be out of business in about 15 minutes if they get it. So I don’t have to spend a lot of time on that.”
    But, again, I would argue that you would just have to look across the aisle to easily find far more sinister anti-semitic ideology and rhetoric. https://www.wsj.com/articles/can-ilh...ce-11562970265
    [As an aside, the wonderful Ilhan Omar, darling of the leftists in the USA, is in a whole sh1tpile of trouble. Should be fun to see this play out.]

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuttgart88 View Post
    Back to the thread title I guess: do you regard Fox as mainstream?
    Absolutely! But i dont watch much of that either! We only have one tv and the wife controls the remote so its mostly bodice rippers in our house . But seriously, Fox News is mainstream and it is biased conservative. In the same way that CNN and MSNBC and others are biased left. The only difference i see with Fox is that it has a large number of "Never Trumpers" on its payroll so some shows are extremely biased, from the right, against Trump. It also has his loudest mainstream cheerleaders too (Hannity, Levin, Ingraham). I will dip into Fox every once in a while (1-2 shows a week), CNN a lot less so (an hour a week) and i dont have MSNBC. Fox, by the way, absolutely trounces CNN and MSNBC in the ratings. Like, 2 - 3 times the viewership for almost all of the flagship programs. For whatever that is worth. Mainstream is dead now.
    Last edited by SkStu; 17/01/2020 at 2:11 PM.

  11. #249
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    Well, (edited) when I watch Fox I think it's extremist. Way before Trump I simply couldn't believe what I was hearing from Ann Coulter for example, real hateful stuff. I never heard anything similar in other outlets.

    I think you're overplaying how much grievance Irish football fans took in the examples you cited. The extreme example I used was to compare it to the reasons behind Kompernick's actions which were in the context of deaths at the hands of police, and Trump took extreme offence to the protest, largely on nationalistic grounds you'd have to conclude. That's why I said I wouldn't envisage our head of state reacting similarly.

    On White Nationalism, what about Sebastian Gorka? https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-a7581941.html

    Now he IS a right wing nutjob!

    My - now qualified - accusation of Trump is not so much that he is an avowed overt white nationalist - I suspect he is but he hasn't given explicit evidence of it - but that he seems unperturbed by white nationalism in his ranks and has actively sought to appeal to this segment.

    As for yer wan in Minnesota or wherever, I have no interest in supporting her at all. But she's not President.

    And those "now in context" quotes about the Jewish gathering now look worse!

    Look, I know you hate the Left but just criticise the Left so. I see so little to actually like in Trump. I saw nothing at all to like in Corbyn but was still half hoping he'd win because I hate Boris J and his coterie of ESG ultra-nationalist idiots. Yet I wouldn't categorise him as anything other than a deluded stubborn idiot.

    I worry for the US. It's so polarised its unreal. I'm going to engage in shameless whataboutery here though. The first signs of incompatible divisions that I became aware of in the US during my politicallly aware life were a result of Gingrich, Starr et al, and a pretty severe Conservative fundamentalist movement that it spawned, the likes of Paul Ryan, the Tea Party movement etc. I think the Republican party went rogue some time in the 90s or early 2000s. Their Conservative peers here did too, probably earlier. I could easily have been a pre-Thatcher Conservative but not any more. But I've nowhere to go here - there's no northern European style social democracy / mixed economy promoting party in the UK.
    Last edited by Stuttgart88; 17/01/2020 at 4:20 PM.

  12. #250
    Capped Player SkStu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuttgart88 View Post
    Well, (edited) when I watch Fox I think it's extremist. Way before Trump I simply couldn't believe what I was hearing from Ann Coulter for example, real hateful stuff. I never heard anything similar in other outlets.

    I think you're overplaying how much grievance Irish football fans took in the examples you cited. The extreme example I used was to compare it to the reasons behind Kompernick's actions which were in the context of deaths at the hands of police, and Trump took extreme offence to the protest, largely on nationalistic grounds you'd have to conclude. That's why I said I wouldn't envisage our head of state reacting similarly.

    On White Nationalism, what about Sebastian Gorka? https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-a7581941.html

    Now he IS a right wing nutjob!

    My - now qualified - accusation of Trump is not so much that he is an avowed overt white nationalist - I suspect he is but he hasn't given explicit evidence of it - but that he seems unperturbed by white nationalism in his ranks and has actively sought to appeal to this segment.

    As for yer wan in Minnesota or wherever, I have no interest in supporting her at all. But she's not President.

    And those "now in context" quotes about the Jewish gathering now look worse!
    Fair enough. We disagree on the above.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuttgart88 View Post
    Look, I know you hate the Left but just criticise the Left so. I see so little to actually like in Trump. I saw nothing at all to like in Corbyn but was still half hoping he'd win because I hate Boris J and his coterie of ESG ultra-nationalist idiots. Yet I wouldn't categorise him as anything other than a deluded stubborn idiot.
    I think i have been pretty consistent on all of the following. Trump is not likable, hes a buffoon, he is inarticulate and he is also way too loose with his words (I mean that in how he delivers a message - not that he lies, they all do, i dont hold that against him) - he wouldnt know nuance if it hit him in the face. Some people love that, i dont (though it makes me laugh sometimes - or maybe its the reaction that does). I do not think there is any evidence to support a claim of white nationalism in his words or actions before or during his administration. I agree with most of his policies (i.e. greater than half) and disagree with others.

    I do hope (and believe) that he will win again this year because i hate the opposition and all of what they stand for.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuttgart88 View Post
    I worry for the US. It's so polarised its unreal. I'm going to engage in shameless whataboutery here though. The first signs of incompatible divisions that I became aware of in the US during my politicallly aware life were a result of Gingrich, Starr et al, and a pretty severe Conservative fundamentalist movement that it spawned, the likes of Paul Ryan, the Tea Party movement etc. I think the Republican party went rogue some time in the 90s or early 2000s. Their Conservative peers here did too, probably earlier. I could easily have been a pre-Thatcher Conservative but not any more. But I've nowhere to go here - there's no northern European style social democracy / mixed economy promoting party in the UK.
    I hate to put political labels myself because i take a predominantly case-by-case approach to individual issues (an approach that can be a bit too simplistic, admittedly) but if i was to try to articulate my political principles it would probably be most in line with "classical liberalism" as opposed to libertarian or conservative principles. There are some elements that i wouldn't align with (e.g. a strict on a merit-based approach to everything) but its close.

    The USA is polarized, for sure and the gap is growing but i dont know whether we should be worried or not. Theres a Razorlight (apologies) song that makes me laugh when i hear it. It is called America.

    All my life
    Watching America
    All my life
    There's panic in America
    Oh, there's trouble in America
    Oh, there's panic in America, oh
    Plus ca change...
    Last edited by SkStu; 17/01/2020 at 5:14 PM.

  13. #251
    Seasoned Pro peadar1987's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuttgart88 View Post
    there's no northern European style social democracy / mixed economy promoting party in the UK.
    SNP? Come to the dark side, we have haggis

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    Capped Player SkStu's Avatar
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    As an aside, I am watching a great documentary about American politics. I am only about halfway through the first season (which runs in line with the primaries and presidential campaigns. It is a weekly show that was running during the campaigns and gives look behind the scenes and front of scenes. It is really well done and insightful despite its leanings. Made by a Bloomberg Politics so it should be acceptable to all the libtards on here (joke, joke, relax)

    Its called The Circus and its on Showtime.

    Trailer:
    https://youtu.be/kV7qm-jwd-8

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  17. #253
    Director dahamsta's Avatar
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    Rename thread to American Politics, since that's what it is.

    Start a new thread about Fox or 2020 if necessary.

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    The Cheeto God Real ale Madrid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkStu View Post
    RAM - seriously you have to open your mind a bit and engage in the conversation a bit more honestly.
    .
    This type of discourse is becoming typical of those who espouse a certain viewpoint on here. Markonetwothreefourfive is already guilty of it - please don’t start slipping into that modus operandi as if you have this magical perspective no one else has.

    Quote Originally Posted by SkStu View Post
    If a government had a supremacist (e.g. white nationalist) ideology, their mandate would heavily involve the introduction of policies, directives, legislation and other available instruments to make the lives of, in this example, nonwhites distinctly worse off than they would be under a previous non-white nationalist government.
    .
    There are plenty of examples of this type of rhetoric you speak of - only before Christmas - Justin Clark an attorney and one of Trumps senior people was caught on tape re. voter suppression:

    "Traditionally it's always been Republicans suppressing votes in places,"
    "Let's start protecting our voters," he continued, partly referring to Election Day monitoring of polling places. "We know where they are [...] Let's start playing offense a little bit. That's what you're going to see in 2020. It's going to be a much bigger program, a much more aggressive program, a much better-funded program."
    https://www.businessinsider.com/leak...9-12?r=US&IR=T

    Interesting - and by your own definition there distinctly white nationalist ideology.


    Quote Originally Posted by SkStu View Post
    If such an administration was in power at the moment, while you wouldn't be seeing such overt practices, you would be seeing policies being implemented that would have a markedly negative impact on a number of obvious lifestyle/societal markers for minorities.
    .
    Agreed - what you would be seeing are slightly less overt practices and more rhetoric type propaganda. Interesting you brought up the Nazis - they used an economic crash in the 1920's to stir up division and hatred against those perceived to be the enemy. This was furthered by a refusal to accept the Germans lost WWI on the battlefield but were somehow betrayed by German Jews and other 'undesirables' to him such as social democrats. That is how the Nazi party started rampant anti-Semitism in Germany in the 30s.
    You could argue that Trump is trying to divide and demonize along similar lines with his build the wall rhetoric - it is a clear and blatant attempt to demonise all Mexicans as drug dealers and rapists etc - we've gone over 'The Border Wall' before so I won't go there again but another example imo of white Nationalist rhetoric in action.

    Quote Originally Posted by SkStu View Post
    The data i have shared supports that this clearly is not happening. Another thing that supports my position on this is the work that Trump has done on prison reform over the last year and a half. That is not the work of a supremacist, white nationalist government. At all. Ever. Reversing laws that were implemented under the Clinton administration that had a huge impact on black and Hispanic people and poor communities - or super predators as he called them. I don’t happen to think his administration was supremacist though either.
    .
    It doesn’t clearly support anything. It is of course an indicator – but living standards I’ll bet are still well under the norm and I’m not sure the type of employment is conducive to long term growth anyway. Are people earning a living wage? – 80% of Americans live “paycheck to paycheck” – hardly a sweeping reform of life for minorities. Not sure about the prison reform stuff and the reversal of the Clinton admin items – I’ll take your word for that. The General point remains – you can’t offset unemployment stats v General behaviour.
    Last edited by Real ale Madrid; 21/01/2020 at 10:40 AM.
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    Capped Player SkStu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Real ale Madrid View Post
    This type of discourse is becoming typical of those who espouse a certain viewpoint on here. Markonetwothreefourfive is already guilty of it - please don’t start slipping into that modus operandi as if you have this magical perspective no one else has.
    Give me a break. You are trying to position yourself as some sort of victim because i asked you to engage more honestly? If i put forward a simple premise, then i expect people to be able to grasp it and argue it on its merits and not engage in one word or one sentence responses. If you don't then you are either too entrenched or too ignorant to bother with. If you dont like being called out on a crap response then go find a safe space.


    Quote Originally Posted by Real ale Madrid View Post
    There are plenty of examples of this type of rhetoric you speak of - only before Christmas - Justin Clark an attorney and one of Trumps senior people was caught on tape re. voter suppression:





    https://www.businessinsider.com/leak...9-12?r=US&IR=T

    Interesting - and by your own definition there distinctly white nationalist ideology.
    That is a ridiculously weak example to support your accusation (or your support of an accusation) that Trump and his administration is white supremacist or white nationalist. The discussion around voter suppression/expansion has been around for as long as i can remember. Both parties have, at various times, been accused of both. It is not the jurisdiction of the Trump administration. In fact, this guy is talking about the Republican Party and the historical perception, not Trump or his administration. I notice from the article you provided that this guy explains his comments but you didn't think to quote that. Not very honest there at all RAM, is it? Perhaps my accusation of you being a dishonest individual when it comes to this type of discussion is on the mark.


    Quote Originally Posted by Real ale Madrid View Post
    Agreed - what you would be seeing are slightly less overt practices and more rhetoric type propaganda. Interesting you brought up the Nazis - they used an economic crash in the 1920's to stir up division and hatred against those perceived to be the enemy. This was furthered by a refusal to accept the Germans lost WWI on the battlefield but were somehow betrayed by German Jews and other 'undesirables' to him such as social democrats. That is how the Nazi party started rampant anti-Semitism in Germany in the 30s.
    You could argue that Trump is trying to divide and demonize along similar lines with his build the wall rhetoric - it is a clear and blatant attempt to demonise all Mexicans as drug dealers and rapists etc - we've gone over 'The Border Wall' before so I won't go there again but another example imo of white Nationalist rhetoric in action.
    Well, well - we agree. Oh no, wait... you are trying to argue that Trump is actually Hitler by building the wall which is to protect the border where people and drugs are crossing illegally every day. It is border control. Its been around for centuries. Most countries have policies and protections that try to control who is coming into the country. How about you provide some examples of Trump or his administration trying to expel, eliminate or exterminate American minorities or something that would actually support this wild accusation of white nationalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Real ale Madrid View Post
    It doesn’t clearly support anything. It is of course an indicator – but living standards I’ll bet are still well under the norm and I’m not sure the type of employment is conducive to long term growth anyway. Are people earning a living wage? – 80% of Americans live “paycheck to paycheck” – hardly a sweeping reform of life for minorities. Not sure about the prison reform stuff and the reversal of the Clinton admin items – I’ll take your word for that. The General point remains – you can’t offset unemployment stats v General behaviour.
    Again, this seems dishonest. There was more to what i said and provided than unemployment rates. You choose to ignore those in order to narrow the argument and make it appear that i am equating only unemployment as evidence against white nationalism. And you poo-poo the relevance of the prison reform stuff. You are also ignoring the broader concept that i am also putting forward that hypothesizes (perhaps incorrectly) that a white supremacist or white nationalist administration would be doing everything they could to ensure that all the relevant markers would be going in the opposite direction. Yet there is nothing, not one policy or directive or anything that anyone has put forward yet to show that this is happening.

    Just so you know you do have an option to simply concede that maybe an accusation of this being a white nationalist administration is unsupported and therefore unfounded at this time.
    Last edited by SkStu; 21/01/2020 at 1:32 PM.

  20. #256
    The Cheeto God Real ale Madrid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkStu View Post
    Give me a break. You are trying to position yourself as some sort of victim because i asked you to engage more honestly? If i put forward a simple premise, then i expect people to be able to grasp it and argue it on its merits and not engage in one word or one sentence responses. If you don't then you are either too entrenched or too ignorant to bother with. If you dont like being called out on a crap response then go find a safe space.
    So to summarize I'm:

    • Playing the victim
    • Dishonest
    • Unable to grasp simple points
    • Entrenched
    • Ignorant
    • Crap
    • In need of finding a safe space



    All because I had to temerity to disagree with your original point, which I thought was fairly weak while calling out repeated behavior which I don't agree with in a civil way. To be fair my riposte was flimsy enough as well but not without merit. Anyway I've tried to engage in a civil manner with both you and Mark but checking out now Stu. All the best.
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    Ignore lists lads, or just post your point without engaging personally. I favour the latter, you're wasting your time debating with people that can't or won't provide sources for their opinions. Ideally I would tighten up the rules in here and come down harder on the rhetoric, but I don't have time. I always welcome moderators, as long as they commit to remaining neutral.

  22. #258
    First Team The Fly's Avatar
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    I'd like to know how many of the posters actually live, or have lived, in America?

  23. #259
    Seasoned Pro peadar1987's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Fly View Post
    I'd like to know how many of the posters actually live, or have lived, in America?
    Me, nope. Ireland till 2009, UK since then

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    Ive lived and worked there (J1 and another job assignment) but too long ago and not long enough to really count. I do have close family and friends scattered throughout the Midwest and Northeast that I interact with quite regularly.

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