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Thread: American Politics

  1. #21
    The Cheeto God Real ale Madrid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple stu View Post
    The practicalities of something are really important.

    You've also not addressed any of the points I've made.
    Why would you discuss the practicalities of something that's not going to happen? Nobody is saying that we should go to a 15 hour week. What's the point in discussing the practicalities of it. It's an ideal to work toward, nothing else. What is more relevant is the practicalities of a 35 hour week or a 3 day weekend perhaps. Can or should society work towards those type of ideals?

    I'm not going to be drawn into your negative discussion to be honest. If you want to discuss the original subject matter then grand.
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  2. #22
    Biased against YOUR club pineapple stu's Avatar
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    How can you work towards something without knowing what it is?

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple stu View Post
    How can you work towards something without knowing what it is?
    So you are saying that we shouldn't reduce our working week as an example because an ideal is impractical? I'd probably agree with that I guess. But I like the idea of an ideal to inspire. We should be inspiring society with ideals I think. We may not get there but we could improve the quality of our lives in the process. The book is a reaction to modern society which has become dragged down in negativity drawn out of the disenfranchised. The reasons large swathes of society are disenfranchised are no doubt varied and we would probably disagree on that too but the premise of inspiration to drag people out of that is a decent ideal I think. You are right at some stage, 'lunatics' like Bregman will have to get down to the practicalities (and he does a bit) but let's not sit around and discuss 15 hour weeks and totally open borders as if that is relevant to what's happening out there now.
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    Capped Player SkStu's Avatar
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    Why are these things considered ideals?

    Who says that 15 hours work week is the ideal and why?

    Who says that completely open borders are the ideal and why?

    Why would you discuss the practicalities of something that's not going to happen? Nobody is saying that we should go to a 15 hour week. What's the point in discussing the practicalities of it. It's an ideal to work toward, nothing else.
    This doesn’t make sense to me. My take is that by putting a 15 hour work week out there in a book as an ideal is saying, precisely, that we should “go to” it. Or get to it at some point.

    Why set something out as an ideal to work towards without considering the practicalities of it, the establishment of which would determine whether it actually is an ideal or not. Ideals by definition have to be practical, no?

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    The Cheeto God Real ale Madrid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkStu View Post
    Why are these things considered ideals?

    Who says that 15 hours work week is the ideal and why?

    Who says that completely open borders are the ideal and why?



    This doesn’t make sense to me. My take is that by putting a 15 hour work week out there in a book as an ideal is saying, precisely, that we should “go to” it. Or get to it at some point.

    Why set something out as an ideal to work towards without considering the practicalities of it, the establishment of which would determine whether it actually is an ideal or not. Ideals by definition have to be practical, no?
    Why isn't a 15 hour week practical anyway? Might be a step too far alright, bit again it's the ideal. I did 60 hours last week, including travel. Would it not be better if 2 people did 30 hours each? Is it an ideal we want? At the moment it makes more sense for a company to employ 10 people and give them 20 hours overtime per week on top of a 40 hour working week rather than employ 20 people and give them 30 hours of work per week, due to PRSI taxes etc. The theory is that people who work less are happier and live better fuller lives. There needs to be a political and societal will for change anyway which may not even be there.

    150 years ago the average working week was 60-70 hours and the idea of a 5 day working week was viewed by some as the death of productivity.
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    Capped Player SkStu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Real ale Madrid View Post
    Why isn't a 15 hour week practical anyway? Might be a step too far alright, bit again it's the ideal.
    On your question there, two posts ago you said you probably agreed that it wasn’t practical.

    And again, why is it an ideal? And why 15 hours and not 20 or 10? Is there science behind 15 hours being optimal? I was at my most miserable and unhealthiest when I wasn’t working or not working enough. That’s just me, I know. But I’m just an average joe.

    And the other ideals mentioned, I’m still no clearer why we should consider them ideals. And I still have seen nothing to convince me that practicality shouldn’t be one of the first hurdles that an idea needs to clear in order to become an ideal.

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    The Cheeto God Real ale Madrid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkStu View Post
    On your question there, two posts ago you said you probably agreed that it wasn’t practical.

    And again, why is it an ideal? And why 15 hours and not 20 or 10? Is there science behind 15 hours being optimal? I was at my most miserable and unhealthiest when I wasn’t working or not working enough. That’s just me, I know. But I’m just an average joe.

    And the other ideals mentioned, I’m still no clearer why we should consider them ideals. And I still have seen nothing to convince me that practicality shouldn’t be one of the first hurdles that an idea needs to clear in order to become an ideal.
    No one is trying to convince you of anything. I was just putting forward some of my thoughts in response to earlier posts. I'm done now. I'm not brilliant at articulating my thoughts. In any case I'd highly recommend the book to read to gain the perspective you are looking for. It is genuinely good stuff.
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    Capped Player SkStu's Avatar
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    Fair enough. Yeah I didn’t mean to suggest that you are obliged to try and convince me either, just a turn of phrase more than anything.

    I probably won’t check out the book but it doesn’t hurt for us all to throw ideas out on here and kick them around a bit. Cheers

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    Quote Originally Posted by Real ale Madrid View Post
    Why isn't a 15 hour week practical anyway? Might be a step too far alright, bit again it's the ideal. I did 60 hours last week, including travel. Would it not be better if 2 people did 30 hours each? Is it an ideal we want? At the moment it makes more sense for a company to employ 10 people and give them 20 hours overtime per week on top of a 40 hour working week rather than employ 20 people and give them 30 hours of work per week, due to PRSI taxes etc. The theory is that people who work less are happier and live better fuller lives. There needs to be a political and societal will for change anyway which may not even be there.

    150 years ago the average working week was 60-70 hours and the idea of a 5 day working week was viewed by some as the death of productivity.
    15 hour week, no problem. Why not just stay home and get paid for doing nothing.
    That's what the socialist Democrats in America are espousing at present (I'm guessing everyone would get paid in Cryptocurrency?).
    Work ethic is really taking a beating lately. You can bet your bottom dollar there's an ulterior motive.

  10. #30
    Seasoned Pro peadar1987's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mark12345 View Post
    15 hour week, no problem. Why not just stay home and get paid for doing nothing.
    That's what the socialist Democrats in America are espousing at present (I'm guessing everyone would get paid in Cryptocurrency?).
    Work ethic is really taking a beating lately. You can bet your bottom dollar there's an ulterior motive.
    Are there any prominent democrats who support paying people to stay home and do nothing (over and above jobseeker's allowance)?

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    Capped Player SkStu's Avatar
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    Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's proposed "Green New Deal" advocates a guaranteed living income to those who are unwilling to work.

  12. #32
    The Cheeto God Real ale Madrid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkStu View Post
    Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's proposed "Green New Deal" advocates a guaranteed living income to those who are unwilling to work.
    I thought it advocated paying people enough money so that they could live (A mad thought by US standards alright)

    Apparently Yale researchers say 81% of those polled broadly agree with 'GND'

    http://climatecommunication.yale.edu...tisan-support/

    I'm guessing you are in the Ivanka Trump corner Skstu - who thinks that Americans should 'earn' what they get paid. Whatever that means coming from the grand-daughter of a billionaire.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mark12345 View Post
    15 hour week, no problem. Why not just stay home and get paid for doing nothing.
    That's what the socialist Democrats in America are espousing at present (I'm guessing everyone would get paid in Cryptocurrency?).
    Work ethic is really taking a beating lately. You can bet your bottom dollar there's an ulterior motive.
    You living in the states ?
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    Capped Player SkStu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Real ale Madrid View Post
    I thought it advocated paying people enough money so that they could live (A mad thought by US standards alright)
    It advocated that those who were unable and/or unwilling to work should be paid a guaranteed living income.

    I don’t know enough about the spat between the two at this point but I believe that most people want to have the opportunity to earn a living and have their time valued fairly. If that is what the story there is about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peadar1987 View Post
    Are there any prominent democrats who support paying people to stay home and do nothing (over and above jobseeker's allowance)?
    Ocasio-Cortez

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    Quote Originally Posted by Real ale Madrid View Post
    You living in the states ?
    Yes sir

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    Quote Originally Posted by Real ale Madrid View Post
    I'm guessing you are in the Ivanka Trump corner Skstu - who thinks that Americans should 'earn' what they get paid. Whatever that means coming from the grand-daughter of a billionaire.
    Is this what you’re referencing?

    https://twitter.com/ivankatrump/stat...090726912?s=21

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkStu View Post
    Yeah, well it was this interview I was referring to - she clarified her comments in the tweet, badly.

    https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/...053750357.html

    During an interview with Fox News, Trump, 37, who serves as a senior White House adviser, was asked about Ocasio-Cortez’s manifesto and how she feels about people who may be sold on the proposal’s to ensure jobs provide a wage which can sustain a family.

    “I don’t think most Americans in their heart want to be given something,” Trump said.

    “I’ve spent a lot of time traveling around this country over the last four years. People want to work for what they get, so I think this idea of a guaranteed minimum is not something most people want.”

    “They want the ability to be able to secure a job. They want the ability to live in a country where there’s potential for upward mobility.”
    Her lack of self awareness is staggering - even for a Trump!

    The interview was on Fox news - so we staying on topic in a roundabout way anyway!
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    Quote Originally Posted by mark12345 View Post
    Yes sir
    I was just wondering. Your comments earlier about work ethic ring hollow.

    There are 20 million Americans living under the poverty line.
    https://www.census.gov/library/publi...o/p60-263.html

    80% of US workers live "paycheck to paycheck"
    https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...k-robert-reich

    So while polititican's over there try and hatch a plan to try and eradicate some of this in some way - all you can take out of it is "Work Ethic is really taking a beating lately"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Real ale Madrid View Post
    I was just wondering. Your comments earlier about work ethic ring hollow.

    There are 20 million Americans living under the poverty line.
    https://www.census.gov/library/publi...o/p60-263.html

    80% of US workers live "paycheck to paycheck"
    https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...k-robert-reich

    So while polititican's over there try and hatch a plan to try and eradicate some of this in some way - all you can take out of it is "Work Ethic is really taking a beating lately"
    From your previous posts, I can see that you and I have polar opposite viewpoints on current affairs in America.
    My idea of America (and this is likely shared by the tens of thousands queing up to get into the country) is that it is the land of opportunity.
    I have seen several Irish lads become millionaires over the last couple of decades, but unfortunately the 'land of opportunity' is quickly running out of opportunities.
    You mention politicians trying to eradicate poverty. Politicians over here are - well, how can I say it?
    I'm sure you were told as a youngster that politicians will promise you the world to get your vote, and once they get it they forget all about their promises.
    It seems to be the way of it the world over, and it's no different here in America.
    So, to answer your question, there are many 'plans' to eradicate poverty, but which of them are genuine, when you're dealing with said politicans.

    There is one prominent figure, who is clearly not a politican, and I believe I'm right in saying, he holds just as much disdain for his own Republican party as he does for the Dems (after all they gave him the princely sum of zero dollars for his campaign). Not hard to figure out - he was in Vietnam yesterday. Truth is he is beaten from pillar to post here by the media every day, despite doing a multitude of good things for America.

    Regarding Ocasio-Cortez. Her ideas are quite scary. This Green New Deal will end all fossil fuel dependency in the next 12 years. It also calls for every building in the US to be retrofitted with energy saving light bulbs etc (I think someone estimated the cost to be in the billions for NYC alone). And she is seeking to end air travel in the US in the next ten years, to be replaced by high speed trains.
    And what will China be doing while America is consumed with this green deal?

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