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Thread: American Politics

  1. #321
    The Cheeto God Real ale Madrid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeLorean View Post

    Has somebody got thick (other than dahamsta, I mean)?
    Well you did - with your "Dear Leader" jibe.

    I don't want to comment on Stu directly because its not my place to do so - plus we've clashed here on this repeatedly so I'm biased.. But I will say I do share some of dahamsta's frustration when I see the type of person Trump is and what he stands for - and to be honest its disheartening to see people so vehemently in favor of him and defend him and his actions. What I have done is try to be balanced in my responses and above all not make it personal but as I've pointed out repeatedly the responses are not always in kind.
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  3. #322
    Capped Player DeLorean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Real ale Madrid View Post
    Well you did - with your "Dear Leader" jibe.
    Hardly getting thick.

    Quote Originally Posted by Real ale Madrid View Post
    I don't want to comment on Stu directly because its not my place to do so - plus we've clashed here on this repeatedly so I'm biased.. But I will say I do share some of dahamsta's frustration when I see the type of person Trump is and what he stands for - and to be honest its disheartening to see people so vehemently in favor of him and defend him and his actions. What I have done is try to be balanced in my responses and above all not make it personal but as I've pointed out repeatedly the responses are not always in kind.
    All of that is fair enough, you're entitled to feel whatever way you feel. Others don't need to feel the same way though, or be ashamed of themselves because they don't feel the same.
    To be honest, I think Stu has put a lot of points to dahamsta that he can't actually refute, so it's convenient for him to play the 'I'm not engaging' card, and portray himself as protector of the "gullible and uneducated". Give me a break.

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  5. #323
    Coach tetsujin1979's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeLorean View Post
    Hardly getting thick
    You associated him with the North Korean dictatorship, how is that not getting thick?

  6. #324
    Director dahamsta's Avatar
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    I haven't engaged with either of the Trumpists in this thread in quite some time. Painting my single-sentence reply to SkuStu a couple of pages back is disingenuous (the post after that wasn't directed at him). I will continue to post facts and information in the way I have recently. I think all bar one have been sourced, by other people. Sources are sources as long as they're factual, where they're posted is irrelevant.

    I think any supporter of Trump should be ashamed of themselves at this point, the evidence against him is enormous. He is a disgusting, abhorrent individual that is destroying America, and by extension harming the world, both physically (climate) and politically (rise of fascism). I don't know what SkuStu is like in person, and never had a problem with him up until recently, but he has either drunk the Kool-aid, or is trolling. Either way, I see no value in engaging.

    I've said my piece now, I'll leave it there.

  7. #325
    Capped Player DeLorean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tetsujin1979 View Post
    You associated him with the North Korean dictatorship, how is that not getting thick?
    It was a lighthearted double meaning, given dahamsta's lack of tolerance for alternative views on this topic, Stu's in this case, and also that he is in fact our leader on here. I don't actually think he's as bad as Kim Jong. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

    P.S. You're wanted on the Pun Thread, and have been for some time.
    Last edited by DeLorean; 14/02/2020 at 1:59 PM.

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  9. #326
    Capped Player SkStu's Avatar
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    Thanks Del for the support on this but, look, DaHamsta, RAM and everyone else put out by my posts - I really don't want or mean to be a problem in all of this. For the most part, I thought I was contributing positively and fairly. I wanted to provide an alternate viewpoint and tried to be fairly open to at least listening and reflecting along the way. I've also stated many times on here that i don't tend to defend Trump the person, nor do i agree with every position/policy he takes. But I do agree with more than i disagree with. Added to that, I think he has been treated pretty unfairly by the establishment politicos and media to the extent that, from day one, he hasn't been given a fair shot at governing to the extent his predecessors have. And where I have defended from that perspective or in terms of policies i agree with, i have tried to be productive in my conversations and as i said just offer another perspective.

    I don't think I deserve, at all, the type of ire that you have for me but, that said, it might be better for me to stay away from this thread in future and allow you to have this thread be whatever it is you want it to be. This is not me pouting or sulking or taking my ball and going home but I could do with avoiding the type of stuff in the last few messages from DaH about my character. And me stepping away from this voluntarily is something i can control to prevent that.

  10. #327
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkStu View Post
    Thanks Del for the support on this but, look, DaHamsta, RAM and everyone else put out by my posts - I really don't want or mean to be a problem in all of this. For the most part, I thought I was contributing positively and fairly. I wanted to provide an alternate viewpoint and tried to be fairly open to at least listening and reflecting along the way. I've also stated many times on here that i don't tend to defend Trump the person, nor do i agree with every position/policy he takes. But I do agree with more than i disagree with. Added to that, I think he has been treated pretty unfairly by the establishment politicos and media to the extent that, from day one, he hasn't been given a fair shot at governing to the extent his predecessors have. And where I have defended from that perspective or in terms of policies i agree with, i have tried to be productive in my conversations and as i said just offer another perspective.

    I don't think I deserve, at all, the type of ire that you have for me but, that said, it might be better for me to stay away from this thread in future and allow you to have this thread be whatever it is you want it to be. This is not me pouting or sulking or taking my ball and going home but I could do with avoiding the type of stuff in the last few messages from DaH about my character. And me stepping away from this voluntarily is something i can control to prevent that.
    OK I want to come in here and say that perhaps everybody needs to take it down a notch - one of the main principles of debate on foot.ie has always been "attack the post, not the poster" and yes, I will agree that dahamsta has failed in this regard in his personal attacks on you - you should be able to make your point without being subject to insult, particularly from a moderator.

    Now, on the other hand, there is a reason defending Trump can cause such anger (and yes this may run slightly counter to what I just said) - we consider him to be scum - and no, we don't need the New York Times to form this opinion for us - just our own eyes and ears tell us this:
    - when two of his opening campaign speeches are probably the two most racist major political speeches since 1930s Germany (undocumented Mexican immigrants are a bunch of criminal, drug-dealing rapists and "Ban Muslims!")
    - when he tries to minimize the actions of murderous Neo-Nazis
    - when he implies that one of the (numerous) women who accuses him of assault is too ugly to rape
    - when he's clearly funnelling taxpayer money towards his own businesses
    - when he mocks somebody's physical disability
    - when he abandoned the Kurds, after they defeated ISIS
    - and my personal belief (although I recently found an article that might support it) - that The Wall may actually be a cash grab for his cronies
    - etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc.,

    So I guess what I'm saying is Stu, you should be able to make your point without us losing our rag with you (we do have a responsibility to suck it up to allow for reasoned debate), but at the same time I will agree with dahamsta that you're going to have to seriously back up your viewpoint with proper facts and references to respectable sources - and no, there isn't an equivalence between a liberal media outlet which adheres to journalistic ethics like The New York Times and Conservative Activist media of the type Mark12345 sent me to earlier in this thread.

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  12. #328
    Director dahamsta's Avatar
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    While I accept that my posts could be considered to be personal attacks, they're genuine opinions on what I consider to be bizarre and/or offensive behaviour. It's not "you're disgusting", it's "your behaviour disgusts me". There's a difference, IMHO.

    I've stated elsewhere, including on posts in the mod forum discussing SkuStu's recent behaviour here, that I never had a problem with him before this thread. However the simple fact of the matter is that his beliefs and/or behaviours on this subject - I'm still not sure if it's belief or trolling - are offensive to me both as a person (not based in reality, supportive of a wannabe dictator and party) and a moderator (disruptive, rulebreaking). And while that can be construed as an insult, I consider it a heartfelt opinion. I'm not going to apologise, because it would be a "if you were offended, I'm sorry" apology, and we all know that's not an apology.

    I think SkuStu is the more sensible of the pair, and that perhaps he's just misguided. But the simple fact of the matter is that the arguments are not genuine or factual. Belief does not count, this isn't a religious forum, or The_Donald. The facts are against Trump and the GOP, there is no credible evidence to support them. Even Trump and the GOP know that, which is why they don't allow evidence or facts.

    The simple answer is to moderate this thread according to the rules, but that will create accusations of bias because I will forbid dodgy sources, and they will inevitably be banned. I'm not sure where to go from here TBH. Perhaps I should just avoid the thread, but I don't like this nonsense going unchecked.

  13. #329
    Seasoned Pro cfdh_edmundo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dahamsta View Post

    Trump's record on the military, veterans, and military families


    • ⁠Russia took control of the main U.S. military facility in Syria abandoned on Trump’s orders. Russia now owns the airstrip we built. •
    I don't think that many US citizens will be disappointed with the, admittedly incomplete, withdrawal from Syria. What was the US going to achieve there, regime change? It didn't work out too well in Iraq, and some of the rebels in Syria are worse than you think in terms of women rights, minority rights etc. If you replace tyranny with anarchy you achieve nothing.


    ⁠Trump sent thousands of American troops to defend the oil assets of the country that perpetrated 9/11.
    I agree that this isn't great, but this has been the policy for generations. Bush didn't go after them when he should have and Obama and Democratic senator encouraged the appalling public suppression on the 9/11 inquiry in 2016. I think it's disingenuous to portray a cosy relationship with that country as a uniquely Trump-driven policy.

    • ⁠On July 31, 2019, Trump ordered the Navy rescind medals to prosecutors who were prosecuted war criminals
    Prosecutors who were "prosecuted war criminals", who writes this gibberish? That's arguably as incoherent as some of his tweets. Does the "author" mean prosecutors were themselves alleged war criminals? Were they found guilty? Do tell ?

  14. #330
    The Cheeto God Real ale Madrid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cfdh_edmundo View Post
    Prosecutors who were "prosecuted war criminals", who writes this gibberish? That's arguably as incoherent as some of his tweets. Does the "author" mean prosecutors were themselves alleged war criminals? Were they found guilty? Do tell ?
    All you have to do is literally copy and paste into google to get the background info. You will get multiple hits that all say the same thing.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/31/u...ar-crimes.html

    WASHINGTON — President Trump intervened Tuesday once again on behalf of a Navy SEAL who was charged but acquitted of war crimes in the death of a captured Islamic State fighter in Iraq, ordering the military to punish the prosecutors who tried the case in the first place.

    Mr. Trump angrily lashed out at the Navy for awarding commendations to prosecutors in the murder trial of Edward Gallagher, a former special operations chief, and he publicly instructed Pentagon officials to strip them of the medals. His announcement was a remarkable rebuke by a president of his own Navy leadership.
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  15. #331
    Seasoned Pro cfdh_edmundo's Avatar
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    I don't think they say the "same" thing. Someone being prosecuted for war crimes is quite different to someone prosecuting war criminals, no?

  16. #332
    The Cheeto God Real ale Madrid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cfdh_edmundo View Post
    I don't think they say the "same" thing. Someone being prosecuted for war crimes is quite different to someone prosecuting war criminals, no?
    Its a typo - should say : • ⁠On July 31, 2019, Trump ordered the Navy rescind medals to prosecutors who prosecuted war criminals.
    If a dog weighs under 50 lbs it's a cat, and cats are useless.

  17. #333
    Seasoned Pro cfdh_edmundo's Avatar
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    Well when a typo inherently changes the meaning of the sentence you start to doubt the credibility of the source.

  18. #334
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    Quote Originally Posted by dahamsta View Post
    We are not, given your posts in this thread. I don't know if you believe what you're saying or if you're just having a little fun, but I won't be conversing with you on these issues. It's not funny. It's dangerous, and I'm not engaging with it bar continuing to post facts and information in the hope that the gullible and/or uneducated won't follow your lead. You should be ashamed of your beliefs and/or actions. They are destroying society and they disgust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by dahamsta View Post
    While I accept that my posts could be considered to be personal attacks, they're genuine opinions on what I consider to be bizarre and/or offensive behaviour. It's not "you're disgusting", it's "your behaviour disgusts me". There's a difference, IMHO.

    I've stated elsewhere, including on posts in the mod forum discussing SkuStu's recent behaviour here, that I never had a problem with him before this thread. However the simple fact of the matter is that his beliefs and/or behaviours on this subject - I'm still not sure if it's belief or trolling - are offensive to me both as a person (not based in reality, supportive of a wannabe dictator and party) and a moderator (disruptive, rulebreaking). And while that can be construed as an insult, I consider it a heartfelt opinion. I'm not going to apologise, because it would be a "if you were offended, I'm sorry" apology, and we all know that's not an apology.

    I think SkuStu is the more sensible of the pair, and that perhaps he's just misguided. But the simple fact of the matter is that the arguments are not genuine or factual. Belief does not count, this isn't a religious forum, or The_Donald. The facts are against Trump and the GOP, there is no credible evidence to support them. Even Trump and the GOP know that, which is why they don't allow evidence or facts.

    The simple answer is to moderate this thread according to the rules, but that will create accusations of bias because I will forbid dodgy sources, and they will inevitably be banned. I'm not sure where to go from here TBH. Perhaps I should just avoid the thread, but I don't like this nonsense going unchecked.
    When you say that Stu's views disgust you, it might not be as bad as saying Stu disgusts you, but it's still well beyond what should be acceptable. Listen, one of the reasons I like foot.ie because it's a little haven from the horrors that passes for debate elsewhere on the internet - even on this thread, while things can get understandably testy, we should still try to take each other's views at face value and debate them on their merits without demeaning their proponents.

    As regards where to go in terms of sources, I'm not completely familiar with the rules but I think you have two choices:
    1. Clearly define for those who take on a more Conservative/right-wing opinion what constitutes acceptable and unacceptable sources: Fox News? The Washington Times? Breitbart? Infowars? The Republican Party? The Wall Street Journal? Conservative activist media?
    2. Let them use whatever sources they want and face the consequences if it's not reasonable
    Last edited by samhaydenjr; 18/02/2020 at 2:23 AM.

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  20. #335
    The Cheeto God Real ale Madrid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by samhaydenjr View Post
    When you say that Stu's views disgust you, it might not be as bad as saying Stu disgusts you, but it's still well beyond what should be acceptable.
    Do you not think Trump is a disgusting person?
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  21. #336
    Capped Player DeLorean's Avatar
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    Sam already said he considers Trump to be scum, and even gave a list of reasons as to why.

  22. #337
    The Cheeto God Real ale Madrid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeLorean View Post
    Sam already said he considers Trump to be scum, and even gave a list of reasons as to why.
    Fair enough missed that.

    I just don't understand the mentality of people
    1. Defending this scumbag
    2. Defending the right of others to defend said scumbag.

    As soon as someone overreacts (a little) the place is suddenly populated with people having a go

    Where were you and Sam when Trump defenders would constantly rubbish people's views that don't agree with their world view.

    Paraphrasing here but examples include:

    'Oh man you cannot be serious right now'

    You gotta engage more honestly.

    Go find a safe space if you are not intelligent enough to converse honestly.

    Do you not realise how close minded that makes you look!
    Again, I'm not saying people are not entitled to their views. They are. But defend a 'scumbag' and expect a reaction from others that is in line with the opposite viewpoint. Why you would openly defend him is beyond me anyway.
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  23. #338
    Capped Player DeLorean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Real ale Madrid View Post
    As soon as someone overreacts (a little) the place is suddenly populated with people having a go
    It's a mere two posters suggesting dahamsta could tone down the personal nature of his posts to/about Stu. Let's not exaggerate.


    Quote Originally Posted by Real ale Madrid View Post
    Where were you and Sam when Trump defenders would constantly rubbish people's views that don't agree with their world view.
    Just late to the thread, RAM. Sorry about that, next time I see somebody rubbishing your views, I'll jump straight in.
    Last edited by DeLorean; 18/02/2020 at 11:38 AM.

  24. #339
    The Cheeto God Real ale Madrid's Avatar
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    George Papadopoulos
    Rick Gates
    Michael Flynn
    Michael Cohen
    Paul Manafort

    and now Roger Stone
    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...loomberg-trump

    How do all these associates of Trump find themselves in trouble with the law. He must be the unluckiest President in history.
    If a dog weighs under 50 lbs it's a cat, and cats are useless.

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