Stephen Kenny

[pineapple stu]

It does surprise me that the substitution to bring on Hendrick against Malta was the turning point for so many people.

For me anyway, I don't think it's Hendrick (or Hourihane) coming on in certain games as much as the abject performances throughout those games.

Like, that Malta performance was terrible long before Hendrick came on. You could argue Hourihane was more at fault in the Armenia game (I think it was his aimless cross that led to Armenia winning possession and moving down the pitch for their first goal), but others were at fault too, and then the team collectively shat the bed for the last 20 minutes before getting that penalty.

I think the bigger picture is more concerning there tbh.

[SkStu]

On a separate note its funny how one little moment for some can sway them from one way to the other. How can all the other things in your mind be accepted but then one thing is the last straw. I'd be very worried for those people in daily life. It must be a tough struggle. It'd remind you of the lads up North.

But the "petty" minority have been proven right. You, meanwhile, hop on to Jd2793's lifeboat. Some petty poster might reference rats fleeing a sinking ship.

What on earth are you both on about? Do you really want me to reiterate what I have said on here multiple times since at least the Luxembourg defeat which is when the tide started to turn - for me - from optimism and belief in Kenny to something else? I wont bore everyone on here with it again - god knows ive done that enough - but my post history is open record if you doubt what I am saying. If that is how you see the conversations we have had over the last couple of years then you would both really want to give your heads a shake. It is stupid to even have to clarify that, for anyone, it was not an overnight thing.

Here's what i know. There were some - and you are one of them Paul - who had the knives out after the Slovakia draw and subsequent loss on penalties. That was 3 games into his tenure. It was after that game that knocked us out of contention for the Euros that you fled the ship and, in a whatsapp group, lamented incessantly that the fans wouldnt be going away together. You couldnt handle the fact, when it was pointed out to you (again), that it was a team in transition and at least 2 years away from rebuilding to a point where new, high-potential players were blooded and we might have a decent shout at challenging again. You couldnt handle it. You wanted the **** ups, you didnt want the rebuild.

Both of you - take the digs you like at me and I'll defend my position until the cows come home but I have never once heard from Paul or anyone else that was in that same boat as to the justification for wanting him gone after 3 games. Thats no less egregious than wanting to give the man a couple of years to try and get it right.

[tetsujin1979]

People are as entitled to change their opinions as they are to have opinions in the first place. None of us can say what will happen in the future, so any opinion expressed should have the information available at the time taken into account when discussing its validity.
And nobody is allowed to attack a poster, either directly or indirectly.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

People don't like to admit that they've been duped. It's as simple as that. People bought into the Kenny hype. We all really wanted to believe in it. We can play good football and still compete. Dundalk and the u21's gave us hope but it soon became clear that he was out of his depth. That was for some of us but others stayed on the train longer. They've fallen hook, line and sinker for the building for 2024 fairytale. For believing Kenny has been handed an awful hand and has had to deal with awful luck. That we need to lower our expectations and not expect to compete for qualification. And so on. I think it's closer to the majority that now see him as a spoofer. He's done well to last for 30 games. Stan lasted for 17 even though he proved to be the wrong man after 5 games. It would be great if Kenny shocked us and turned this around but after the damage he's done, I'd be glad to see the back of him as soon as possible.

[tetsujin1979]

People don't like to admit that they've been duped. It's as simple as that. People bought into the Kenny hype. We all really wanted to believe in it. We can play good football and still compete. Dundalk and the u21's gave us hope but it soon became clear that he was out of his depth. That was for some of us but others stayed on the train longer. They've fallen hook, line and sinker for the building for 2024 fairytale. For believing Kenny has been handed an awful hand and has had to deal with awful luck. That we need to lower our expectations and not expect to compete for qualification. And so on. I think it's closer to the majority that now see him as a spoofer. He's done well to last for 30 games. Stan lasted for 17 even though he proved to be the wrong man after 5 games. It would be great if Kenny shocked us and turned this around but after the damage he's done, I'd be glad to see the back of him as soon as possible.

Did you even read my post?

People are as entitled to change their opinions as they are to have opinions in the first place. None of us can say what will happen in the future, so any opinion expressed should have the information available at the time taken into account when discussing it validity.
And nobody is allowed to attack a poster, either directly or indirectly.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

Did you even read my post?

No, I was typing my post when you posted but I don't see how I attacked anyone in my post? Except maybe Stephen Kenny.

[Snapshot]

People don't like to admit that they've been duped. It's as simple as that. People bought into the Kenny hype. We all really wanted to believe in it. We can play good football and still compete. Dundalk and the u21's gave us hope but it soon became clear that he was out of his depth. That was for some of us but others stayed on the train longer. They've fallen hook, line and sinker for the building for 2024 fairytale. For believing Kenny has been handed an awful hand and has had to deal with awful luck. That we need to lower our expectations and not expect to compete for qualification. And so on. I think it's closer to the majority that now see him as a spoofer. He's done well to last for 30 games. Stan lasted for 17 even though he proved to be the wrong man after 5 games. It would be great if Kenny shocked us and turned this around but after the damage he's done, I'd be glad to see the back of him as soon as possible.

Did you even read my post?

For clarity, where's the offence in that post? Who's been attacked?

[John83]

Let's give Boomers the benefit of the doubt here and assume that post was not attacking anyone; that conversation isn't important or enjoyable. Then let's just get back to discussing Kenny, with tets call for civility in mind.

[mypost]

It does surprise me that the substitution to bring on Hendrick against Malta was the turning point for so many people. I mean, yes, it was a desperately poor substitution in the circumstances, but in the context of all the terrible decisions Kenny has made over the last few years it seems an odd one to turn on.

Personally, in terms of his recent errors, I would have said subbing on Hourihane v Armenia would have been the one that might have finally tipped people over.

Nit picking. We put far too much emphasis on performances in friendlies. No other nation on the planet does.

Now it seems that we have gone a step further towards the abyss by putting too much emphasis on subs made during friendlies. No other nation does that either. So what? It's a kickabout in Malta in November, it's not the French in Dublin at the end of the month.

This campaign is a write off, before a ball is kicked, regardless of who is in charge. Aside from the on field issues, the scheduling of fixtures is appalling from our pov. France to start, Greece away in June, the last 2 games away, we're the last team to start the group and the first to finish it. So we're fighting for third which might nick a playoff place as Mick did the last time. Nothing to write home about, but as good as it gets.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

Nit picking. We put far too much emphasis on performances in friendlies. No other nation on the planet does.

Now it seems that we have gone a step further towards the abyss by putting too much emphasis on subs made during friendlies. No other nation does that either. So what? It's a kickabout in Malta in November, it's not the French in Dublin at the end of the month.

This campaign is a write off, before a ball is kicked, regardless of who is in charge. Aside from the on field issues, the scheduling of fixtures is appalling from our pov. France to start, Greece away in June, the last 2 games away, we're the last team to start the group and the first to finish it. So we're fighting for third which might nick a playoff place as Mick did the last time. Nothing to write home about, but as good as it gets.

1. Kenny is guilty of putting too much emphasis on friendlies, that's the point. He treats them as qualification matches to try to talk up his record.

2. Scheduling is another very poor excuse and we got a tough draw due to Kenny's failure even to reach his own targets.

3. It doesn't matter if we finish 3rd, 4th or 5th, we still have to depend on other groups to make a playoff. Again, this is down to the awful results under Kenny.

[Diggs246]

What gets on my T*TS a bit is his supporters not being able to just say I got it wrong or I made a mistake. He a poor international manager

They list these ridiculous and often hysterical reasons why it hasn't worked

My personal favorite is covid. Followed by the Greek weather

[pineapple stu]

They list these ridiculous and often hysterical reasons why it hasn't worked

My personal favorite is covid. Followed by the Greek weather

But but - we're the last team to start the group and the first to finish it. And we've France at home first!

How can we possibly qualify then?!

[tetsujin1979]

There's a good 50 pages of people saying he got it wrong and is a poor international manager.

[Stuttgart88]

What on earth are you both on about? Do you really want me to reiterate what I have said on here multiple times since at least the Luxembourg defeat which is when the tide started to turn - for me - from optimism and belief in Kenny to something else? I wont bore everyone on here with it again - god knows ive done that enough - but my post history is open record if you doubt what I am saying. If that is how you see the conversations we have had over the last couple of years then you would both really want to give your heads a shake. It is stupid to even have to clarify that, for anyone, it was not an overnight thing.

Here's what i know. There were some - and you are one of them Paul - who had the knives out after the Slovakia draw and subsequent loss on penalties. That was 3 games into his tenure. It was after that game that knocked us out of contention for the Euros that you fled the ship and, in a whatsapp group, lamented incessantly that the fans wouldnt be going away together. You couldnt handle the fact, when it was pointed out to you (again), that it was a team in transition and at least 2 years away from rebuilding to a point where new, high-potential players were blooded and we might have a decent shout at challenging again. You couldnt handle it. You wanted the **** ups, you didnt want the rebuild.

Both of you - take the digs you like at me and I'll defend my position until the cows come home but I have never once heard from Paul or anyone else that was in that same boat as to the justification for wanting him gone after 3 games. Thats no less egregious than wanting to give the man a couple of years to try and get it right.

Well said, pretty much my view too and you're absolutely right to defend your position.

[Snapshot]

There's a good 50 pages of people saying he got it wrong and is a poor international manager.

How did you arrive at that figure?

[Diggs246]

There's a good 50 pages of people saying he got it wrong and is a poor international manager.

I don't think Kenny's supporters are being that direct tbh
I think they are putting in caveats
Like Stephen is very lucky or..... away fans turned up is another classic.

[SkStu]

What gets on my T*TS a bit is his supporters not being able to just say I got it wrong or I made a mistake. He a poor international manager

They list these ridiculous and often hysterical reasons why it hasn't worked

My personal favorite is covid. Followed by the Greek weather

Why does it bother you so much though? What does it mean to be wrong here in your eyes? I don't get the desire for a right or wrong in this. I'm assuming for someone to be right they must have identified Kenny as unsuitable and predicted disaster from the time of his announcement and for someone to be wrong they must still want the man to be in the job? Is that the working definition here?

I took a look back through your posts on the thread and you had mixed feelings along the way, went hard against him after Luxembourg, softened after Portugal away and then went hard again at some point. It seemed the Damien Duff thing really bothered you. I'm not saying this to show you up but just to point out that there's no real wrong or right - 99% of the time, in football, its a see-saw and sooner or later something tips you fully one way. When that happens, for an individual, is based on their own tolerances, how they see the challenge v. the performance or some other markers for success/failure.

You laugh at Covid as an excuse and it is something i have mentioned here before as a mitigating factor in the overall picture. I just give an allowance for the difficulty that it created for a new manager handed a new mandate in those circumstances, where you have a vision of how you want to execute - who you want to have in the squad (new players) and how you want that team to play (new approach). That much "new" during a time of massive disruption where you had a notably different squad make-up from one game to the next just made things that little bit harder for him in that circumstance than maybe it would have for another manager who wasn't tasked with a transition and so much new. Not having the usual Ireland home atmosphere to push him and the team on was another side effect that made things weird. None of that is an excuse - its just a consideration for why that first year was so difficult in terms of results and performances. Once it passed, the consideration passed. But if you look back at the whole, you cant not consider it - if you agree with the principle. And if you don't thats fine but I think it is defensible.

I just repost this from before (June 2022). What part of this is wrong?

It wasn't a misjudgment. It is not a misjudgment to believe in a vision and give time and grace for the person to get it right. I think I am changing course on Kenny at the right time. At a fair time. To have been calling for his head from early on, as you were, was over the top unreasonable.

For what its worth, supporting Kenny has been a bit of a rollercoaster. As someone who was around Dalymount Park when he was managing the team, I was well aware of some of the flaws of the man as a manager, including how personally he took success and defeat and emotional he could get. He seemed to have come a long way in the years since and he did well with the U21's. That said, when he was named as the "next man up" i was really skeptical. I remember saying it to others on here at the time and i wasnt the only one in that group. Then he started talking about what he saw as the future of the Irish playing style, which included his perspective on the past Irish style and some of our managers, and i started buying in. I was worried that he stepped into the job when he did - and couldn't understand why that decision was made at that time. I was all in though. We all (I think) want all our managers to do well and to take us forward. I was disappointed when i saw his first squad as there were only a handful of new names in there, youngsters. But, you know, its a transition, it will take time, you cant replace a full squad etc. There was the disappointment of Slovakia on penalties. There was the stupidity of a game away to England. There was the unrest and daggers out in the backroom. There was the chaos of squad instability due to covid (which i still believe would be more difficult for any new manager, especially one trying to build a new style and squad). But there were some positive signs too - we were playing a new way, a better way and sometimes it clicked. There was a good dash of youth and inexperience in there but there were signs. But that first chapter was really hard. By the time you get to Luxembourg home, i was ready for him to go. There are posts on here to back that up. At the very least he had to start turning it around. And he did. To the point where i started to really believe that he could take us forward. So i dug my heels in on here during that time especially. More goals, more points, more wins. Still some shakiness (as Pineapple often points out related to Serbia home, for example) but generally we were going in the right direction. I was definitely optimistic, but i think there was fair reason to be. The harshness of the criticism seemed unfair during that time. The skepticism i could understand but the criticism after positive results and wins was hard to comprehend. And then we had this week. The rollercoaster ride was on a big dip again!

[seanfhear]

The whole Kenny thing is Boring / Indifferent at this stage = = He had better start this campaign well or else he has to go = = It's a results business.

[tetsujin1979]

How did you arrive at that figure?

50 pages ago, page 83, is the discusssion after the loss to Ukraine. The performance of the team in the two losses to Armenia and Ukraine was the tipping point. There was criticism of the manager before that, 100 pages ago is the discussion after losing to Luxembourg, but I think that was when he stopped having the majority of the support.

I don't think Kenny's supporters are being that direct tbh
I think they are putting in caveats
Like Stephen is very lucky or..... away fans turned up is another classic.

Every manager has to deal with factors outside of their control in games, like the heat will be in Greece, and they can't be ignored, but they're not being put forward as the main reason for the results. Kenny still has his supporters, but after 30 games in charge whatever goodwill he had has almost run out.

[paul_oshea]

How did you arrive at that figure?

I'm not saying he's right and I'm not saying he's wrong but these are the kind of comments that Tets takes needless issue and starts implementing bans. All a bit silly powertrip egotistical hopefully he learns from it after his own fairly flippant remark.

Quantifying 50 pages is not required but the point is probably correct a lot of comments, perhaps from a smaller minority, have expressed concern and been saying Kenny got it wrong.