Stephen Kenny

[Razors left peg]

That's pretty much down to the Kenny cult aspect of it though, isn't it? No more than a Trump type being elected in the US - or a Bernie Sanders type on the other side, the opinions just become too polarised as a result to ever lead to a healthy discourse.

In this case it's a subset of supporters who were so desperate for him to succeed that they're willing to defend pretty much any level of performance, no matter how abject, as long as it allows them to continue to avoid having to admit how badly they got it wrong. We've seen it on this thread again today.

I don't think it will change until the manager does, and hopefully after that things will soften again a bit.

Exhibit A... blame the "other side"

There's plenty on here, myself included, who were fans of Kenny and have changed their minds on him. For me I still think he has the right ideas of how he wants us to play, but he's not capable of implementing it. I'd still like to be wrong now and he goes on to be successful

[Eirambler]

Right, but then you're not part of the subset I was talking about. I was happy when Kenny got the job, I wavered on him through the first campaign, but was ok with him getting another contract based on the last few games of the World Cup qualifiers. But after the Nations League group I've seen enough to know it's just not going to work out, it's done.

[SkStu]

Who is part of the subset Eirambler?

[paul_oshea]

You. It's you stu. Juror no. 3

[paul_oshea]

This thread just keeps going around in circles, its become as boring as the eligibility thread in the past. No one here is gonna change anyone elses opinions at this point, the games are the only thing worth talking about or speculating on and I cant wait for them to fxukin start.

The forum is starting to become a bit like US politics, people just seem to get entrenched in their opinions and refuse to change them. Even some of the threads on our younger players, you'd swear people want them to fail just so they can say they were right all along. Im guilty myself of arguing past the point where I should at times, but its becoming tiresome and doesnt seem to be the Irish football fan community it used to be. Its like rival fans who hate eachother.

Ah there's 135 pages of debate its noisey but chatty. Hasn't been like that in a very long time. Could be worse https://twitter.com/nocontextscouse/...ZpAr9Dpk8bnWBg

But ya looking forward to the football too

[Eirambler]

Who is part of the subset Eirambler?

There's obviously loads of fully committed Kennyites still out there, but in the context of foot.ie I was mainly thinking of mypost as his posts here tend to reflect the position the most committed supporters of Kenny have taken e.g. the constant lowering of the bar as to what is acceptable, the idea that we have no right to win games, qualify for anything, that things were this bad before Kenny came in and nothing that has gone wrong since is ever Kenny's fault etc.

[mypost]

50 pages ago, page 83, is the discusssion after the loss to Ukraine. The performance of the team in the two losses to Armenia and Ukraine was the tipping point. There was criticism of the manager before that, 100 pages ago is the discussion after losing to Luxembourg, but I think that was when he stopped having the majority of the support.

Every manager has to deal with factors outside of their control in games, like the heat will be in Greece, and they can't be ignored, but they're not being put forward as the main reason for the results. Kenny still has his supporters, but after 30 games in charge whatever goodwill he had has almost run out.

Lansdowne has been near sold out at every opportunity during his time in charge. You can't get a ticket for the France game if you try. Season tickets for this group are already sold out. Far from the majority losing their support, there's a high demand to watch the style of play with this man in charge, even though we recognise it's a poor uncompetitive side, at this time.

This thread just keeps going around in circles, its become as boring as the eligibility thread in the past. No one here is gonna change anyone elses opinions at this point, the games are the only thing worth talking about or speculating on.

The forum is starting to become a bit like US politics, people just seem to get entrenched in their opinions and refuse to change them. Even some of the threads on our younger players, you'd swear people want them to fail just so they can say they were right all along. Im guilty myself of arguing past the point where I should at times, but its becoming tiresome and doesnt seem to be the Irish football fan community it used to be. Its like rival fans who hate eachother.

Welcome to the discussion forum.

We're not here to change opinions. You pick a side of the discussion, you post what you believe and you stick to it when the challenge comes. Attacking the post is acceptable. Attacking the poster shouldn't be.

Wanting rid of a manager after his team wins games is ridiculous. Wanting rid of him for only winning a game 3-2 is ludicrous. Wanting rid of him because he made a sub in a friendly his team won, is so stupid as to be hilarious.

With a match in hand, which you ignore. And we won't be six points off qualification (which is what's important) as France and Holland can't both win their opening game.

The fact we play France and Holland is far, far more relevant than what order we play them in. Sure in 2000, we started with Croatia at home (fresh from a World Cup semi final) and the next campaign we started with Holland and Portugal away, again fresh from the Euro semi-finals. We reached the play-offs both times.

Stop making up nonsense excuses.

Stop running away from the facts.

If France win their first 2 games, we're 6 points behind them instantly. Then there's the trip to Greece.

In 1999, we played on the final day of the group. We also played in the last night in the following group, as did everyone else, in the 6 team group. We also had far better players at the time than we have now.

Israel went into the final day of the group for the 2006 qualifiers top of the group. As they had played all their games already, there was nothing they could do about France and Switzerland getting the results on the night to keep them at home the following summer.

We probably won't even get to the last night in contention. Any fanciful talk of preparing for the Euros did not account for having to face 2 of the best 8 teams in the world in the same group. So this campaign is another write off and the sooner people recognise it, the easier it will be to accept when it is confirmed. Instead it's another campaign of focusing on player development instead. But you'll still be tearing into Kenny on this forum though, when the inevitable happens.

[tetsujin1979]

Lansdowne has been near sold out at every opportunity during his time in charge. You can't get a ticket for the France game if you try. Season tickets for this group are already sold out. Far from the majority losing their support, there's a high demand to watch the style of play with this man in charge, even though we recognise it's a poor uncompetitive side, at this time.

The France game is sold out because it's against France, World Cup runners up, third best team in the rankings, with one of the best players in the world playing for them, not because of who the Ireland manager is.
Only one game in the last 12 months has been near sold out
Capacity of Aviva stadium is 51,711 (from https://www.avivastadium.ie/&)
Attendances in the last 12 months:
Belgium: 48,808: https://www.skysports.com/football/r...m/teams/462781
Lithuania: 30,686 - https://www.skysports.com/football/r...a/stats/462782
Ukraine: 40,111 - https://www.the42.ie/live-ireland-v-...85933-Jun2022/
Scotland: 46,927 - https://www.skysports.com/football/r...d/stats/461681
Armenia: 41,718 - https://twitter.com/FAIreland/status...65273718456323
Norway: 41,120 - https://twitter.com/FAIreland/status...58310757093377
Also, there was audible booing at the end of the last two games

We're not here to change opinions.

Isn't the point of debate to do exactly that?

You pick a side of the discussion, you post what you believe and you stick to it when the challenge comes. Attacking the post is acceptable. Attacking the poster shouldn't be.

It isn't, and never has been. Members have been barred for it.

Wanting rid of a manager after his team wins games is ridiculous. Wanting rid of him for only winning a game 3-2 is ludicrous. Wanting rid of him because he made a sub in a friendly his team won, is so stupid as to be hilarious.

It's not wanting rid of him for "only winning a game 3-2", it's for needing a last minute penalty to win a game 3-2 at home, after leading 2-0 with twenty minutes to go against a team that had only scored twice in their last five competitive games(none away from home), and had conceded five goals three days earlier without reply
It's not wanting rid of him because "he made a sub in a friendly his team won", it's because he left a promising player on the bench, wasting an excellent opportunity to give him his first cap to give an established player his 77th

Stop running away from the facts.

If France win their first 2 games, we're 6 points behind them instantly. Then there's the trip to Greece.

The team in second also qualifies for the finals. If France win their first two games, we'll be three points behind the Netherlands, assuming they beat Gibraltar in their second game, leaving us three points behind qualification, with a game in hand.

In 1999, we played on the final day of the group. We also played in the last night in the following group, as did everyone else, in the 6 team group. We also had far better players at the time than we have now.

Israel went into the final day of the group for the 2006 qualifiers top of the group. As they had played all their games already, there was nothing they could do about France and Switzerland getting the results on the night to keep them at home the following summer.

We probably won't even get to the last night in contention. Any fanciful talk of preparing for the Euros did not account for having to face 2 of the best 8 teams in the world in the same group. So this campaign is another write off and the sooner people recognise it, the easier it will be to accept when it is confirmed. Instead it's another campaign of focusing on player development instead. But you'll still be tearing into Kenny on this forum though, when the inevitable happens.

I really don't see what your point is here.

[elatedscum]

Covid was a factor to the same degree it was a factor for every international manager. We just never heard about it anywhere else.

*Caveat i do remember some team we played against missing 4 or so players for various reasons from the squad. But that proves the point more everyone just got on with it and it wasn't an excuse put forward or an excuse by others in the International footballing world - or at least not enough for us to here about it.

In fairness, you’d hardly hear it if the Sweden manager or the Czech manager or the Turkey manager was making a big deal about it

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

In fairness, you’d hardly hear it if the Sweden manager or the Czech manager or the Turkey manager was making a big deal about it

Or the Slovakia manager? They were missing key players but they just got on with it and qualified for Euro 2020. Looking back on it now, it really was a sign of things to come. It was Kenny's third game I think and there was no new manager bounce. And no excuses over playing young players. This was the team:

Randolph; Doherty, Duffy, Egan, Stevens; Hendrick, McCarthy (Browne, 60), Hourihane; Robinson (O’Dowda, 100), McGoldrick (Long, 112), McClean (Brady, 60).

We'll never know for sure but I think we would have qualified for the Euros if McCarthy was left in charge.

[Jd2793]

Or the Slovakia manager? They were missing key players but they just got on with it and qualified for Euro 2020. Looking back on it now, it really was a sign of things to come. It was Kenny's third game I think and there was no new manager bounce. And no excuses over playing young players. This was the team:

Randolph; Doherty, Duffy, Egan, Stevens; Hendrick, McCarthy (Browne, 60), Hourihane; Robinson (O’Dowda, 100), McGoldrick (Long, 112), McClean (Brady, 60).

We'll never know for sure but I think we would have qualified for the Euros if McCarthy was left in charge.

your obsession with the slovakia game is quite bizarre. we were fine in that game , missed 2 insane chances and lost on pens. there wasnt many faults in the performance from players or management tbh.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

your obsession with the slovakia game is quite bizarre. we were fine in that game , missed 2 insane chances and lost on pens. there wasnt many faults in the performance from players or management tbh.

I don't think I've mentioned that game much but it was failure number 1 of the Kenny reign. We don't get to many major tournaments and that was a golden opportunity. We mightn't even get to a play off this time so I don't think it's bizarre to be disappointed not to get to Euro 2020, especially when we probably would have made it with a different manager.

If covid is being used as one of the ever growing list of excuses for Kenny, then I think it's only fair to point out where we were advantaged by it. This was a weakened Slovakia team, who aren't the strongest anyway. Northern Ireland took them to extra time even.

[SkStu]

There's obviously loads of fully committed Kennyites still out there, but in the context of foot.ie I was mainly thinking of mypost as his posts here tend to reflect the position the most committed supporters of Kenny have taken e.g. the constant lowering of the bar as to what is acceptable, the idea that we have no right to win games, qualify for anything, that things were this bad before Kenny came in and nothing that has gone wrong since is ever Kenny's fault etc.

Fair enough. Was hoping you weren’t referring to me! There’s very few, if any, on here who fit that bill.

Your list of offences there is interesting:

I think we were all (except the extremist anti-Kenny subset) guilty of being ok with a temporary lowering of the bar in terms of results. Quite a few people I spoke to or read or heard from saw it as a period of rebuild with two years to “get the 21’s in and get it right” type thing. Anyone who hasn’t raised the bar back up now 3 years in is guilty of being blindly loyal.

On our right to win/qualify. That’s dangerous territory. No team has any right to win. Italy learned that recently. Winning games and qualifying for tournaments is about having a mix of quality, hard graft and luck. We (incl Kenny and players) all have our expectations to win certain games or achieve certain standard of results - beat the minnows, 4 points from peers, challenge the elite type thing - and that’s fair game to ask questions if those expectations aren’t met. I’d have to go back to the early to mid 90’s to recall the last time I expected to qualify for a tournament. Had no expectations for 2002 based on the group whereas others you’d have looked at and maybe fancied your chances to challenge for a playoff spot.

“Things were this bad before”…for me, we’ve been on a steady decline for 20 years with a couple of bright spots during that period that are more anomalies or circumstantial than indicators of anything exceptional or changing. The decline I am referencing is about two things - the general playing level of our players and the number of high quality players. I don’t think that is debatable (though this place surprises me sometimes). The potential of the crop that was coming through the 21’s under Kenny and the levels below were a cause for a lot of optimism. There is/was good news around a bunch of them so you’d have been fairly hopeful that Kenny (or some manager) would start to bring them over and we’d start rebuilding and improving as those players were maturing and playing for EPL teams etc. While not every player has reached potential etc etc no matter what, 2 years later and you’d want to see strong indicators and here we are 3 years later and at best all I can say is I’m not convinced anymore that Kenny is the right man at the top. I do want him to go. Losing to the Luxembourgs, Azerbaijans and Armenias is tough medicine and not what was a reasonable expectation even if we were willing to allow a temporary lowering of the bar.

Anyway… sorry for the novel.

[Kingdom]

The France game is sold out because it's against France, World Cup runners up, third best team in the rankings, with one of the best players in the world playing for them, not because of who the Ireland manager is.
Only one game in the last 12 months has been near sold out
Capacity of Aviva stadium is 51,711 (from https://www.avivastadium.ie/&)
Attendances in the last 12 months:
Belgium: 48,808: https://www.skysports.com/football/r...m/teams/462781
Lithuania: 30,686 - https://www.skysports.com/football/r...a/stats/462782
Ukraine: 40,111 - https://www.the42.ie/live-ireland-v-...85933-Jun2022/
Scotland: 46,927 - https://www.skysports.com/football/r...d/stats/461681
Armenia: 41,718 - https://twitter.com/FAIreland/status...65273718456323
Norway: 41,120 - https://twitter.com/FAIreland/status...58310757093377
Also, there was audible booing at the end of the last two games

Tets, while I don't disagree with the contention that fans are not turning up in consistent numbers because of Kenny, but perhaps a better point is that fans are not staying away because of Kenny either - which has happened under every manager since Mick V1.0 towards the end of their tenures, which probably accelerated their removals along with crowd reactions. While a lot of fans may complain about results there has not been anything like the booing that could be heard towards the end of Trap and MoN.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

Tets, while I don't disagree with the contention that fans are not turning up in consistent numbers because of Kenny, but perhaps a better point is that fans are not staying away because of Kenny either - which has happened under every manager since Mick V1.0 towards the end of their tenures, which probably accelerated their removals along with crowd reactions. While a lot of fans may complain about results there has not been anything like the booing that could be heard towards the end of Trap and MoN.

That is the weird part. Both Trap and O Neill actually achieved something as Ireland managers. Performances, results etc that Kenny's Ireland have come nowhere near. But both these managers were turned on when things went bad. Why is there a double standard for Kenny? Is it because it's always been bad under him? It's not because he doesn't have the players because McCarthy was lambasted for the Georgia draw while supporters were still singing Kenny's name while losing to Luxembourg.

Is it because he was a former LOI manager? Because he supposedly plays football in the 'right' way? Majority of fans are easily swayed by whatever the media says? I think it might be a combination of a few of those things. Whatever it is, I find it incredible. Statistically one of our worst ever managers, repeated failures, driving us down the rankings, making it far more difficult to qualify for major tournaments, yet he still has a fervent and vocal following. I doubt many other managers with his record would have lasted this long. It's baffling!

[Razors left peg]

Most match day going fans have had to put up with turd football for years so when someone comes in an suggests a different way of playing it has been embraced, even if the results arent good. It probably shows that the loud anti Kenny voices on the internet are not reflected in the crowd who actual go to games.

I think there will be a turning in this campaign if the performances dont improve, but right now the majority of fans are still behind Kenny and accepting that he is trying to change years of us being told we arent capable of playing good football. I think the lesson really is, dont tell us what we cant do, tell us what you are trying to do and Irish fans will accept it takes time.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

Most match day going fans have had to put up with turd football for years so when someone comes in an suggests a different way of playing it has been embraced, even if the results arent good. It probably shows that the loud anti Kenny voices on the internet are not reflected in the crowd who actual go to games.

I think there will be a turning in this campaign if the performances dont improve, but right now the majority of fans are still behind Kenny and accepting that he is trying to change years of us being told we arent capable of playing good football. I think the lesson really is, dont tell us what we cant do, tell us what you are trying to do and Irish fans will accept it takes time.

So you're picking this option:

"Because he supposedly plays football in the 'right' way?"

I can see why people backed him at the start because of this. I was one of them! But we've been absolutely muck under Kenny. Only a handful of games have we been in anyway entertaining. I go to games and I found actually competing for qualification to be entertaining, not struggling with minnows. I've been bored and depressed watching Ireland for the last 2 years.

And Kenny has said that we shouldn't expect to compete with Serbia and Portugal so he's telling us things we can't do as well.

I think there's definitely some other elements at play. Could be the ex LOI thing, I think the media backing him has a huge part to play and also some supporters don't like to admit that they got it wrong and maybe previous managers had a point.

[Razors left peg]

So you're picking this option:

"Because he supposedly plays football in the 'right' way?"

I can see why people backed him at the start because of this. I was one of them! But we've been absolutely muck under Kenny. Only a handful of games have we been in anyway entertaining. I go to games and I found actually competing for qualification to be entertaining, not struggling with minnows. I've been bored and depressed watching Ireland for the last 2 years.

And Kenny has said that we shouldn't expect to compete with Serbia and Portugal so he's telling us things we can't do as well.

I think there's definitely some other elements at play. Could be the ex LOI thing, I think the media backing him has a huge part to play and also some supporters don't like to admit that they got it wrong and maybe previous managers had a point.

Do you go to games? Brian Kerr was ex LOI and I can tell you right now that when we were coming out of the ground after the Switzerland game the was no doubt that the fans were not happy with Kerr and wanted him gone in much quicker a time than what Kenny has gotten.

I havent been at a game in a few years because I no longer live in Ireland, but all my mates I used to travel with still go and for the most part they havent turned on him yet. Only 2 of those lads are LOI fans, the rest are fairly causal about LOI and so couldnt care less about that link. But its pretty obvious that when you watch the games the crowd are still behind Kenny. Now, as I said I do think that could change this campaign if results dont improve.

Blaming the media for why the majority of fans dont agree with you is ridiculous. While you may be right in the long run that Kenny wasnt the right guy, and as Ive said Ive come around to that myself, I firmly believe that the majority of match going fans are still going because they seen a rebuild was badly needed and allowed time for that to happen.

I dont know the stats off the top of my head, Tets maybe you can help, but theres something about us now scoring a lot more goals under Kenny than in previous years, maybe it was in Nations League or something?

I promised myself I wouldnt keep posting in this thread until games are played, but anyway.... one last point. Even if the sole reason that match day fans are still behind Kenny was that hes ex LOI and they are ALL LOI fans, Id be fcxking delighted. That would mean that the LOI is becoming far more influential in Irish football and for the growth of the game in Ireland we need every football fan to be a LOI fan.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

Do you go to games? Brian Kerr was ex LOI and I can tell you right now that when we were coming out of the ground after the Switzerland game the was no doubt that the fans were not happy with Kerr and wanted him gone in much quicker a time than what Kenny has gotten.

I havent been at a game in a few years because I no longer live in Ireland, but all my mates I used to travel with still go and for the most part they havent turned on him yet. Only 2 of those lads are LOI fans, the rest are fairly causal about LOI and so couldnt care less about that link. But its pretty obvious that when you watch the games the crowd are still behind Kenny. Now, as I said I do think that could change this campaign if results dont improve.

Blaming the media for why the majority of fans dont agree with you is ridiculous. While you may be right in the long run that Kenny wasnt the right guy, and as Ive said Ive come around to that myself, I firmly believe that the majority of match going fans are still going because they seen a rebuild was badly needed and allowed time for that to happen.

I dont know the stats off the top of my head, Tets maybe you can help, but theres something about us now scoring a lot more goals under Kenny than in previous years, maybe it was in Nations League or something?

I promised myself I wouldnt keep posting in this thread until games are played, but anyway.... one last point. Even if the sole reason that match day fans are still behind Kenny was that hes ex LOI and they are ALL LOI fans, Id be fcxking delighted. That would mean that the LOI is becoming far more influential in Irish football and for the growth of the game in Ireland we need every football fan to be a LOI fan.

Yes, I go to games. I don't follow other teams apart from Ireland. As I said, being ex LOI is the reason for some, the media has a massive influence so maybe subconsciously that affects others. I think you're agreeing with me here.

Obviously, he's not being backed because of actual results and performances. Objectively, he's the worst manager we've had in over 40 years. You mentioned Kerr, he had a 55% win record. The reason why the tide turned on him was because he failed to qualify for one major tournament really as he took over after two defeats in the first one. Kenny has failed twice to qualify for major tournaments and had two very poor nations league campaigns.

When you consider those results have left us in a very difficult position to qualify for his third major tournament qualifying attempt and the fact that he's needed coaches to set up the team for him, it really is crazy that he's still there. It'd be like Staunton getting a new contract after the Cyprus, San Marino group.

[Razors left peg]

So ask yourself this. Why did fans want Kerr to leave and not Kenny?

The team Kerr had was infinitely superior to what Kenny has. Do you not think that the reason for the difference on why fans were happy to give Kenny more time compared to Kerr is because most are aware of the massive rebuild job that was needed. I know you dont agree with the rebuilding narrative, but that doesnt make you right. The vast majority of match going fans do think that way and we have seen a virtual full u21 team come into the seniors in last couple years. I think your idea that its a media driven popularity for Kenny is utter boll!x and fans who go to games are well capable of making up their own mind.

Just to pick up on one thing you said there about Kenny having 2 poor Nations League campaigns.... I think Im right in saying the last one was our best ever under any manager? It shows how crap we have actually been, but we actually scored goals and performed pretty well in some games which is more than we ever did before. I dont know if thats a sign of things improving over all or not, and well find out pretty soon if any progress has been made.

I do suspect that this qualifying has come 2 years too soon for the bunch of players we have coming through and in the squad now so I think that it'll be a different manager in charge when the next world cup qualifying comes around. I do know that the fans will be out in force in a couple of weeks time and if we happen to get a result against France Kenny name will be sang loudly.