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Thread: Twenty-seventh Amendment of the Constitution of Ireland

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    Twenty-seventh Amendment of the Constitution of Ireland

    Point taken tets. I won’t go comment again or detail how the rhetoric used was similar to what Suella Braverman is using in in the UK regarding refugees and what Trump used regarding building a wall - but I do think there probably needs to be something said in reply to the above - as right now it gives a pretty inaccurate depiction of what happened:

    1. McDowell’s legislation prior to the referendum had already brought liability to the airlines (Immigration Act of 2003)

    2. The idea that “up to 29% of births” were because of that “scam” is laughable. There were 17,000 parents effected by the legislative changes prior to the referendum where parents were no longer granted automatic right to remain (Immigration Act of 2004). 17,000 parents is 8,500 kids if every kid has 2 parents - so let’s call it 9,000 kids (we can ignore later siblings for the scam argument). That’s 9,000 kids across 18 years - which is 500 per year - although it’s pretty heavily weighted from 1996 onwards due to overall immigration, although there were significant communities from North Africa, China, Turkey, Australia, Romania etc etc which existed prior to that, so it’s not like there were no kids in Ireland born to non-Irish people before 1996 - so let’s weight it at 750 kids per year being born when McDowell came in - which is about 1.5% of the new births in Ireland in a given year. That pool was made up of all kinds of people, people who were on all kinds of non-permanent visas (either working or student or anything else), refugees who had kids while waiting a number of years for a decision on their status, and so on. So you can see how big and varied a pie that is - it was about 170,000 - so when both parents were from that pool - that was a kid who would have made up the approx 750 born every year. And therefore what a small fraction were heavily pregnant people arriving. As a kid, I spoke to someone from the department of Justice at SARI’s annual soccerfest in Phoenix park (they have always had a team playing at it) a few months after the referendum who described it as a non-issue where there was only a handful of people doing it (pretty sure he said the number of heavily pregnant women arriving was in single digits - but anyway).

    3. As an aside, Mcdowell promised to speed people’s refugee status assessment to 3 months, so it’d all be sorted quickly. There’s people still in direct provision from his time there 16 years ago.

    4. Directly relating to football, the result of removing the constitutional right has meant that they (DOJ/immigration) were further able to restrict the rights to citizenship. For example, a friend of mine is Italian and he had a kid here. He had lived in Ireland for 2.5 years before the kid was born but the as an EU citizen, the couple needed to be living for 3 years in Ireland before the birth for the kid to be an irish citizen - so instead the child is an Italian and Brazilian citizen (only taking Italian citizenship cause she wasn’t eligible for irish citizenship and they wanted her to have an EU passport.) There’ll be loads of cases like this. All our hopes of a Brazilian influx of talent is basically eroded by that. Over the next decade, we’ll see a lot of ridiculous cases where Irish kids aren’t eligible to play for Ireland.

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    Biased against YOUR club pineapple stu's Avatar
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    Happy for the thread to be split as I agree with tets' comment, but just one point of clarification is on -

    Quote Originally Posted by elatedscum View Post
    2. The idea that “up to 29% of births” were because of that “scam” is laughable.
    29% was a typo on my part; it should have been 20%. Taken from this Irish Examiner report here at the time, specifically -

    Between January and June of 2002, 15% of all deliveries in Dublin were to non-nationals. This year non-nationals account for 20% of all deliveries, Dr Keane said.
    I've said "up to 20%" as obviously I don't know what percentage of those births were closed off by this legislation, but the implication appears to be it was significant. It also quantifies it as around 6,000 births per year, not 750.

    I also find it quite objectionable to be casually likened to Trump btw - but as I say, I did just want to clarify that one point (in part because it included a typo on my part). And happy for the thread to be split if mods want, as certainly it'd just clutter here.
    Last edited by pineapple stu; 03/06/2023 at 5:36 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by elatedscum View Post

    4. Directly relating to football, the result of removing the constitutional right has meant that they (DOJ/immigration) were further able to restrict the rights to citizenship. For example, a friend of mine is Italian and he had a kid here. He had lived in Ireland for 2.5 years before the kid was born but the as an EU citizen, the couple needed to be living for 3 years in Ireland before the birth for the kid to be an irish citizen - so instead the child is an Italian and Brazilian citizen (only taking Italian citizenship cause she wasn’t eligible for irish citizenship and they wanted her to have an EU passport.) There’ll be loads of cases like this. All our hopes of a Brazilian influx of talent is basically eroded by that. Over the next decade, we’ll see a lot of ridiculous cases where Irish kids aren’t eligible to play for Ireland.
    Firstly, I agree that this belongs in a different forum. But probably better for me to post here for now so that it all gets moved together.

    I have to say I'm a bit confused by this. Is your Italian friend sure he has received/obtained the correct information? Because these are the rules in question:

    In order for a child, born in Ireland to parents neither of whom were Irish or British citizens, to be an Irish citizen one of the parents must have:

    a) Lived in Ireland or Northern Ireland for 3 out of the 4 years before the child was born

    or

    b) Have the right to live in Ireland or Northern Ireland without any restriction on their period of residence.

    As an Italian and by extension an EU citizen your friend has the right to live in Ireland without any restriction on his/her period of residence. Therefore the Irish born child should be considered an Irish citizen through that parent.

    Unless I'm missing something I'd be suggesting he speaks to an immigration lawyer to get that issue resolved!
    Keane O'Shea Given Best Smallbone

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eirambler View Post
    Firstly, I agree that this belongs in a different forum. But probably better for me to post here for now so that it all gets moved together.

    I have to say I'm a bit confused by this. Is your Italian friend sure he has received/obtained the correct information? Because these are the rules in question:

    In order for a child, born in Ireland to parents neither of whom were Irish or British citizens, to be an Irish citizen one of the parents must have:

    a) Lived in Ireland or Northern Ireland for 3 out of the 4 years before the child was born

    or

    b) Have the right to live in Ireland or Northern Ireland without any restriction on their period of residence.

    As an Italian and by extension an EU citizen your friend has the right to live in Ireland without any restriction on his/her period of residence. Therefore the Irish born child should be considered an Irish citizen through that parent.

    Unless I'm missing something I'd be suggesting he speaks to an immigration lawyer to get that issue resolved!
    Citizens information says one thing, DOJ said another. I found the DOJ text at the time - I’ll try find it again. He applied for a passport for the kid after she was born because they wanted to travel to Brazil, thinking it would be ok and after waiting for 8 months or so (delay in part due to covid) and rebooking flights - it was rejected.

    But yep, googling now looks a lot more positive than it did in 2021
    Last edited by elatedscum; 03/06/2023 at 7:08 PM.

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    Coach tetsujin1979's Avatar
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    Posts moved from the potentially eligible players thread in the international forum.
    This is not because of any one post, or poster, just to keep the thread itself on topic, and move the discussion to a more relevant forum
    All goals, yellow and red cards tweeted in real time on mastodon, BlueSky and facebook

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    International Prospect osarusan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elatedscum View Post

    4. Directly relating to football, the result of removing the constitutional right has meant that they (DOJ/immigration) were further able to restrict the rights to citizenship. For example, a friend of mine is Italian and he had a kid here. He had lived in Ireland for 2.5 years before the kid was born but the as an EU citizen, the couple needed to be living for 3 years in Ireland before the birth for the kid to be an irish citizen - so instead the child is an Italian and Brazilian citizen (only taking Italian citizenship cause she wasn’t eligible for irish citizenship and they wanted her to have an EU passport.) There’ll be loads of cases like this. All our hopes of a Brazilian influx of talent is basically eroded by that. Over the next decade, we’ll see a lot of ridiculous cases where Irish kids aren’t eligible to play for Ireland.
    Anybody born in Ireland but not a citizen can always apply for it via the naturalisation route. There's a specific 'Application on behalf of a minor born in the State from 1st January 2005 not entitled to Irish citizenship at birth'.
    https://www.irishimmigration.ie/how-...ication-forms/

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    International Prospect osarusan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eirambler View Post
    Therefore the Irish born child should be considered an Irish citizen through that parent.
    If they meet the criteria, the child would be entitled to citizenship, but it's not automatic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by osarusan View Post
    If they meet the criteria, the child would be entitled to citizenship, but it's not automatic.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_...t,_or_adoption

    Indeed, hence why dual citizenship through naturalisation has become increasingly popular, even for EU and UK nationals, in recent years, with 70,000 individuals pursuing the legal mechanism between 2016 and 2022.

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    As for the underlying issue, if the asylum process were simplified and expedited to clear the backlog by making speedier decisions on cases and deportations, then it would help in both eliminating direct provision, and ensure that those individuals who are approved would be housed sooner.

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