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  1. #61
    International Prospect osarusan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mark12345 View Post
    Among the regular people who sneak across the border there are all manner of criminals coming in, including some 80,000 MS 13 gang members currently in the country after sneaking across.
    Hi, do you have a source for this please.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SkStu View Post
    holding Trump to a standard that is higher than that to which his predecessors were held - which I think is unfair.
    Holding Trump to even the lowest standard standard is wishful thinking.

    Quote Originally Posted by osarusan View Post
    Hi, do you have a source for this please.
    The man told him. Y'know. The. Man.
    Last edited by dahamsta; 06/03/2019 at 12:25 PM.
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    Capped Player SkStu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eminence Grise View Post
    Holding Trump to even the lowest standard standard is wishful thinking.
    Why don't you contribute when you are willing to do so in a constructive manner on the issues.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mark12345 View Post
    You make a lot of decent points to be fair. I have seen the effort to clean up plastics in the oceans in Europe and Asia and that is highly commendable. It can only help in the long run. And I am all for planting two trees to replace one (as the slogan goes). That will surely help down the road also. Indeed, not too long ago I drove past a mountain which had been struck by a tornado. Such devistation I have never seen. Trees ripped from their roots and whole paths cut through the forest. And that was just one isolated weather event. On the other hand the wildfires in the Western US are catastrophic. No trees left for miles upon miles. The ground eventually turns into scrub and then desert and that surely detracts from the earth's ability to absorb toxins in the atmosphere. If this green plan was something more along those lines (cleaning up plastics and planting more trees) - after all America is full of electric cars and energency saving appliances as it is, although there is plenty of room for improvement - it would be more palatable. What people don't like is the apparent ending of air and automobile travel. That is a bit oppressive and controlling to my mind. I can tell you that although it was all the talk a few weeks ago, enthusiasm appears to have cooled and AOC's popularity appears to be on the wane. Although she is still a force to be reckoned with.
    Thank you for remaining open-minded - that little bit in bold is where the problem with Fox News and others lies - there's nothing in the Green New Deal about ending air and automobile travel, just providing investments to support Zero Emissions Vehicles, high-speed rail and public transportation and it emphasises "as much as is technologically feasible", as it does for many of its proposals. The market will still provide automobiles, just zippy EVs - for some manufacturers, they may just need a nudge from government, plus there needs to be continuous investment in battery technology. And wouldn't it be nice to avoid the TSA and Spirit Airlines when you want to travel to another city in your region?

    Quote Originally Posted by mark12345 View Post
    Regarding Trump's stance on immigration - it is anything but a pet project. Just recently a truck coming across the Southern border was found to contain enough Fentanyl to kill 60 million Americans (there was another similar incident last year with a larger haul).
    Among the regular people who sneak across the border there are all manner of criminals coming in, including some 80,000 MS 13 gang members currently in the country after sneaking across.
    Quote Originally Posted by SkStu View Post
    If you are deciding to now challenge whether it is 80,000 MS13 members that have crossed the border, my answer is simple. Even if it was just one of these animals that had crossed the border, then it would be one too many and steps should be taken to discourage any more from crossing. Do you agree?
    That's like saying the border between Ireland and Britain should have been closed for the last half a century

    Justice department figures - 10,000 MS 13 members in US, most joined in the US - https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlo...=.3e92cdd18771
    Last edited by samhaydenjr; 06/03/2019 at 1:49 AM.

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    Capped Player SkStu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by samhaydenjr View Post
    That's like saying the border between Ireland and Britain should have been closed for the last half a century
    It’s not at all like that. They were/are politically and geographically very different situations. That’s a bad analogy Sam, with respect, and if nothing else I’m not at all calling for a closed border (perhaps depending on how you’d define “closed”).

    Not to let the thread go too far down this rabbit hole but the British government was doing all it could to prevent known terrorists from entering into Britain during the troubles. They were gathering intelligence about the movements of known terrorists North and south of the border to prevent cross border/channel travel and were carrying out thorough ID checks at all ports of entry. In addition, the NI/Ireland border was policed and patrolled almost constantly during the troubles and there was, of course, the so called “nuclear option” that was discussed a few times during the troubles which was a militarized wall between NI and Ireland. It was never implemented as it would have been a powder keg but it was a serious consideration of the British Govt more than once at the height of the troubles.

    Long story short I think that any government has an obligation to protect its people from anyone that it knows wants to enter into its country with nefarious intent. Do you agree?

    A border wall (which does not equal a “closed border”) would funnel all migrants - good, bad and indifferent - through formal ports of entry. Criminals and gang members would be weeded out or would not even try. This would be a good thing. No?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SkStu View Post
    Why don't you contribute when you are willing to do so in a constructive manner on the issues.
    That is constructive. Personally I find that racism, sexism, misogyny, bullying, saying neo-Nazis are good people, declaring serial bankruptcy to avoid paying debts, delusional lying, strategic lying and disinformation, incoherent ranting to whip up fear and anger, ranting about illegal immigrants but employing them because they're cheap, cosying up to dictators, Obama's birth cert bull5hit, surrounding oneself with now convicted felons as advisors, surrounding oneself by advisors like Bolton and Bannon, setting up a bogus real estate college and settling out of court with swindled students, tax cuts for the rich while the poor get poorer, throwing a tantrum that led to the longest shutdown and getting a worse deal than was originally on the table, paying off porn stars and centrefolds because one can't keep it in one's pants, being led by the nose by Fox, narcissism, nepotism, cowardice in serial draft dodging with a fabricated medical complaint as serious as a broken nail, cowardice in knowing one is a coward and loathing people who served with distinction in their country's armed force as a consequence, acting like a tin-pot dictator and failing to inspire confidence in one's ability to organise the proverbial in a brewery point to generally low standards. And need to be called out.

    Apologises if I've left something out. I'm sure someone will correct the record.
    Last edited by Eminence Grise; 06/03/2019 at 8:44 AM.
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    Director dahamsta's Avatar
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    Lads, ye're going to start providing sources for your claims in this thread or I'm going to have to shut it down. Non-paywalled sources.

    If you make a claim without sources, and it's refuted, you need to retract it in your original post, or in a new post.

    Evidence and facts please. You're not allowed to state an opinion without them.

    Persistent offenders will be banned from this forum.

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    Capped Player SkStu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eminence Grise View Post
    That is constructive. Personally I find that racism, sexism, misogyny, bullying, saying neo-Nazis are good people, declaring serial bankruptcy to avoid paying debts, delusional lying, strategic lying and disinformation, incoherent ranting to whip up fear and anger, ranting about illegal immigrants but employing them because they're cheap, cosying up to dictators, Obama's birth cert bull5hit, surrounding oneself with now convicted felons as advisors, surrounding oneself by advisors like Bolton and Bannon, setting up a bogus real estate college and settling out of court with swindled students, tax cuts for the rich while the poor get poorer, throwing a tantrum that led to the longest shutdown and getting a worse deal than was originally on the table, paying off porn stars and centrefolds because one can't keep it in one's pants, being led by the nose by Fox, narcissism, nepotism, cowardice in serial draft dodging with a fabricated medical complaint as serious as a broken nail, cowardice in knowing one is a coward and loathing people who served with distinction in their country's armed force as a consequence, acting like a tin-pot dictator and failing to inspire confidence in one's ability to organise the proverbial in a brewery point to generally low standards. And need to be called out.

    Apologises if I've left something out. I'm sure someone will correct the record.
    Nice post and all but it has nothing to do with the substance of what has been talked about on here; namely - Rutger Bregman, the 15 hour work week, open borders, whether ideals need to be practical, Green New Deal, MS13 & Border security. There's plenty of substantive issues for us all to discuss there EG without feeling obliged to focus in on the Bad Orange Man. I think the thread will be more pleasant and enjoyable and may last longer if we focus on the issues and provide opinions, facts and data related to the issues and try and steer away from Trump himself as much as possible.

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    The thread is actually about Fox News. And it got derailed. But I agree: let's keep it on topic. It's only fair to the OP.
    Hello, hello? What's going on? What's all this shouting, we'll have no trouble here!
    - E Tattsyrup.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Real ale Madrid View Post
    Thanks The Fly - you've ruined this!
    I did apologise...twice.

    We could change the thread title to The Political Philosophy (& Fox News) Thread.
    Last edited by The Fly; 06/03/2019 at 8:35 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SkStu View Post
    Why don't you contribute when you are willing to do so in a constructive manner on the issues.
    I couldn't have said it better myself Stu.

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    International Prospect osarusan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mark12345 View Post
    I couldn't have said it better myself Stu.
    Can you provide some evidence to support your claim that 80,000 MS13 members have made their way into the USA
    across the border?

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  15. #73
    The Cheeto God Real ale Madrid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Fly View Post
    I did apologise...twice.
    Ah I was only joking!

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fly View Post
    We could change the thread title to The Political Philosophy (& Fox News) Thread.
    Good idea actually - its actually an extension of the previous Trump thread because he is at the center of all this nonsense. No doubt the lack of substantiation of all the ridiculous claims posted here will see the thread shut anyway.

    Can someone change the title to 'US Politics' or something generic like that?
    If a dog weighs under 50 lbs it's a cat, and cats are useless.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peadar1987 View Post
    I don't think it's fair to call Syrian, Afghan and Libyan refugees "economic migrants". I'm not in favour of completely open borders, but I think we have a moral obligation to help people whose lives have been destroyed by war, and I only wish other nations had been as generous as the Germans.
    Finally, a voice of reason and intelligence (although as Stu said, I think the Germans have gone way overboard with their generosity).
    Morally we should try to help peoples affected by war and starvation - this is true. But open borders in any country means you don't have a country but a 'neighbourhood' which any amount of people with any amount of bad intentions can pass through.
    Just a couple of statistics from this morning (Fox And Friends) on American TV.
    Some 76,000 peope have been apprehended trying to cross the southern border - in February alone.
    Putting that into perspective - that's slightly more than a normal home game at Old Trafford.
    And a little more perspective - 2542 (recalling this from a radio show interview the other day) of homicides in Mexico in February alone, and 26,000 in 2017 means people are trying to escape that country like never before.

    And according to the testimony of the Secy of Homeland Security (Kirstjen Nielsen) yesterday, the US is on course to accept (whether they want them or not) 1 million illegal immigrants in 2019.
    Does anyone think Ireland would 'accept' 100 K immigrants this year? And if they do, what would be the impact on the economy in Ireland?
    And another statistic (from Nielsen) - 80 per cent of border crossers do not go through the ports of entry. Hence the need for a wall.
    Oh and there was that recent massive Fentanyl bust (in reality, more deadly than any of the deadliest missiles on the planet) that seems to have been forgotten.

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    mark12345, do you have any evidence to support your claim that 80,000 MS13 members have made their way into the USA by sneaking across the border?

    From my own googling, the figure floating about is 10,000 members in the country, which comes from a 2009 report by the FBI's National Gang Threat Assessment. There doesn't seem to be any more up-to-date statistics than that from the FBI at least.

    Can you show us where/how you arrived at your figure of 80,000?
    Last edited by osarusan; 07/03/2019 at 1:33 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Real ale Madrid View Post
    Good idea actually - its actually an extension of the previous Trump thread because he is at the center of all this nonsense. No doubt the lack of substantiation of all the ridiculous claims posted here will see the thread shut anyway.
    Look, I’ll say it again. If we can keep Trump out of this and debate the often times ridiculous issues that are being raised by “both sides of the aisle” (there ain’t two!) we stand a pretty good chance of self policing the thread and keeping it active.

    He’s not at the centre of it - the issues that are legitimately dividing people across the globe are at the centre of it. We should be able to respectfully and constructively debate these.

    I agree with DaHamsta that claims should be backed up with sources or facts. Stated opinions I think we should be a lot more tolerant of as long as they aren’t belligerent or hate-speech.

    I think I’ve made two claims on here that weren’t backed up with evidence.

    1) USA and others co2 reductions
    2) NI border security issues

    Happy to provide sources on these if desired.

    In the interests of holding each other to the same standard, I see a lot of unsubstantiated claims in EGs post about Trump that should be fully sourced or fully deleted. And I’d recommend that Mark deletes his claim about 80k MS13 and elimination of air travel as he’s been asked 3 times already and has not provided any source.

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    Quote Originally Posted by osarusan View Post
    mark12345, do you have any evidence to support your claim that 80,000 MS13 members have made their way into the USA by sneaking across the border?

    From my own googling, the figure floating about is 10,000 members in the country, which comes from a 2009 report by the FBI's National Gang Threat Assessment. There doesn't seem to be any more up-to-date statistics than that from the FBI at least.

    Can you show us where/how you arrived at your figure of 80,000?
    I believe I heard it on talk radio some time last fall. I don't have the time or energy to go digging it out, but I can give you a point of reference.
    MS 13 are a gang of El Salvadorian origin.
    Now I heard that either one third or two thirds of the population of El Salvador (I can't remember which figure is true but I'm sure it's easily attainalbe) lives in the United States.
    So is it that much of a stretch to believe that there are 80,000 MS 13 gang members in the country?
    That said, I can tell you I'm not lying to you - I did hear the figure of 80K mentioned.
    It is said that many of them were brought to the border as unaccompanied minors, admitted to the country on humanitarian grounds, and then ended up in the gang, admission to which has progressed from rape, to rape and murder, to murder and mutiliation, as I understand it.
    I know the Trump administration has been active over the last several months in trying to bring them to heel and the president himself has mentioned them in tweets.

    On another note, the Democrats are calling the influx of illegal immigrants on the border 'a manufactured crisis'.
    That means that all we are discussing here, illegal immigration in the hundreds of thousands, mountains of drugs on any given day, and the now deadly drug Fentanyl with the capacity to kill millions of Amercians, MS 13 gang memebers and terrorists who have been imbedded in the migrant caravans, are all 'manufactured'.
    And then of course there are the hundreds of Americans killed each year by illegal immigrant drunk drivers and criminals. Maybe the Dems should tell the surviving family members that their departed sons and daughters
    are 'manufactured'.

    Ultimately...........we have all heard Donald Trump call Washington a swamp many times. Some people tend to take that with a grain of salt. But Trump has never been more right. I predict (hope I'm wrong, but I would be very surprised if I am) that the swamp will face its acid test in the coming weeks when they are forced to vote on the Emergency Declaration bill by the president (ie relative to building a wall on the border). What way will they vote? Well, shock of all shocks, the Dems will oppose it and, predictable as they always are, the anti-Democrats who are supposed to represent the interests of those who voted for them (otherwise known as the Republicans) will side with the Democrats against the president.

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    Given that I never named Trump but you immediately knew to whom I referred, the evidentiary threshold seems somewhat lower than some posts here. Which assertion in particular have you not heard or seen reported by journalists before? Actually, you don't need to answer. We've had good engagement in other threads (books and reading especially) so let's acknowledge that our politics will never align, and drop it. This is my last post in the thread. To be honest, I'd suggest locking it and starting with a similar title.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkStu View Post
    Look, I’ll say it again. If we can keep Trump out of this and debate the often times ridiculous issues that are being raised by “both sides of the aisle” (there ain’t two!) we stand a pretty good chance of self policing the thread and keeping it active.

    He’s not at the centre of it - the issues that are legitimately dividing people across the globe are at the centre of it. We should be able to respectfully and constructively debate these.

    I agree with DaHamsta that claims should be backed up with sources or facts. Stated opinions I think we should be a lot more tolerant of as long as they aren’t belligerent or hate-speech.

    I think I’ve made two claims on here that weren’t backed up with evidence.

    1) USA and others co2 reductions
    2) NI border security issues

    Happy to provide sources on these if desired.

    In the interests of holding each other to the same standard, I see a lot of unsubstantiated claims in EGs post about Trump that should be fully sourced or fully deleted. And I’d recommend that Mark deletes his claim about 80k MS13 and elimination of air travel as he’s been asked 3 times already and has not provided any source.
    Since my name is mentioned here I probably should respond (admitting at the same time that we have strayed quite a bit of the original topic).
    I hope I have addressed the MS 13 issue below in a reply to osarun.
    As an aside, is there some significance to the number of gang members?
    Someone (osarun I believe) said that his figures were from 2009. This is nine years later (or eight when I heard 80 K).
    Think I said it before, but I listen to / watch about 23 hours of American political news and commentary each week - I suppose I should get a life.
    How did I get to spend so much time on politics, a thought which I would have laughed at just a few years ago - witch hunts and demonstrable lies from the media (think Paul Manafort, the Parkland school shooting and its aftermath, and Brett Kavanaugh).
    And the commentators I listen to are pretty reliable as far as I am concerned, notwithstanding the fact that I know all the TV networks have bills to pay and ratings to keep.

    One last thing I would like to say to Stu. The following statement puts you head and shoulders above millions of others out there because you can actually see the forest for the trees:

    "the issues that are legitimately dividing people across the globe are at the centre of it. We should be able to respectfully and constructively debate these."

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    Director dahamsta's Avatar
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    mark12345, provide sources for your claims or you will be suspended / banned from this forum, depending on your infraction history. You have 24 hours.

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