Stephen Kenny

**passinginterest** · 22/06/2023, 1:50 PM

To maybe further back up his point, in that list of debutants, there's not a single player under 20 capped who came through the Irish system in any way until Aaron Connolly was capped my Mick Mac. Kenny has capped five in his time and all could be considered to be established squad players already. That's a world away from what had gone before. The previous two players who came through the Irish system and became established squad players were Enda Stevens, at age 27 and Matt Doherty at age 26. So it is a considerable gap in players coming through the system.

**Razors left peg** · 22/06/2023, 2:19 PM

Originally Posted by passinginterest

To maybe further back up his point, in that list of debutants, there's not a single player under 20 capped who came through the Irish system in any way until Aaron Connolly was capped my Mick Mac. Kenny has capped five in his time and all could be considered to be established squad players already. That's a world away from what had gone before. The previous two players who came through the Irish system and became established squad players were Enda Stevens, at age 27 and Matt Doherty at age 26. So it is a considerable gap in players coming through the system.

Just on the Connolly point. I remember the away game vs Georgia there were calls for Connolly to start as he had scored in Premiership by that stage. Mick went conservative, Connolly came on as sub and was instantly impactful.

I know we say that any manager would have picked Ferguson, but Kenny did pick him before he got in at Brighton at a time no one called for it.

I think it's fair to say some lads in the team have been pushed to an important role in team or squad too soon under Kenny but we will see the benefits of it in years to come.

**Diggs246** · 22/06/2023, 2:52 PM

Originally Posted by Razors left peg

Just on the Connolly point. I remember the away game vs Georgia there were calls for Connolly to start as he had scored in Premiership by that stage. Mick went conservative, Connolly came on as sub and was instantly impactful.

I know we say that any manager would have picked Ferguson, but Kenny did pick him before he got in at Brighton at a time no one called for it.

I think it's fair to say some lads in the team have been pushed to an important role in team or squad too soon under Kenny but we will see the benefits of it in years to come.

Im not sure thats right actually. Ferguson was playing and scoring for Brighton from August, he made his irish debut against Norway on 17 November, coming on as a 89th minute sub

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evan_Ferguson

**ontheotherhand** · 22/06/2023, 3:45 PM

Originally Posted by passinginterest

I'd have took the "nine years" to be an exaggeration of the issue we've explored here quite a few times. There's a group of 30 something players and a group who were all still eligible to play under 21 up to this season. I'd say that's where the 9 years is roughly coming from. The gap between the now 23ish and under players he has brought through and the senior squad players the wrong side of 30. That's the gap, no players came through the Irish system. The few players that we have in the middle are players like Cullen, O'Dowda, Robinson, who were entirely developed in the UK system. That would be my take on it.

Yeah that makes sense to me. Pretty much everyone paying attention knew we were going to have to bring through those younger players quickly to fill the gap that was coming. With that we were going to struggle at times. I've defended Kenny along those lines here before but I don't think he's gotten that point across very well by mentioning raw numbers of players brought through or saying nobody was brought through previously. It's a problem for us and as ES points out it was a dramatic shift in terms of our average age. If we had even 2 or 3 more lads at 26-30 playing EPL or Championship level we'd be in good shape. As it is we are already heaping the pressure on to an 18 year old.

That said, Kenny should still do better with what he's now got. There's a decent core team there now with a proper focal point up top and even a creative outlet in Johnston. Not maybe enough creative outlets but a team that should be able to compete with Greece.

Maybe it will click soon but it always feels like we see a little improvement and then it all falls to pieces again.

**SkStu** · 22/06/2023, 3:55 PM

Originally Posted by Diggs246

Im not sure thats right actually. Ferguson was playing and scoring for Brighton from August, he made his irish debut against Norway on 17 November, coming on as a 89th minute sub

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evan_Ferguson

He didnt make a PL appearance until December 2022 (he was on the bench twice to that point and I think did make a sub appearance toward the end of the previous season - so have many other uncapped players). He played once in the EFL Cup in August 2022, scoring against Forest Green. "Before he got in" I take to mean as starting consistently and making an impression.

https://www.transfermarkt.us/evan-fe...spieler/648046

**Diggs246** · 22/06/2023, 4:04 PM

Originally Posted by ontheotherhand

Yeah that makes sense to me. Pretty much everyone paying attention knew we were going to have to bring through those younger players quickly to fill the gap that was coming. With that we were going to struggle at times. I've defended Kenny along those lines here before but I don't think he's gotten that point across very well by mentioning raw numbers of players brought through or saying nobody was brought through previously. It's a problem for us and as ES points out it was a dramatic shift in terms of our average age. If we had even 2 or 3 more lads at 26-30 playing EPL or Championship level we'd be in good shape. As it is we are already heaping the pressure on to an 18 year old.

That said, Kenny should still do better with what he's now got. There's a decent core team there now with a proper focal point up top and even a creative outlet in Johnston. Not maybe enough creative outlets but a team that should be able to compete with Greece.

Maybe it will click soon but it always feels like we see a little improvement and then it all falls to pieces again.

"everyone paying attention knew we were going to have to bring through those younger players quickly to fill the gap"

But did Stephen not play almost the same team as Mick for the first year of his tenure?

**Diggs246** · 22/06/2023, 4:05 PM

Originally Posted by SkStu

He didnt make a PL appearance until December 2022 (he was on the bench twice to that point and I think did make a sub appearance toward the end of the previous season - so have many other uncapped players). He played once in the EFL Cup in August 2022, scoring against Forest Green. "Before he got in" I take to mean as starting consistently and making an impression.

https://www.transfermarkt.us/evan-fe...spieler/648046

Fair enough. I remember thinking he should have played against Malta but its not unreasonable to have held back playing him if that's all he'd done

**Razors left peg** · 22/06/2023, 4:06 PM

Originally Posted by Diggs246

Im not sure thats right actually. Ferguson was playing and scoring for Brighton from August, he made his irish debut against Norway on 17 November, coming on as a 89th minute sub

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evan_Ferguson

His first Premiership goal was against Arsenal on December 31st and it was only after that he started playing regularly for Brighton. I remember when he was called up for the Ireland squad before that I raised an eyebrow myself and thought it was a bit too soon for him.

**Razors left peg** · 22/06/2023, 4:32 PM

I actually just went back into the Norway game thread to see if I had made a comment about Ferguson being called up, I hadnt but I definitely thought it. It was noticeable though how little excitement there was for the call up, very few comments on it at all really.

There was two I just pulled that thought were interesting:

Regarding Will Keane and Scott Hogan pulling out "That's not good... The two guys I was most hoping to see given game time tbh"

"I don't think Ferguson is ready for this level yet, so striker options are indeed short. Probably forces Kenny's hand to play a stronger than intended lineup against the banana skin so blessing in disguise Keane is injured?"

Im not trying to dig anyone out here, but only in November some were looking at the safer options of Will Keane and Scott Hogan! I myself would have thought along the lines of the 2nd comment

**ontheotherhand** · 22/06/2023, 4:57 PM

Originally Posted by Diggs246

"everyone paying attention knew we were going to have to bring through those younger players quickly to fill the gap"

But did Stephen not play almost the same team as Mick for the first year of his tenure?

Yeah he was a bit slower to bring in the newer players than I'd have hoped but they were also even less experienced then. A year in international football isn't a very long period of time and I think he probably felt like the players who did fairly well for Mick were still worth their place. Also, if he'd immediately dropped them all he could hardly call on them if it turned out the younger lads weren't ready or needed more experience around them. I think a lot of managers would have struggled to get the balance right early on.....but equally, a lot of managers would have made it work eventually and Kenny doesn't seem to be getting there.

**Razors left peg** · 22/06/2023, 5:00 PM

Originally Posted by ontheotherhand

Yeah he was a bit slower to bring in the newer players than I'd have hoped but they were also even less experienced then. A year in international football isn't a very long period of time and I think he probably felt like the players who did fairly well for Mick were still worth their place. Also, if he'd immediately dropped them all he could hardly call on them if it turned out the younger lads weren't ready or needed more experience around them. I think a lot of managers would have struggled to get the balance right early on.....but equally, a lot of managers would have made it work eventually and Kenny doesn't seem to be getting there.

A lot of Kennys early games there were also 8-10 pull outs every squad with covid etc so it was probably hard to discard any player

**pineapple stu** · 22/06/2023, 7:23 PM

Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

My reading of this particular room is just as I said it in my opening line above: you really do seem to only praise Bazunu begrudgingly, and I feel too that you take a particularly firm interpretation of his club situation �he�s not good enough�. It really feels like you just don�t like him.

I don�t think I�m alone in noticing this, see for example Crafty�s fireplace gag.

I honestly didn't realise I had made a personal attack, and certainly didn't intend to. Apologies.

Yet there was nothing begrudging about my analysis of his performance in Greece. He had a very solid game. Nothing he could do for either goal, solid handling throughout, one very good save.

I get frustrated by players continually being bigged up - and then when it comes to discussing the point, people run behind stuff like "It feels like you just don't like him" or the fireplace nonsense or "He's only 21 and doing fine", none of which has anything to do with anything. It'd be better, surely, to actually discuss the reasons why I don't think he was "keeping us in the game" while pointing out another goalkeeping performance I did think constituted keeping a team in the game. (And again, honourable mention to otoh for doing exactly that)

**samhaydenjr** · 23/06/2023, 2:14 AM

Originally Posted by elatedscum

O�Shea, Omobamidele and to a lesser extend Collins would be years behind at this stage. John Egan made his competitive debut for Ireland a week before his 27th birthday, while playing premier league for Sheffield United. Genuinely 3 years later than he was ready�

Well, in the summer of 2016, Egan had played a grand total of 1 league game at Championship level. Meanwhile, Martin O'Neill had two established Premier League defenders (O'Shea and Clark) and two established Championship defenders (Duffy and Keogh). So while Egan might have become "ready" to feature by the end of that campaign, it's understandable that he would not have been getting game time during those qualifiers ahead of that quartet

**tetsujin1979** · 24/06/2023, 8:43 AM

Kevin Kilbane thinks Kenny's time is up after these last two games, and his speech to the journalists
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soc...han-gimmickry/
(paywalled, usual workarounds will work around)

**Diggs246** · 24/06/2023, 1:05 PM

Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

Kevin Kilbane thinks Kenny's time is up after these last two games, and his speech to the journalists
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soc...han-gimmickry/
(paywalled, usual workarounds will work around)

He's in 100% agreement with me about our defense and attack units being good. We need to solve the midfield problem and that will mean thinking outside the box

**pineapple stu** · 24/06/2023, 2:37 PM

Originally Posted by Diggs246

We need to solve the midfield problem and that will mean thinking outside the box

Seems to be stating the obvious - inside the box thinking would be about our goalkeepers surely?

**Trequartista20** · 24/06/2023, 4:38 PM

Interesting article. Kenny's time is up; he's not up to the task and I think we all know that.

If even Kenny's basic team structure and formation are at question at this stage - getting on for three years into the role - then I really do despair. I suspect it was Anthony Barry who lobbied for and then had a significant hand in our moving to a back three. SK isn't able to successfully utilise this system without him, and this much seems painfully obvious.

We are obviously inadequate both defensively and in attack, as was made clear in chastening defeat to Greece. We concede chances and goals cheaply and regularly, and are almost wholly reliant on set-pieces and individual moments of brilliance from the likes of Obafemi and Collins for goals.