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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by dahamsta View Post
    mark12345, provide sources for your claims or you will be suspended / banned from this forum, depending on your infraction history. You have 24 hours.
    I have done Dahmsta, see above.

    Dahamsta - Just a thought. You can tell me to go jump in a lake if you like, but hear me out for a second if you will.

    I detect a real lack of trust among the posters on this topic. No one seems to believe anything anyone says anymore. It wasn't always like this but the world is a far more acrimonious place now and I suppose the folks on here are just a cameo of that.
    We are all at each other's throats (that's no one's fault but our own as we have allowed ourselves to get sucked in by the forces out there which are trying to divide us, and I would think many on here would agree with this).
    Put it this way, if the topic was football or rugby game, there would be minor or even major disagreement for a brief period, but eventually people would come back to their senses.
    That doesn't happen when it comes to this topic.

    And when the proverbial baby gets thrown out with the bathwater, I always try to revert to logic and truth. Truth is more elusive today than it ever has been, so we just have to inject logic and healthy debate in an effort to get to the truth.
    Why is this important?
    Well it's important to me, and I hope everyone else, because I would like us all to get to UNITY and unity is where the future of civilisation lies.
    There is a reason why the major media outlets in America, and I would suspect Ireland, England and most of the western world seem to have forgotten how to spell the word, let alone use it
    Because unity of decent, clear thinking people scares them for some reason.
    Logic, truth, civility, unity.
    Pass it on and we'll be far better off in the long run.

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    Dahamsta - Osarusan posts below that he googled the figure of 80,000 and he could only find 10,000.
    Notably, all the top sites which are shown for this search are CNN, Vox, USA Today, Washington Post.
    I don't know where you live Dahamsta but in America those outlets are all considered to be anti-Trump and true to form, they do question the figure.

    My ongoing sources are Jeff Kuhner, radio host, Chris Plant, radio host, Rush Limbaugh, radio host, Larry Elder, radio host, -- Brett Baer, Laura Ingraham, Jesse Watters, Greg Guttfelt, Dan Bongino and Martha McCallum Fox TV analysts. And there are quite a few others which I can give you if you really need them.
    Did I record the soundbyte when it said, sometime last year, that there were 80 K gang members. No I did not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mark12345 View Post

    My ongoing sources are Jeff Kuhner, radio host, Chris Plant, radio host, Rush Limbaugh, radio host, Larry Elder, radio host, -- Brett Baer, Laura Ingraham, Jesse Watters, Greg Guttfelt, Dan Bongino and Martha McCallum
    All you are short of is this guy

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    https://theweek.com/articles/758360/rise-ms13

    Decent and balanced article on these animals here and the only one that brings up a reference to 80,000 MS13 members (in Central America). Restates the 10,000 number that seems more accepted. Some more interesting numbers and data in this article: https://www.680news.com/2018/04/27/a...-up-this-year/
    As I said in an earlier post, even one of these thugs crossing the border and adding to the misery is one too many in my book.

    Also, learned today about another similar gang called Barrio 18 With an estimated 30,000-50,000 members in the USA.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/18th_Street_gang

    And thereís apparently 1.4m people in the states who are part of a total of 33,000 gangs. Thatís insane!

    Mark, my advice might be to retract your claim above and be more careful in the future. We all have a responsibility to be extra careful in the claims we make these days given the prevailing mood of society and the proliferation of fake news even in the mainstream media outlets. It will actually serve us well as a society.

    On this site, as we can see from the above, there are two standards applied during these types of debates on this forum but itís DaHams site so we play by his rules, authoritarian as it may seem.

    I know that we can all misremember things that we hear or see (kind of the Mandela Effect) so chalk it down to that and hope that DaHamsta will be in a kind, forgiving state of mind tomorrow morning!

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    Quote Originally Posted by SkStu View Post
    https://theweek.com/articles/758360/rise-ms13

    Decent and balanced article on these animals here and the only one that brings up a reference to 80,000 MS13 members (in Central America). Restates the 10,000 number that seems more accepted. Some more interesting numbers and data in this article: https://www.680news.com/2018/04/27/a...-up-this-year/
    As I said in an earlier post, even one of these thugs crossing the border and adding to the misery is one too many in my book.

    Also, learned today about another similar gang called Barrio 18 With an estimated 30,000-50,000 members in the USA.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/18th_Street_gang

    And thereís apparently 1.4m people in the states who are part of a total of 33,000 gangs. Thatís insane!

    Mark, my advice might be to retract your claim above and be more careful in the future. We all have a responsibility to be extra careful in the claims we make these days given the prevailing mood of society and the proliferation of fake news even in the mainstream media outlets. It will actually serve us well as a society.

    On this site, as we can see from the above, there are two standards applied during these types of debates on this forum but itís DaHams site so we play by his rules, authoritarian as it may seem.

    I know that we can all misremember things that we hear or see (kind of the Mandela Effect) so chalk it down to that and hope that DaHamsta will be in a kind, forgiving state of mind tomorrow morning!
    Point taken. I will retract the number. I have no idea where or how to find it at this point. But I will try to source this stuff better in the future.

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    Well, in the spirit of peace and reconciliation that has broken out, I'll accept that amidst this list were some items that breached the Goldwater Rule - both in spirit and in that I'm not a psychiatrist.

    And now, back to Fox.
    Hello, hello? What's going on? What's all this shouting, we'll have no trouble here!
    - E Tattsyrup.

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    mark12345, the below is how you provide sources. The next time you make a claim on the current affairs forum, provide actual sources or your posts will be deleted, and you will be banned from this forum. Saying "I heard it" on X, Y or Z is absolutely not acceptable. Link sources, or don't make claims.

    And, to be frank, the reason people argue with you, and don't believe a word you say, is because you sound and act like an ignorant, Trump-supporting / anti-vax / flat-earth / flouride-bad lunatic, citing and parroting "facts" without sources, some of which are borderline or actually racist, sectarian or just plain mean. I'm not saying that any of those are actually true, but that's what you sound like. Maybe you should consider that for a little while.


    Quote Originally Posted by SkStu View Post
    https://theweek.com/articles/758360/rise-ms13

    Decent and balanced article on these animals here and the only one that brings up a reference to 80,000 MS13 members (in Central America). Restates the 10,000 number that seems more accepted. Some more interesting numbers and data in this article: https://www.680news.com/2018/04/27/a...-up-this-year/
    As I said in an earlier post, even one of these thugs crossing the border and adding to the misery is one too many in my book.

    Also, learned today about another similar gang called Barrio 18 With an estimated 30,000-50,000 members in the USA.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/18th_Street_gang

    And there’s apparently 1.4m people in the states who are part of a total of 33,000 gangs. That’s insane!

    Mark, my advice might be to retract your claim above and be more careful in the future. We all have a responsibility to be extra careful in the claims we make these days given the prevailing mood of society and the proliferation of fake news even in the mainstream media outlets. It will actually serve us well as a society.

    On this site, as we can see from the above, there are two standards applied during these types of debates on this forum but it’s DaHams site so we play by his rules, authoritarian as it may seem.

    I know that we can all misremember things that we hear or see (kind of the Mandela Effect) so chalk it down to that and hope that DaHamsta will be in a kind, forgiving state of mind tomorrow morning!

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    Quote Originally Posted by SkStu View Post
    https://theweek.com/articles/758360/rise-ms13

    Decent and balanced article on these animals here and the only one that brings up a reference to 80,000 MS13 members (in Central America). Restates the 10,000 number that seems more accepted. Some more interesting numbers and data in this article: https://www.680news.com/2018/04/27/a...-up-this-year/
    As I said in an earlier post, even one of these thugs crossing the border and adding to the misery is one too many in my book.
    Ha! Before I read that article I did a top-of-my-head calculation of the number of MS13 members who cross the border. I based it on the figure I cited earlier of 10,000 members, with most joining in the US. Based on that, I assumed that the number of MS13 members who crossed as members to be no more than 4000, and if we assume that's over a ten year period, that would mean 400 MS13 members crossing per year. Wild estimate, I thought. And then I go to that article and it says that the number of MS13 members apprehended in 2014 (the highest in recent years) was 437!

    Yes, I know the ideal would be for that figure to be zero, same for the existence of MS13 members at all. But that's not realistic and from a public policy point of view this figure hardly justifies spending $21.6B (Dept of Homeland Security Figures - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_wall#Cost_estimates, I reckon it'll be closer to $50b, if it gets that far) on a wall born out of spite and hatred, especially as there are serious doubts, to say the least, about its effectiveness: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-a8783721.html. And it certainly doesn't justify Trump's infamous campaign announcement speech.

    Quick question to think about - what would be the effect on immigration if the US gave $25b directly to the poorest 2.5m families in Guatemala, Honduras and El Salvador?

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    Capped Player SkStu's Avatar
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    Sam,

    The wall is not just to prevent MS13 members, right? Itís to prevent illegal immigration and as I said above funnel all immigration and asylum through legal ports of entry. It is one part of a solution to a very real problem. To say it is borne out of spite and hatred is lazy and is just parroting media anti-Trump nonsense.

    Do you or someone you know own a home? Does that home have a fence or wall? What is the purpose of the fence/wall? Is it an instrument of spite and hatred? Is it to delineate and set out the property you own? Is it intended to keep people from trespassing on and potentially - even unintentionally - destroying your property? Does your wall or fence work 100%? Mine doesnít but itís a deterrent and with motion cameras, gates and alarm systems it works quite well. Do you feel that you have the right to decide who can come into your home and onto your property? Would you be willing to let people from a poorer neighbourhood just come onto your property to build a home there or hide out there? Would you not have been better to just take the money that you spent on your fence or wall and given it directly to the families in the poorer neighbourhoods?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SkStu View Post
    Sam,

    The wall is not just to prevent MS13 members, right?
    It’s to prevent illegal immigration and as I said above funnel all immigration and asylum through legal ports of entry. It is one part of a solution to a very real problem. To say it is borne out of spite and hatred is lazy and is just parroting media anti-Trump nonsense.
    Well duh... one of the problems with the wall is that it won't actually manage to do that. The point is, and this goes to the heart of the issue of this thread, MS13 have been presented by Trump and right-wing media as a major threat to US security without precedent as justification for this huge expenditure. Even on this thread, you had Mark12345 presenting a figure of 80,000 MS13 members in the US. He claimed that he heard it quoted on one of his news sources, which include Fox News and Right-wing Talk Radio but couldn't remember where. And you know what? I believe him. Based on what I see of Fox News, Conservative Radio and now, more insidiously, Spectrum Media properties, it's entirely probable that Mark12345 was watching Fox or listening to Talk Radio and somebody threw out a figure of 80,000 in the context of MS13 in the US in a discussion about the Southern Border, wasn't challenged and that's the figure he brought here, which we now know, based on figures both you and I presented, to be massively, massively overstated.

    And why do they do this? To rile people up. Because most people are reasonable and if you tell them that illegal border crossings have dropped by 80% since the year 2000, that the number of MS13 members crossing each year numbers in the hundreds and that 99% of people crossing the border are simply seeking a better life for their families and don't go on to commit crimes, then they don't see a need for draconian, extreme and expensive border measures, even though they support sensible border regulation and enforcement.

    But there are certain groups of people who are not happy with that. No matter the cost, no matter the futility of achieving their claimed objectives, no matter the pointless misery they cause to people, out of spite and hatred (I'm not just parroting that) they throw out misleading information and figures to get otherwise semi-reasonable people riled up. Sarah Huckabee-Sanders got caught out doing this, ironically enough on Fox News, when she threw out the number of terror suspects stopped by border services in the context of The Wall, only for Chris Wallace to point out that none of these terror suspect were stopped at the Southern Border. But of course the most infamous example of this use of misleading rhetoric is the speech that kicked this whole thing off:

    "When Mexico sends its people, they're not sending their best... They're sending people that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with [them]. They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists. And some, I assume, are good people."

    If that's not born of spite and hatred, then I don't know what is.

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    Capped Player SkStu's Avatar
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    I think itís poor form to ignore two-thirds of my post and then spend half your response addressing something that I never raised.

    Well intentioned or not, if you want to make a better start for yourself than you should start by following the law and not immigrating illegally. If a wall along the southern border helps with that then thatís a good thing surely?

    Do you think people should follow legal processes to start a new life in a better country? Do you support people from Central America and Mexico crossing the border into the USA illegally?

    Iím asking you some really simple questions in these last couple of replies. Continue to ignore them and Iíll write you off as disingenuous on this topic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by samhaydenjr View Post
    Well duh... one of the problems with the wall is that it won't actually manage to do that. The point is, and this goes to the heart of the issue of this thread, MS13 have been presented by Trump and right-wing media as a major threat to US security without precedent as justification for this huge expenditure. Even on this thread, you had Mark12345 presenting a figure of 80,000 MS13 members in the US. He claimed that he heard it quoted on one of his news sources, which include Fox News and Right-wing Talk Radio but couldn't remember where. And you know what? I believe him. Based on what I see of Fox News, Conservative Radio and now, more insidiously, Spectrum Media properties, it's entirely probable that Mark12345 was watching Fox or listening to Talk Radio and somebody threw out a figure of 80,000 in the context of MS13 in the US in a discussion about the Southern Border, wasn't challenged and that's the figure he brought here, which we now know, based on figures both you and I presented, to be massively, massively overstated.

    And why do they do this? To rile people up. Because most people are reasonable and if you tell them that illegal border crossings have dropped by 80% since the year 2000, that the number of MS13 members crossing each year numbers in the hundreds and that 99% of people crossing the border are simply seeking a better life for their families and don't go on to commit crimes, then they don't see a need for draconian, extreme and expensive border measures, even though they support sensible border regulation and enforcement.

    But there are certain groups of people who are not happy with that. No matter the cost, no matter the futility of achieving their claimed objectives, no matter the pointless misery they cause to people, out of spite and hatred (I'm not just parroting that) they throw out misleading information and figures to get otherwise semi-reasonable people riled up. Sarah Huckabee-Sanders got caught out doing this, ironically enough on Fox News, when she threw out the number of terror suspects stopped by border services in the context of The Wall, only for Chris Wallace to point out that none of these terror suspect were stopped at the Southern Border. But of course the most infamous example of this use of misleading rhetoric is the speech that kicked this whole thing off:

    "When Mexico sends its people, they're not sending their best... They're sending people that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with [them]. They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists. And some, I assume, are good people."

    If that's not born of spite and hatred, then I don't know what is.

    Sam, listen to this woman. She is a spokesperson for the customs officers in Arizona (it's an interesting video which speaks about border guards facing massive numbers of immigrants which they just cannot handle, and being exposed to disease etc. But if you don't have the time, listen from 13.59 to the end). She says that the media and celebrities portray the border patrol as monsters, but the reality is that America goes above and beyond in the way it treats immigrants crossing the border, many of whom are hardened criminals.


    https://youtu.be/IW3ma-IAe1w?t=6

    Source - Judicial Watch

    http://www.judicialwatch.org/latest-videos/

    And......almost 30,000 murders in 2017 in Mexico, see source below.

    https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/mexico...rate-1.4497466

    and it's not getting any better with 2500 plus reported in February 2019 alone. The woman in the Judicial Watch video talks about the crime rate going up in Tijuana because of the influx of migrants from the caravans. So in essence there is a real perfect storm of problems on America's southern border.

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    Quote Originally Posted by samhaydenjr View Post
    Well duh... one of the problems with the wall is that it won't actually manage to do that. The point is, and this goes to the heart of the issue of this thread, MS13 have been presented by Trump and right-wing media as a major threat to US security without precedent as justification for this huge expenditure. Even on this thread, you had Mark12345 presenting a figure of 80,000 MS13 members in the US. He claimed that he heard it quoted on one of his news sources, which include Fox News and Right-wing Talk Radio but couldn't remember where. And you know what? I believe him. Based on what I see of Fox News, Conservative Radio and now, more insidiously, Spectrum Media properties, it's entirely probable that Mark12345 was watching Fox or listening to Talk Radio and somebody threw out a figure of 80,000 in the context of MS13 in the US in a discussion about the Southern Border, wasn't challenged and that's the figure he brought here, which we now know, based on figures both you and I presented, to be massively, massively overstated.

    And why do they do this? To rile people up. Because most people are reasonable and if you tell them that illegal border crossings have dropped by 80% since the year 2000, that the number of MS13 members crossing each year numbers in the hundreds and that 99% of people crossing the border are simply seeking a better life for their families and don't go on to commit crimes, then they don't see a need for draconian, extreme and expensive border measures, even though they support sensible border regulation and enforcement.

    But there are certain groups of people who are not happy with that. No matter the cost, no matter the futility of achieving their claimed objectives, no matter the pointless misery they cause to people, out of spite and hatred (I'm not just parroting that) they throw out misleading information and figures to get otherwise semi-reasonable people riled up. Sarah Huckabee-Sanders got caught out doing this, ironically enough on Fox News, when she threw out the number of terror suspects stopped by border services in the context of The Wall, only for Chris Wallace to point out that none of these terror suspect were stopped at the Southern Border. But of course the most infamous example of this use of misleading rhetoric is the speech that kicked this whole thing off:

    "When Mexico sends its people, they're not sending their best... They're sending people that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with [them]. They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists. And some, I assume, are good people."

    If that's not born of spite and hatred, then I don't know what is.
    Sam, is it possible that we're being fed a media narrative which simply is not true?

    Here's something from a journalist who went to the very source. He says that the media are misrepresenting the narrative as they portray the migrants to be mostly women and children when in point of fact they are 90 -95% young men.
    Interesting

    https://youtu.be/lfP2UJP0hJE

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    Seasoned Pro ifk101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mark12345 View Post
    Sam, is it possible that we're being fed a media narrative which simply is not true?
    https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/judicial-watch/

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    And why should anyone believe Media Bias Fact Check?
    What are the political leanings of the people who run / fund that website?

    I could point you in the direction of Liberty News Now and an article entitled "Judicial Watch Instrumental In Firing Of Corrupt FBI Agent McCabe"
    Not just any run of the mill website if they can wield that amount of power, one would have to say.

    But then I'm sure you could come up with another website to counteract that and we could go on with this ad nauseum.

    So I've learned a lot this week.
    You've got to give us sources I was told. You cannot just blurb out things without giving sources or you will be banned.
    So I go to the trouble of sourcing information and then I'm told it is not to be believed.
    To be fair it is people's perogative to believe and not to believe what they want.

    Part of the problem in this particular situation, I believe, is that I live 3000 miles away from most of the posters on this site (I think that is the case anyway?).
    I turn on my TV or radio every day and am bombarded with this type of news or propaganda which it is in many cases.
    I tend to forget that many of the people I am corresponding with do not have the same level of saturation coverage of this topic and therefore they need to search for it from other sources.

    All I can say is that we truly live in an age where information is the biggest weapon of all.

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    The Cheeto God Real ale Madrid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mark12345 View Post
    Sam, listen to this woman. She is a spokesperson for the customs officers in Arizona (it's an interesting video which speaks about border guards facing massive numbers of immigrants which they just cannot handle, and being exposed to disease etc. But if you don't have the time, listen from 13.59 to the end). She says that the media and celebrities portray the border patrol as monsters, but the reality is that America goes above and beyond in the way it treats immigrants crossing the border, many of whom are hardened criminals.


    https://youtu.be/IW3ma-IAe1w?t=6

    Source - Judicial Watch

    http://www.judicialwatch.org/latest-videos/

    And......almost 30,000 murders in 2017 in Mexico, see source below.

    https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/mexico...rate-1.4497466

    and it's not getting any better with 2500 plus reported in February 2019 alone. The woman in the Judicial Watch video talks about the crime rate going up in Tijuana because of the influx of migrants from the caravans. So in essence there is a real perfect storm of problems on America's southern border.
    What does the murder rate in Mexico have to do with immigration? It's conjecture mentioning the murder rate there.

    Among communities in the USA with high / low populations of immigrants there is little change in crime rates. One example of such a study is the below by the CATO Institute

    https://www.cato.org/publications/im...egal-immigrant

    The vast majority of research finds that immigrants do not increase local crime rates and that they are less likely to cause crime and less likely to be incarcerated than their native-born peers.3 There is less research on illegal immigrant criminality, but what research there is shows that illegal immigrants have lower incarceration rates nationwide and in the state of Texas relative to native-born Americans, although they have the same rates of re-arrest in Los Angeles County.4 Consistent with those findings, immigration enforcement programs targeting illegal immigrant criminals have no effect on local crime rates, which indicates that they are about as crime prone as other residents.5
    No one should be saying that they should be welcoming in illegal immigrants but building a wall according to all known research will do little to help make America Safer.

    Keep harping on about it but if you invested this 25 billion on say , gun legislation then you might say half the current gun deaths (approaching 40,000 per year) . If you did manage to reduce it by half then there would be 200,000 Americans alive in 10 years time that will otherwise die.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nyt...eaths.amp.html
    Last edited by Real ale Madrid; 10/03/2019 at 2:44 PM.
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    Capped Player SkStu's Avatar
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    I agree Mark. Itís a dangerous game to play ifk. On the left side of the spectrum on that site are a load of familiar names to the posters on this site - CNN, HuffPo and others.

    On JW, the site says to take the veracity of their (and by extension those left wing sources) articles on a case by case basis. The best thing we can do on here is post articles that rebut the claims or data in a particular source. It allows people to have both sides presented and then, at least we can make our own minds up. I donít think posting a link like the above furthers any type of decent debate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Real ale Madrid View Post
    No one should be saying that they should be welcoming in illegal immigrants but building a wall according to all known research will do little to help make America Safer.
    According to those who are responsible for patrolling the border, a wall is desperately needed to prevent the flow of illegal immigrants and drugs across the border. This is Carla Provost, Border Patrol Chief.

    https://www.upi.com/Border-Patrol-ch...6061544661131/

    https://thehill.com/hilltv/rising/40...ks-support-for

    Could you share some of the research you are referring to?

    I am glad to read that you donít believe in illegal immigration. I was worried that no one on this site was going to actually answer that question which just seems obvious to me.
    Last edited by dahamsta; 11/03/2019 at 8:01 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SkStu View Post
    According to those who are responsible for patrolling the border, a wall is desperately needed to prevent the flow of illegal immigrants and drugs across the border. This is Carla Provost, Border Patrol Chief.

    https://www.upi.com/Border-Patrol-ch...6061544661131/

    https://thehill.com/hilltv/rising/40...ks-support-for

    Could you share some of the research you are referring to?

    I am glad to read that you donít believe in illegal immigration. I was worried that no one on this site was going to actually answer that question which just seems obvious to me.

    Thanks Stu. As I said before you are a clear thinker.
    No coincidence I suppose that the pair of us (as far as I can see anyway, but there may be exceptions?) are closer than anyone else to the 25 hours a day / 8 days a week American newsfeeds on our TV's.
    I think there are a lot of very knowledgable posters on the Current Affairs topics on this site, and I have learned quite a bit from them regarding things at home in Ireland and in England.
    I just wish there was the same level of acceptance of the facts / stories we present from our side of the world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Real ale Madrid View Post
    What does the murder rate in Mexico have to do with immigration? It's conjecture mentioning the murder rate there.

    Among communities in the USA with high / low populations of immigrants there is little change in crime rates. One example of such a study is the below by the CATO Institute

    https://www.cato.org/publications/im...egal-immigrant



    No one should be saying that they should be welcoming in illegal immigrants but building a wall according to all known research will do little to help make America Safer.

    Keep harping on about it but if you invested this 25 billion on say , gun legislation then you might say half the current gun deaths (approaching 40,000 per year) . If you did manage to reduce it by half then there would be 200,000 Americans alive in 10 years time that will otherwise die.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nyt...eaths.amp.html
    I think and hope that we all (myself included - believe me I am trying) turn over a new leaf in relation to the tone of our posts.
    That said if I can make a few brief comments regarding your post here.
    In response to your questions, my reasoning is as follows:

    "What does the murder rate in Mexico have to do with immigration?" It has everything to do with immigration as in, if you and I were a couple of young kids in Mexico and all we saw in our town was carnage, mutiation and intimidation, would we not want to get out of town as quick as we could? I think that would be only natural to want to do that, and I would think that millions of Mexicans feel the same way? That is why we see so many trying to go north to America (and from what I am seeing now online, the people who were for so long under the thumbs of the cartel are arming themselves into militias and fighting back - that is mosty in southern Mexico). Anyway, I think you would agree that Mexico is a corrupt, lawless country at present which is run by the drug cartels? This can only translate into thousands wanting to flee north to America, and they are doing that (76.000 apprehended on the border in the month of February alone).
    And you might want to balance that CATO Instiute story with a look into the city of Chicago, it's off the charts annual murder rate and the number of shootings in that city (all with illegal guns) which are linked in many cases to the flow of drugs from Mexico. I would be happy to debate you on your perception of gun control in America. Some day, but not today.

    One last thing before I go. I mentioned in a post the other day that a truck crossing the southern border, a month or so ago, was stopped by the border patrol.
    That truck contained enough Fentanyl to kill 60 million Americans. Does that concern you in any way?
    Last edited by dahamsta; 11/03/2019 at 8:01 AM.

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    Seasoned Pro ifk101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mark12345 View Post
    And why should anyone believe Media Bias Fact Check?
    What are the political leanings of the people who run / fund that website?
    You said

    Quote Originally Posted by mark12345 View Post
    Sam, is it possible that we're being fed a media narrative which simply is not true?

  21. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by ifk101 View Post
    You said
    All true.
    It is more than possible that we're being fed an untrue narrative.
    Did you happen to find out anything new about Media Bias Fact Check?
    Let me know so I can try to refute your findings, and we can go on like this forever.

    What has happened to us? 15 - 20 years ago you took the news on your TV as gospel.
    Now no one knows what to believe. Seems like we are puppets on the strings of the media.
    Like Stu says, it's a slippery slope.

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