no matter how many love letters you write to mick, his time was up and his day in football is long gone. kenny aint the answer but mick certainly wasnt either.Originally Posted by BOOMSHAKALAKA
That wasn't a love letter to McCarthy, it was just a good old fashioned filleting of the defense of Kenny. My last few sentences in the post you quoted show that I don't think McCarthy should have been kept on either but he was replaced by a manager worse than Stan. Probably our worst ever manager.
We just got 7 points out of the NL group. How did England get on? Wales? France, the defending champions? We've won 2 of our last 3 games, won 3 home games this year. We recently went 3 years without a home win at all.
We're not preparing for 2024, we're a transition team bringing through new players playing a totally different kind of football to anything we've seen in the past 20-30 years, where after every failed campaign (and there were many) there would be a massive inquiry into why we didn't qualify and what we need to change. The change is currently happening, and people like you can't accept it because results are going to be affected, and have been.
Every team goes through transition. Some of them have the luxury of having enough resources to do so without suffering on the pitch. But we don't have those resources, so we have to find them and develop them, and it takes time when everyone wants results yesterday.
We've qualified for 2 tournaments in 20 years. So we've got to accept where we stand and drop the demands that we either qualify or sack the manager. Otherwise no manager will want to do the job.
Punching above our weight is a bonus. Punching at our weight is where the benchmark should be. Too often, Kenny has had us punching below our weight.
There's no doubt that we have a dearth of players compared to some past squads. There's also no doubt that we've gone backwards by standing still as so many other countries get their act together in terms of facilities and footballing infrastructure.
But all that said, some of the results under Kenny have been inexcusable. We are losing to teams, and failing to beat teams, that we should be dismissing with ease, despite our weaknesses.
Now, if those preformances and results were mere blips on the road in a journey that was obviously showing great promise otherwise, they might be tolerable. But, in my case at least, I'm not convinced that any great improvement is being made at all, or any great transition is taking place at all.
Last edited by osarusan; 26/11/2022 at 4:03 PM.
That's some amount of spin and bluster, typical of Kenny's reign. We got 7 points battling it out with Armenia at the bottom of our group, way off the top. What other countries did is irrelevant. Kenny's only wins have been against Scotland, Luxembourg, Azerbaijan, Armenia, Lithuania, Malta, Qatar and Andorra. Played 30, won 8, drawn 11, lost 11. You'd actually think he was doing a decent job looking at your post but the facts prove otherwise.
Not preparing for 2024? Is it 2026 now? 2028? Soon Kenny will have everything in place to give the World Cup 2038 a good go. Kenny has us playing some of the worst stuff we've seen in longer than the past 20-30 years. He's just not capable at this level or anywhere near it. He has had to get coaches on board to show him some basic tactics, formations etc. Why not just hire those coaches? Why waste any more time on this clown? The players are laughing at him in the dressing room.
We don't have those resources yet we should have qualified for the Euros with the same squad Kenny had just 2 years ago? It's not his failure to qualify that's the issue, it's that he hasn't even come close to qualification. Lost to Slovakia, came near the bottom of his first Nations League, came near the bottom of World Cup qualification, came near the bottom of his second Nations League. Repeated failure with no sign of things improving. That's why he has to be sacked. No amount of spin can counteract that.
Where did I completely ignore McCarthy’s tenure just before Kenny? The one where we were rubbish twice against Gibraltar, took one point from Switzerland. Two decent points against Denmark though. I don’t think it’s relevant to my point.
We've just had our best ever NL campaign by some margin, and then you tell me we're not making progress. This is what I have to debate with, here and elsewhere.
Our resources have been way behind most countries and dwindling for the past 10-15 years. When those players couldn't be replaced, we played ever more negative football to compensate. Indeed I struggle to recall any game since about 2008, when there wasn't a referendum held on whether he should stay or go after it, win lose or neither. The team was getting booed off after games during campaigns when we qualified, let alone when we didn't. When they failed, we sacked the manager.
Now we are in transition because as a tactic, parking the bus and hoping to nick a goal off Duffy's head from a setpiece had a limited shelf life. We had two chances to get to the last Euros before Kenny arrived and it didn't happen. If you want to get to the tournaments, you have to try and win matches, not simply park the bus and hope to draw your way to tournaments.
I don't know what tournament we're preparing for, I don't think that's the priority right now. The priority should be bringing new players through and developing them to the stage that when we qualify the next time, they're able to cope at the top table of the game. That's what we're trying to do, and we need to let the manager get on with doing it.
I do miss the days when our on field tactics were a better metaphor for our off field strategies. At least there was a better synergy between the lack of planning on both fronts.
I admire your continued confidence mypost but I don't think we are really seeing the manager bringing players through or trying models that might get the most out of what we have at this point. For a time maybe but these friendlies were a completely botched opportunity. In the grand scheme of things maybe it's fine, end of season fare and all that but for me that almost makes it worse. Why play players who have checked out and have nothing to prove? Why put Kelleher in for the game he'd face less action in? Why not try him against Norway? If Ferguson has the potential to be the main man why not get him in now and run with it. Why not put Ogbene at wingback? We know what we have with Doherty. It was Malta, why not try Hodge etc? Why not try a different formation or approach? Our third string should be able for Malta. Why not bring in all the fringe players and see who might be worth a place? He's operating in a scenario where he can't actually do the job that's required for fear of losing the job. Very frustrating. Maybe more patience is required but I'm just not seeing the big picture planning anymore. Jeff Hendrick ffs.
Ultimately I still think we are a long way away from competing and our priority, with very limited resources, shouldn't even be the national team if we are serious about competing properly. There's plenty to do in Ireland to develop players who can compete and we have nothing to do it with. Clearing debts and focusing on facilities at home should be the goal for me...or following any sort of model to improve our team. Luxembourg, Iceland etc all had a plan. We just keep hitting and hoping. That said, I wouldn't mind someone else coming in with a fresh slate. The endless referenda and gas lighting from all sides is getting so tiresome.
21 leagues and 25 cups.
You were saying we're a tier 3 nation, not having the players anymore but conveniently forgot to mention that directly prior to Kenny taking over, we should have qualified ahead of Denmark. That's the problem with trying to defend Kenny, you have to ignore so much evidence and still the argument is **** poor. You yet again had to ignore the rest of my points which destroyed your argument.
More spin and wishy washy nonsense. Our aim now is not to qualify for tournaments but to start winning the possession stats against our opposition.Like the other poster, you have to ignore the campaign directly before Kenny. Somehow with worse resources, our previous manager managed to make us competitive with teams who went far in the last Euros. Now we're competing with Azerbaijan and Armenia. And swinging the ball into Duffy has saved Kenny from an even more embarrassing record, he's scored 4 times under Kenny. You couldn't make it up!
It is tiresome, but we're not going to change manager after winning a game. We continue on the project that we're on, whether we win or not, without demanding that we either qualify or sack the manager.
It's going to be impossible for a new man to come in with a clean slate. He's going to have the likes of me on his back from Day 1, hounding him for parking the bus and not winning games, and eventually everyone else will see through him. Then he gets sacked, the next man is appointed and the cycle repeats itself. It's a toxic environment for any manager to work in, and doesn't allow him any leeway to see what works and what doesn't, or any long term plan. The demand is either win or find someone else who will try to get Championship level squads that we have, to tournaments against the superstars of the sport.
My gut - and my heart - continue to lean more towards the mypost school of thought in that the transition and journey we are on, and the personnel, remain right and it is just taking longer than i had thought it should. My head, though, just cant get past this last window and the entire paragraph set out by OTOH above. It was, in my opinion, his biggest failure to date for all the reasons in the bit i quoted. It was a disaster. It was cowardly and weak. I expected way more in terms of how he would use the squad.
With that coming quickly after a generally disappointing NL campaign (it was an unstable rollercoaster ride v. a continued, modest upward trajectory), he has kind of lost my faith and I do think another manager could come in and probably do a better overall job with this group of players - but it wont be significantly better. No matter your thoughts on Kenny, lets not kid ourselves. If you disagree with that, you are in for some serious disappointment. Some of our players appear to have potential or a high ceiling but they are still relatively young, they havent come close to that ceiling and, in most cases, they are realistically still trying to prove themselves at club level - a level that generally continues on a downward trajectory. The Irish football system continues to operate without a cohesive vision or plan on how to maximize our potential using all options - domestic and oversees - as a nation our decline, i think, will continue no matter who the manager is - we continue to slide further towards big trouble and it started 30 years ago, not upon the appointment of SK.
Should he go? Yes.
Will things get better? Maybe but not much (even without the prospect of facing France and the Netherlands).
Is BS' perspective reasonable or accurate? No, its BS.
No one is expecting us to win the Euros! And qualifying will be difficult. It's not too much to ask that we are competitive though. It's crazy that some people are saying that what has been offered in the past 2 years has shown any sign of progress. We've clearly gone backwards. And by a long way. The only BS is the defense of Kenny, this page alone would give you clear evidence of this. As an example, a defender of Kenny was trying to claim that Kenny has moved us on from the dinosaur tactics of lofting it into the big man and hoping for the best. Duffy being the big man in this case. The only problem is that Duffy is one of the highest goal scorers under Kenny, scoring 4 goals and has been thrown up front late in games on numerous occasions. It's laughable, almost as bad as a Kenny interview!
You want him to have us be competitive, yet you were probably one of those lashing into him for saying our ambition was to top the NL group. When did we last top a group? 1987. And that was only because of someone else.
Duffy has scored a few goals in the last 2 years, but other players have as well. We scored 8 goals in our last 4 NL games, more goals than was scored in Mick's last campaign. We took 7 points from our last 4 games. We even won a home game 3-0, at a canter, the easy way. The response to all that improvement was, sack the manager. Name me one manager, Irish or otherwise that wants to do this job in that kind of environment.
I don't expect us to qualify for the Euros, not even before the draw was made. And it's not the end of the world if we can't beat Holland and France. They're a considerable step up in quality from having to beat Denmark and Switzerland, and we weren't good enough to beat them either. But the answer is for us to find better players who are capable of passing a football around a pitch, not change the manager every time.
Oh get over yourself will you. I’ve better things to do with my life than address every sentence you write. I didn’t ignore Mick’s tenure for any tactical purpose, it was because it wasn't relevant. And I forgot we were utter drivel twice against Georgia.
"Should" we have qualified ahead of Denmark? Really?
In general there’s of course a degree of truth in what you’re saying. Everyone sees the flaws in Kenny and the general direction but you don’t help yourself with the sheer hysterical degree to which you’re making these points and the disingenuousness with which you engage.
Fwiw (using a mobile in a cafe so not easy to navigate) I’m around the same as SkStu and - I think - Osarusan (if I understood his point above right).I think the steps forward were encouraging (Scotland, Ukraine away, Portugal away, two away wins with some really good goals, in Luxembourg in particular) but the steps back have been too frequent and too large to have any confidence. We’ve wasted some good opportunities to go the full hog and do a real root and branch rebuild. The last window made O'Neill look experimental. He should have used Ebosele last year imho.
But there were mitigants at times to the first third of his tenure: Covid, empty stadia, Hourihane’s miss (Jesus Christ…how? And subsequently his gift of a goal to Armenia), Randolph’s inexplicable mistake in Helsinki when we were doing just fine. The U21s were doing well so it was arguably right to leave them be. And subsequently Idah’s injury, Connolly’s everything…
I think we’re behind where we should be after 3 years but I maintain that what Kenny started/tried to start should be finished. I don’t care by whom.
Last edited by Stuttgart88; 27/11/2022 at 12:39 PM.
More or less the same. Yes, good performances which allow you to wonder if we've finally turned a corner are followed by performances which show we haven't.
Is the ratio of punch to/above our weight performances : punch below our weight performances any better now than it was a couple of years ago? I don't really think so.
I think the problem for Kenny now is he feels he's close to the sack, so he probably has to resort to the old guard (Hendrick, for example) more than he'd like, to avoid a defeat which might be the last straw, and having to do this will slow down whatever transformative process he is trying to implement even more.
And while Kenny does deserve credit for bringing through a bunch of players, as you listed earlier, there is still a good/better/best way to do that, and Kenny has brought them into a team that is playing in fits and starts, and malfunctioning at times.
And in response to your very last line, you should care by whom. Now, I'm being a little glib there, as I know you care as deeply as anybody else on this forum, if not more than most. But we should care, because it's a process that can be completed on a scale ranging from brilliantly to disasterously, and for me, Kenny is, unfortunately, at the lower end of that scale. We can, and should, get somebody who is more capable and will do a better job of it.
Last edited by osarusan; 27/11/2022 at 1:00 PM.
I didn't. We were shyte against Gibraltar and Georgia twice. Brushed aside by Switzerland away. A good point in Denmark, all down to - yes - a late Duffy goal. If a Duffy goal is good enough for Mick then it should be good enough for Kenny.
Worse resources? Are you sure?
See above. Swinging the ball into Duffy made us competitive against Denmark.
He should be sacked because he has had 4 miserable failures already. Slovakia, nations league 2020, world cup qualification, nations league 2022. Your cherry picking just won't cut it. It might be alright for you to give up all chance of qualifying for things just because you've backed Kenny and can't admit you backed a donkey.
For most of us, we want to qualify for major tournaments. Saying we might as well give up before starting a group with Serbia and Portugal or France and Holland is not on. We haven't done that for at least 30-40 years. We need to get a manager who is capable of implementing modern tactics. Not someone who needs his coaches to do it for him, can't read a game, fails to make any impactful subs and struggles to put a cohesive sentence together.
My "thanks" button is disabled osarusan! I agree substantially with your post.
Of course I care, what I meant is that I am impartial as to whether it's Kenny or someone else. Right now I'm not sure who's better that is realistically willing to do the job. i'd be excited to take a punt on someone like Brian Barry Murphy, or even the fabled Anthony Barry but I think we run the risk of a new manager seeing the job as a stepping stone until a better job comes up in English club football. I know people are looking at the Canada manager, but he'd be a flight risk to a club job I reckon, and others like him.
slovakia wasnt a failure by any measure. drawing the game and losing on pens is hardly a disgraceful outcome!
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