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  1. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by samhaydenjr View Post
    Perhaps, and I certainly wouldn't put it past any of the rich and powerful. At the same time, we are living in a time where spouting conspiracy theories has become a tool to advance actual conspiracies. I mean Clinton knew him, but so did Trump (in spite of his denials) - and the first public people actually accused of sexual misconduct in relation to his actions are Prince Andrew and Alan Dershowitz - could the Royal Family have orchestrated it? And the Daily Mail has published pictures of Epstein and the accuser, Virginia Roberts, at a party on convicted fraudster Flavio Briatore's boat that Eddie Jordan also attended - so could he have been killed to protect Formula 1? Or perhaps it was the Russian government looking to protect their boy Trump. Or maybe it was some guards/prisoners who believed he would get away with another slap on the wrist.

    Or perhaps he decided to kill himself because he didn't have a way out this time and didn't have the guts to face up to his crimes and victims.

    So I guess we'll just have to listen to the official evidence in an open-minded manner and analyze it fairly and possibly even accept it unless there is compelling evidence to the contrary. Yes, yes, we know, Donald... BORING!!!
    "The Russian government looking to protect their boy Trump"
    Wow, I mean wow.........what a statement!
    To think there are still people out there that still believe this garbage, after 2 plus years of investigations involving the top lawyers in America.
    Amazing.

  2. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by mark12345 View Post
    "The Russian government looking to protect their boy Trump"
    Wow, I mean wow.........what a statement!
    To think there are still people out there that still believe this garbage, after 2 plus years of investigations involving the top lawyers in America.
    Amazing.
    Ha! I thought that line might get a reaction. I think it stands up just simply on the basis that Robert Mueller stated plainly, in front of Congress, under oath, that the Russian government interfered in the American election and that they favoured Trump. That alone justifies, in my mind, saying that Trump is their boy. And that's before we even mention:
    - the meetings between Russian operatives and members of the Trump campaign, including his own son, whether or not there was a grand conspiratorial scheme on the part of his people
    - the fact that, on ten occasions, he tried to obstruct investigations into the Russian government's interference with the election and favourable connections with members of his circle, including protecting a cabinet member with ties to the Russian oligarchy who wanted to let them off scot-free for the invasion of Ukraine: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muelle...ed_obstruction
    - the lies about the timeline of the Trump Tower Moscow
    - his refusal to publish his tax returns
    - his uncharacteristically docile manner around Putin, to the point where he publicly stated that he believed Putin over evidence from his own Intelligence services
    - and probably a bunch of other things that show that Putin's government favours Trump and interfered with the election on his behalf and that his campaign were accepting of and complicit in this interference that I'm too tired to research, again regardless of whether there was a grand conspiratorial scheme with a clear and obvious quid pro quo between the two parties (which Mueller didn't actually rule out, in spite of what Barr said)

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  4. #143
    First Team The Fly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkStu View Post
    What are your guys' thoughts on the Epstein suicide? Whether you are on the #trumpbodycount or #clintonbodycount train, you have to think that this feckin stinks eh? Absolutely sickened that the chances of us getting anywhere close to the truth on this are next to zero now.
    I for one was shocked at the news of his death.

  5. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by samhaydenjr View Post
    Ha! I thought that line might get a reaction. I think it stands up just simply on the basis that Robert Mueller stated plainly, in front of Congress, under oath, that the Russian government interfered in the American election and that they favoured Trump. That alone justifies, in my mind, saying that Trump is their boy. And that's before we even mention:
    - the meetings between Russian operatives and members of the Trump campaign, including his own son, whether or not there was a grand conspiratorial scheme on the part of his people
    - the fact that, on ten occasions, he tried to obstruct investigations into the Russian government's interference with the election and favourable connections with members of his circle, including protecting a cabinet member with ties to the Russian oligarchy who wanted to let them off scot-free for the invasion of Ukraine: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muelle...ed_obstruction
    - the lies about the timeline of the Trump Tower Moscow
    - his refusal to publish his tax returns
    - his uncharacteristically docile manner around Putin, to the point where he publicly stated that he believed Putin over evidence from his own Intelligence services
    - and probably a bunch of other things that show that Putin's government favours Trump and interfered with the election on his behalf and that his campaign were accepting of and complicit in this interference that I'm too tired to research, again regardless of whether there was a grand conspiratorial scheme with a clear and obvious quid pro quo between the two parties (which Mueller didn't actually rule out, in spite of what Barr said)
    Russian collusion. There was plenty of it. But unfortunately you are looking under all the wrong stones. Try Glen Simpson, Christopher Steele, Bruch Ohr, Nelly Ohr, Lisa Page, Peter Strock, the bogus FISA application and how the court was duped four times. What happened to Carter Page and Michael Flynn was ok with you, I guess? Did you ever ask yoursel why Robert Mueller failed to notice all these elephants in the room?

  6. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Fly View Post
    I for one was shocked at the news of his death.
    Some interesting developments today and yesterday.

    Yesterday Rush Limbaugh claimed that sources were telling him the bones in Epstein's neck were broken in a manner that could not have been done in an act of
    suicide. In addition Epstein, according to his lawyers, was looking forward to their next meeting (because, according to them, he was confident he could beat the rap against him. The reason for his optimism was that
    he had already been tried and convicted for the crime - in Florida - they were now charging him with, and the law says one cannot be charged a second time for the same crime).

    Then today, the coroner ruled that his death was a suicide.

  7. #146
    Director dahamsta's Avatar
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    Suicide my hole.

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    Suicide my hole.

  10. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkStu View Post
    Suicide my hole.
    I haven't heard of one person out there that actually believes the suicide theory

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    Quote Originally Posted by mark12345 View Post
    Russian collusion. There was plenty of it. But unfortunately you are looking under all the wrong stones. Try Glen Simpson, Christopher Steele, Bruch Ohr, Nelly Ohr, Lisa Page, Peter Strock, the bogus FISA application and how the court was duped four times. What happened to Carter Page and Michael Flynn was ok with you, I guess? Did you ever ask yoursel why Robert Mueller failed to notice all these elephants in the room?
    Ah come on now Mark - what-aboutism? Seriously?

  12. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by dahamsta View Post
    Suicide my hole.
    Quote Originally Posted by SkStu View Post
    Suicide my hole.
    Nice to see you two agreeing on this

    Quote Originally Posted by mark12345 View Post
    I haven't heard of one person out there that actually believes the suicide theory
    Quote Originally Posted by mark12345 View Post
    Some interesting developments today and yesterday.

    Yesterday Rush Limbaugh claimed that sources were telling him the bones in Epstein's neck were broken in a manner that could not have been done in an act of
    suicide.
    Then today, the coroner ruled that his death was a suicide.
    Well if Limbaugh said it wasn't a suicide, I'm actually more inclined to believe the coroner

  13. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by samhaydenjr View Post
    Nice to see you two agreeing on this





    Well if Limbaugh said it wasn't a suicide, I'm actually more inclined to believe the coroner
    Totally unrealted to the above, but this is a very interesting article on the gun argument in America (which is front and center of every debate when there is a mass shooting).

    https://dailycaller.com/2019/09/05/c..._campaign=push

  14. #152
    The Cheeto God Real ale Madrid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mark12345 View Post
    Totally unrealted to the above, but this is a very interesting article on the gun argument in America (which is front and center of every debate when there is a mass shooting).

    https://dailycaller.com/2019/09/05/c..._campaign=push
    Carlson would want to be careful - he's turning into a lefty liberal. Chinese workers rights, getting employers to pay staff enough to live, whatever next!
    If a dog weighs under 50 lbs it's a cat, and cats are useless.

  15. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Real ale Madrid View Post
    Carlson would want to be careful - he's turning into a lefty liberal. Chinese workers rights, getting employers to pay staff enough to live, whatever next!
    I am sure impeachment / Ukraine etc. will be all the rage on the news channels in Ireland over the next few weeks. A bit of perspective on what really happened


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHihyFsgJGc


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSyy5iF7npM

  16. #154
    Biased against YOUR club pineapple stu's Avatar
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    mark - dumping YouTube videos into a thread isn't the same as making an argument.

    What point are we supposed to take from those videos?

    (Not interested in a "Watch it yourself and make your mind up" reply because that to me is the marker of someone who generally thinks a YouTube video equates to a solid argument, even if the video is nonsense. Sum up the key points in a few lines for us please)

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  18. #155
    Capped Player SkStu's Avatar
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    Agree with Stu. Havenít watched the videos. My only take on this is that it will blow up in the Dems faces again just like their previous efforts to take Trump down.

    The main question I have is that, even if there was a quid pro quo request made by Trump and it doesnít appear that there was, and even if that is wrong (and I donít know that it is), why on earth are we not applying the same standards to a) the Biden video where he brags about withholding the $1.5bn from Ukraine until they fired the Burisma prosecutor that his son was sitting on the Board of and b) Obama administrations efforts to pressure Ukraine into releasing information on Trumps 2016 campaign manager. The double standards being applied here are just nutso to me.

  19. #156
    International Prospect osarusan's Avatar
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    From what was released so far, there's nothing that will get Trump in trouble. Maybe later releases will have something.


    Anyway, I don't think many party members on either side would actually give much of a sh!t about the actual principles of it all. The Dems would piously attack, the Reps would prevaricate and play down and muddy the waters, and some time in the not-too-distant future something similar will happen under a Democrat president, and everybody will play the political game again, except with roles reversed, making the same arguments they all had such contempt for previously.

    Nothing matters really, except for getting your champ in the white house and then keeping them there. Anything is fair game when it comes to that.

    I'm sure this is what the impeachment is about also.

  20. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple stu View Post
    mark - dumping YouTube videos into a thread isn't the same as making an argument.

    What point are we supposed to take from those videos?

    (Not interested in a "Watch it yourself and make your mind up" reply because that to me is the marker of someone who generally thinks a YouTube video equates to a solid argument, even if the video is nonsense. Sum up the key points in a few lines for us please)
    Really interesting Stu that you say this because I would much prefer making my point in a few (or not so few) lines. I have done this in the past but have been called out for not providing sources. Damned if I do and damned if I don't.

    But since you ask the attached videos speak about the actions of Joe Biden and the payoff his son got from the Ukrainians while working for an energy company (the son had no exprience in that field but got a 600k pay off). Joe Biden then goes and threatens the Ukrainians to remove a prosecutor who was looking into his son's activities. Biden threatens to withold US government aid from them if the prosecutor is not fired. He was promptly fired. And then the Dems go and accuse Trump of wrongdoing for looking into this. The non fake news is saying that AG William Barr and the Inspector General (Durham) are extremely close to blowing the lid on the corruption which led to the Russian collusion debacle, and this impeachment drive from the Dems is a diversion to keep the eyed of the world off them.

  21. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by mark12345 View Post
    Really interesting Stu that you say this because I would much prefer making my point in a few (or not so few) lines. I have done this in the past but have been called out for not providing sources. Damned if I do and damned if I don't.

    But since you ask the attached videos speak about the actions of Joe Biden and the payoff his son got from the Ukrainians while working for an energy company (the son had no exprience in that field but got a 600k pay off). Joe Biden then goes and threatens the Ukrainians to remove a prosecutor who was looking into his son's activities. Biden threatens to withold US government aid from them if the prosecutor is not fired. He was promptly fired. And then the Dems go and accuse Trump of wrongdoing for looking into this. The non fake news is saying that AG William Barr and the Inspector General (Durham) are extremely close to blowing the lid on the corruption which led to the Russian collusion debacle, and this impeachment drive from the Dems is a diversion to keep the eyed of the world off them.
    From what I've read, there is consensus that the prosecutor, Shokin, was fired for failure to prosecute corruption charges against oligarchs in Ukraine, not because he was going after Biden's son, with Joe Biden merely expressing US Government policy at the time. There appears to be no evidence that Hunter Biden was, or should have been, under investigation for illegal activity at the time.
    https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...n-and-ukraine/
    https://www.economist.com/briefing/2...angerous-shift

    Meanwhile Fox News' legal advice indicates that simply asking President Zelensky to investigate Biden's son alone was a crime, regardless of whether the withholding of aid is to be considered part of a quid pro quo or worse, a bribe

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKiRdUbDTWk
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yY_N4d5xv8
    Last edited by samhaydenjr; 01/10/2019 at 3:15 AM.

  22. #159
    Capped Player SkStu's Avatar
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    Just to be clear, Hunter Biden was not under investigation. The corruption being investigated predated his time on the Burisma Board. Thatís where a lot of people are getting confused. However, he was sitting on the Board of a company that was under investigation by the government of the time. And Joe used his position as an elected official to exert pressure on this foreign government to fire the prosecutor of the company. And that Ukraine wouldnít get their $1.5bn until this happened.

    https://twitter.com/saracarterdc/sta...343910402?s=21

    Hunter was earning $50k per month. Bear in mind this guy was completely unqualified for such a position and was discharged from the army for cocaine addiction. The guy is nothing short of a car crash and most companies that you or I would be aware of wouldnít entrust governance into someone with that kind of track record. Itís fair to assume that daddy Biden had something to do with Hunter getting this sweet gig.

    https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/hunt...ry?id=64064060

    Itís also fair to conclude that, at best, there was a serious conflict of interest here and funds withheld based on a clear quid pro quo. We wonít give you money unless you fire a prosecutor we donít like. Itís actually a far more obvious and straightforward a violation than what the transcript sets out against Trump, in my opinion. The Hunter connection is somewhat irrelevant other than to make it an ethical violation on top of ďbriberyĒ.

    If nothing else, as I say above, itís a woeful double standard thatís being applied.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...mpression=true

    Transcript: https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trumps-ukraine-call-transcript-read-the-document
    Last edited by SkStu; 01/10/2019 at 4:45 AM.

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