Stephen Kenny

[SkStu]

Give it a lash, Jack
Give it a lash, Jack
Never ever ever say nooo

[paul_oshea]

Italy have learnt a thing or two from Jack

[TonyD]

If he was going to be sacked, he would have been long gone already. We're stuck with him until this time next year when he'll be replaced by another pub league manager, because that's all the FAI can afford.

Pub league. Charming. And yet you’ll call yourself an Irish football fan I suppose.

[Razors left peg]

Probably not the right thread for this but when you see Denmark getting so far in the Euros and always being fairly competitive you have to ask what the difference from them to us is, since we are a comparable size country.

A good professional league has to be main thing. Hopefully with players being forced to stay longer in Ireland due to Brexit laws it'll force investment in the game here. Comments like "pub league" are way off the mark based on the progress that has been made but the league needs massive leaps forward before we could compare ourselves on a regular basis to Denmark.

[John83]

Comments like "pub league" are way off the mark based on the progress that has been made but the league needs massive leaps forward before we could compare ourselves on a regular basis to Denmark.

The following countries have lower UEFA coefficients associated with their leagues: Gibraltar, Montenegro, Wales, Iceland, Estonia, Andorra, San Marino. That list is exhaustive.

[elatedscum]

Probably not the right thread for this but when you see Denmark getting so far in the Euros and always being fairly competitive you have to ask what the difference from them to us is, since we are a comparable size country.

A good professional league has to be main thing. Hopefully with players being forced to stay longer in Ireland due to Brexit laws it'll force investment in the game here. Comments like "pub league" are way off the mark based on the progress that has been made but the league needs massive leaps forward before we could compare ourselves on a regular basis to Denmark.

I remember hearing someone from Danish football talk on Irish radio about a decade ago and he said their basic approach was:

1) build the academies such that the majority of players can stay and develop

2) the truly elite players, the ones who could be world superstars, will need to leave to reach their potential. Example given was Christian Eriksen going to Ajax's academy at 16. But for the average player, they'll be better staying at home for another 5 years.

Looking at their current squad:

(Kasper S is an outlier due to his father and the fact he was never really based in Denmark)

Eriksen (Ajax), Christiansen (Chelsea), Hjoeberg (Bayern) - all went to top european academies

Kjaer, Delaney, Damsgaard, Poulsen, Braithwaite - all moved having played first team football in Denmark.

-----------------

Then again, I think if you were to do the same thing with the players who might have at some point been considered our better players:

Coleman, Doherty, Long, McClean - stayed in ireland

Randolph, Duffy, Egan, Brady, Hendrick - moved across as kids... (Didn't feel great picking that list as there's plenty on it, who haven't performed since Euro 2016.) Obviously Brady is the only one you could argue went to an elite academy. But it's not like Chelsea, United, City, Liverpool and Arsenal didn't have their fair share of young Irish players, for every Robbie Brady, there's 10 Conor Cliffords or Glen McAuleys.

Interestingly, it feels like in recent years that those wells have to some degree dried up. Irish players seem more likely to sign for a Derby or Stoke or Norwich or Brighton than a Top 6 side. Most of the young Irish lads representing those clubs seem to be born in England...

McGuinness at Arsenal, Bowden at Spurs, McCann at United, Hodge at City, Nunn at Chelsea. (EDIT McGuinness left a few weeks ago)

Bazunu at City, Parrott at Spurs and McEneff at Arsenal are the only i can think of who were born on the island.

Whereas a decade ago, there were generally about 1-3 irish lads on each academy year of each age group. Not sure anyone really knows the best route for a young player, there's so much luck and chance involved. Take Trent Alexander-Arnold, the only reason that he got the chance to play at 18 and 19 was because of a longterm injury to Clyne. He got regular game time at a big club that were essentially still rebuilding. If a young player of his quality came through Liverpool's academy today, they wouldn't get the opportunity he had - and yet equally without opportunity he had, he wouldn't be the player he is today. Like if he broke into Wigan or Blackburn's side at that age, there's no way he would have made the developments he did.

I wonder if you played Robbie Keane's career out in say 4 different scenarios. 1) he goes to Wolves at 16 2) he goes to Liverpool at 16, who chased him heavily as a teenager 3) He moves from Crumlin to Rovers and plays at Rovers till 20 4) He signs for Inter Milan at 16... Which Robbie is the worst one and which is the best?

[Colbert Report]

Pub league. Charming. And yet you’ll call yourself an Irish football fan I suppose.

Not a fan of appointing a guy who had no notable accomplishments under his belt and who is clearly well out of his depth being in charge of the national team. I mean Steve Staunton had a better squad at his disposal and yeah, he lost to Cyprus, but he didn't lose to Luxembourg. No excuses for that. If Kenny wasn't sacked for that result, it tells me that we can't afford to sack him and we're stuck with him until the end of his contract.

[Charlie Darwin]

I would contend that one of (not the only) reason Staunton didn't lose to Luxembourg was because he never played them. But I might be way off-base.

[seanfhear]

Probably not the right thread for this but when you see Denmark getting so far in the Euros and always being fairly competitive you have to ask what the difference from them to us is, since we are a comparable size country.

A good professional league has to be main thing. Hopefully with players being forced to stay longer in Ireland due to Brexit laws it'll force investment in the game here. Comments like "pub league" are way off the mark based on the progress that has been made but the league needs massive leaps forward before we could compare ourselves on a regular basis to Denmark.

Is your average Dane a better physical specimen than your average Irish Person. Perhaps we need a breeding programme.

[Eirambler]

Calling it a pub league isn't at all helpful really. But at the same time the league champions were by all accounts comfortably dealt with last night by a team from a mid rank European league who are still in pre-season. So we have to be realistic about the standard of the league. If it was an English division it would be the National League, and we don't tend to give much scope to the National League when it comes to recruiting players or a manager, so you'd question why we should be looking too hard in the League of Ireland for senior team players or a manager.

My own personal view is that we now need to develop high class academies in Ireland for players aged up to 18 due to the restrictions in going to the UK that are now in place. Something similar to the four professional rugby academies that exist in the country.

Whether these should be in any way linked to the League of Ireland is open to question though. In one sense maybe yes, because it's maybe the only available route towards first team senior football before age 18 for these players. On the other hand I would have concerns whether LoI clubs would have the resources and expertise to get the best out of these players in the academies. Maybe keeping them separate but having some kind of link-up/loan system in place with LoI clubs to allow young players to gain first team experience might be the way to go. The rugby academies possibly do something similar with clubs in the AIL I think.

I agree that we shouldn't be hiring a manager for our senior team unless he has a CV that includes at least some success beyond the League of Ireland. If there one lesson that will be learned from the current appointment, that will likely be it.

[pineapple stu]

I think if the LoI clubs aren't the ones to run the academies, then - assuming first-team senior football is an essential requirement of an academy - you'd have to wonder who should run them?

The only other solution is to set up a full and proper pyramid so, for example, St Kevin's Boys can have a senior team. And while a pyramid is needed exactly to encourage clubs to improve themselves, that's certainly a slower way of doing things than linking academies with LoI clubs.

It's worth noting on Kenny that he did have a CV that included some success beyond the LoI, in his fairly successful stint as 21s manager. That was a natural progression (Dundalk - 21s - senior) and other countries have promoted their 21s manager to the senior position with some success. Though of course, we didn't sack our senior manager as soon as we'd appointed him, which was remarkably daft.

(I do agree with your post in general btw)

I remember hearing someone from Danish football talk on Irish radio about a decade ago and he said their basic approach was:

1) build the academies such that the majority of players can stay and develop

2) the truly elite players, the ones who could be world superstars, will need to leave to reach their potential. Example given was Christian Eriksen going to Ajax's academy at 16. But for the average player, they'll be better staying at home for another 5 years.

Exactly what I've been saying on here for a while now

[paul_oshea]

The following countries have lower UEFA coefficients associated with their leagues: Gibraltar, Montenegro, Wales, Iceland, Estonia, Andorra, San Marino. That list is exhaustive.

Wales, Montenegro and Iceland would probably beat Ireland of the last year or so. Not sure what you are suggesting?

[pineapple stu]

Not sure what that has to do with the suggestion that the LoI is a very weak league?

Would Wales appoint the TNS manager to the national side?

[paul_oshea]

Tns manager didn't have a successful euro run and a decent go at the Welsh u21s.

[pineapple stu]

Does one European run necessarily make an international manager?

The U21s wasn't in the point John83 was replying to. John was replying to a post on "the progress that has been made" by the league, and countered this by noting the LoI is currently ranked 48th, a near-record low.

[paul_oshea]

It was in relation to a manger getting the Irish job that I picked up on, so I was thinking he suggested it for that reason, but I see your point. I was merely stating that the league coefficients doesn't necessarily reflect the standing of a team or its manager.

[pineapple stu]

It does if the manager comes from the league.

I wasn't particularly against Kenny being appointed manager - he's done an excellent job domestically (though not so much at Dunfermline) and the step up to the 21s was the right way to bring him into the setup.

But would you have, say, Pat Hoban in the squad? He's done very well domestically, but flopped abroad and came back home, where he continued doing well. All logic would say he's not good enough for the senior squad. Could the same argument not be applied to Kenny?

I agree a comment like "pub league" is unhelpful, but it's also wrong to say there's been a lot of progress made in the league when the indications are we've gone backwards in the past decade.

[seanfhear]

It does if the manager comes from the league.

I wasn't particularly against Kenny being appointed manager - he's done an excellent job domestically (though not so much at Dunfermline) and the step up to the 21s was the right way to bring him into the setup.

But would you have, say, Pat Hoban in the squad? He's done very well domestically, but flopped abroad and came back home, where he continued doing well. All logic would say he's not good enough for the senior squad. Could the same argument not be applied to Kenny?

I agree a comment like "pub league" is unhelpful, but it's also wrong to say there's been a lot of progress made in the league when the indications are we've gone backwards in the past decade.

I suppose some of it is that the other leagues are going ahead and keeping a head of us. I would say the LOI has improved but the other leagues have also improved. I doubt many leagues are standing still or going backwards.

[paul_oshea]

It does if the manager comes from the league.

I wasn't particularly against Kenny being appointed manager - he's done an excellent job domestically (though not so much at Dunfermline) and the step up to the 21s was the right way to bring him into the setup.

But would you have, say, Pat Hoban in the squad? He's done very well domestically, but flopped abroad and came back home, where he continued doing well. All logic would say he's not good enough for the senior squad. Could the same argument not be applied to Kenny?

I agree a comment like "pub league" is unhelpful, but it's also wrong to say there's been a lot of progress made in the league when the indications are we've gone backwards in the past decade.

I am not in a position to comment on the league in the sense of what's happening off field, but it appears like things are much better run than before, from the outside looking in. In terms of progress yes there was too in relation to European runs and teams picking up decent results along the way, and having watched 20 years or so of LOI teams in Europe the performances have vastly improved, so too have the opposition unfortunately. The last couple of years I am not sure that can be said, and Shamrock Rovers were very poor yesterday and offered absolutely nothing going forward and not much in defence either - so that is a worry if thats the best team of the last few years.

I dont think you can compare footballers and managers in the same sense, Vladimir Weiss is back managing Slovan Bratislava, I would argue he's had a decent career as a manager given where he started off. Players physical, technical and natural ability does compare with the mental capabilities of a manager. We can all see the same things(mostly) but only a few of us can act them out too. Theres been many managers to come through like warburton from non-footballing backgrounds and do very well, so why couldnt a manager from a poor league also do well? I am aware experience needs to be gained but the ability is either there or not.

[SkStu]

i dont think the quality of the league is as relevant a marker to the ability of the manager as it would be to the ability of the players - as it relates to managing or playing international mens football. Not from a technical management and coaching perspective anyway. The greatest challenge is one of credibility as opposed to ability. Can you convince 22 high calibre, well paid, pampered players that your way (to train, play, think) is the right way? Stephen Kenny has the quals and he has decades of experience in management. He has shown that he can get a group of 11 players to play above their individual and collective abilities. He showed it with Longford (got them to Europe), He showed it with Bohs, he showed it with Derry, he showed it with Dundalk and he showed it with the U21 team (his spell with Rovers was his biggest bust, he even took Dunfermline to Europe)... all in all, if you were looking for someone to be given a chance, Kenny was the guy to give it to.


The context of his role is just as important as anything else in all of this. Leaving aside the very relevant factor of Ireland/FAI being exactly where we should be due to decades of neglecting our duties to shape and control our own fortunes, Kenny inherited a team that was on the cusp of needing to be almost completely rebuilt - or perhaps more accurately; we all recognized would go be entering a period of significant transition. A lot of key players had retired or were on the verge of retiring, morale across the playing pool was low after the MON/Roy/Mick flare-ups, the number of top class players wasnt there or havent performed for club or country in years and there was a general sense that the U21's (that he coached) were a promising but unproven set of players that could make the step up. He also assumed the role during the pandemic - not the only manager to manage through covid but not ideal for a new manager, especially when you consider the context above and the need for him to "prove" himself. He only made 3 new introductions in his first squad announcement. But then circumstances took over and any plans he had going in to transition slowly were ripped to shreds. Hes been trying to sellotape the shreds back together as best he could since then. Luxembourg was a low, i get it. But i still think he deserves more time to show us whether he can do what he has done with most of the clubs he has managed - building a team that achieves more than it should.

He appears to be well liked and supported by the players. I hope to god a return to normality/stability, along with the continued maturity and development of the younger players, will allows us to see what he is truly made of and whether he can convince the squad that his way is the right way - and get the results to go along with it.

With all respect, snipes about "pub league manager", players not singing anthems and his public speaking are pathetic. By all means, judge him fairly on results (or when he gets out-managed) but don't do so without considering the context that he is operating within. Anyway, this turned more into a stream of consciousness than i had originally intended!!