Stephen Kenny

[ontheotherhand]

I would say the population comparison is significant. How can Croatia (and indeed Uruguay) with similar population do infinitely better than us. It's all down to coaching. And while ours may have improved a bit, we're still not remotely close to these standards

https://keepitonthedeck.com/blog/201...es-footballers

By coaching you mean developmental coaching through the age groups? Not coaching at the senior level right? I'd agree that we don't get the most out of our supply chain. Too many broken systems and competing parties unwilling to put players first to get the most out of a relatively small pool to begin with. There doesn't seem to be an easy fix there.

Even Kenny might get to a WC with Luka Modric in midfield. Barry would probably win it.

[Jd2793]

I think people are overestimating the standard of Croatia's domestic structures to be honest. Generally what their national team has achieved is done despite their domestic setup, not because of it.

really? croatian clubs have produced good players for years tbh. lots of exposure in uefa youth leagues over the years aswell. vast majority of the current senior squad all had at least one full season of croatian football under their belts before going to other euro clubs.

[Snapshot]

read this article today and thought of my post above. While i wont say "i'm right" as it is clearly a very nuanced topic, the article does support that possession without intent is meaningless in terms of team effectiveness and that good players make a big difference. Anyway, more so thought it might be a good read for those interested...

https://theathletic.com/2352067/2021...c-in-football/

Why pay? Just stating the bleedin' obvious.

[SkStu]

Pay?? That’s weird. I didn’t have to pay on desktop but just clicked thru on mobile and see it does require payment. Sorry about that.

It was a good read, it said a good bit more than that, like.

[paul_oshea]

I think people are overestimating the standard of Croatia's domestic structures to be honest. Generally what their national team has achieved is done despite their domestic setup, not because of it.

Ya this one's been pulled out a few times and then referenced about new Zealand in rugby. I mentioned a few years back when I was in Croatia a friend brought me a long to sibenik and a local youth team in makarska training. I'm no expert but the facilities didn't look much better than my local football club at home for the second team mentioned. And I was in split and saw another team training as we were driving around and again facilities and stuff like that were similar to what I'd have seen around LOI clubs.
The other argument thrown out was oh but they don't have Gaelic sports : rolleyes: they've got waterpolo, handball and basketball to compete with similar numbers of countries playing that at a high level in the world to rugby. Oh and they got more medals than us I'm pretty sure at the last Olympics. The only thing they don't produce is golfers and you can probably guess why that is.

[paul_oshea]

read this article today and thought of my post above. While i wont say "i'm right" as it is clearly a very nuanced topic, the article does support that possession without intent is meaningless in terms of team effectiveness and that good players make a big difference. Anyway, more so thought it might be a good read for those interested...

https://theathletic.com/2352067/2021...c-in-football/

The possession without intent bit was that not what the other side in this discussion was saying?! I don't remember you saying that but I do remember me saying it :P

[Jd2793]

facilities are one thing but the structures are clearly in place domestically in croatia for them to be churning out players like this. i dont think its even up for debate. whatever they are doing they are doing it exceptionally well considering they also compete with a massive sport like basketball

[pineapple stu]

One huge benefit they have of course is that they get huge transfer fees to reinvest into the clubs (and maybe siphon off a couple of mill illegally of course). Dinamo got €11m this season, €24m last season (per wiki). That's huge money.

But yeah, there's something in the water there alright

[Jd2793]

youd have to assume they dont have their own versions of ddsl csl etc interfering with the schoolboys game aswell. but look maybe those involved in schoolboy football in ireland will wake up eventually. our population is growing , theirs is declining. the only way should be up for ireland but god knows it wont happen.

[pineapple stu]

our population is growing , theirs is declining. the only way should be up for ireland but god knows it wont happen.

I'd be a little bit careful about simplifying like this. Croatia's expat population is growing (Lovren, Rakitic, Corluka, Kovacic, etc) and our population is growing because of people who don't necessarily consider themselves Irish (although I think the GAA will be the bigger loser there).

I think as the century goes on, and the population of Croatia and other Eastern European countries tends towards nil while the population of Ireland and other Western countries pushes below 50% original native (for want of a better term), you're likely to see increased kickback against that. May you live in interesting times, as they say...

[John83]

I would say the population comparison is significant. How can Croatia (and indeed Uruguay) with similar population do infinitely better than us. It's all down to coaching. And while ours may have improved a bit, we're still not remotely close to these standards

"All" is too strong. Coaching and youth structures are the biggest part, but there are others: e.g. as Ireland grew more affluent, the attraction of a risky sporting career may have diminished; rugby has become the flagship successful international team sport, siphoning off atheletic talent; the GAA also competes for talent; both GAA and rugby compete for state sports funding (as do horse and greyhound racing with a disgraceful amount of success); "home-grown" quotas in UK squads and the rise of UK football as a fashionably place for a billionaire to own a club means our players are competing with global talent far more than a generation ago.

The way you fight all of this is to improve domestic youth structures and coaching, and to invest in the domestic league as a development league for young talent. That requires competent investment, and we have the FAI: a laughing stock among sporting organisations even domestically.

[paul_oshea]

I'm not so sure. Look at Switzerland , conflict is dying out in these countries , and with that the sense of national identity is diluting. Mad to think ireland has 20% non-native population already. It's great if it wasn't so regionalised. But at the same time I don't want that sense of " irishness " lost.

Oh and the money thing in Croatia. No I'm not buying that either that's why hajduk fans were protesting in the stands at those euros way back. Dinamo are still corrupt sure the president had to go live in bih for a while due to all the swindling. That money is all soaked up in one club. It does very little for Croatian football. Have you been to hajduk stadium? Their trophy cabinet is the most impressive thing about it....

[tetsujin1979]

Just you bring it back to Croatia, teams like Zagreb have been exporting players successfully for decades, and ploughing that money back into their facilities. As well as that they've had success domestically and played regularly in European competition, all of which raised their profile and have playing for them an attractive proposition.
If you asked a Croatian football fan to name a League of Ireland team, how many do you think they'd manage?

[seanfhear]

Croatia produces fine athletic specimens as well ( that are also brilliant footballers which helps ) and when the exception turns out to be Luka Modric then you have some sort of DNA advantage.

I would say Croatians are very patriotic and probably don’t pay much attention when their club managers tell them Not to come back with injuries / hamstring strains / etc.

Football wise they are on a different planet to the Republic of Ireland.

[Stuttgart88]

read this article today and thought of my post above. While i wont say "i'm right" as it is clearly a very nuanced topic, the article does support that possession without intent is meaningless in terms of team effectiveness and that good players make a big difference. Anyway, more so thought it might be a good read for those interested...

https://theathletic.com/2352067/2021...c-in-football/

fair enough, but the observation that possession for possession’s sake is hardly revelatory.

[SkStu]

No, not at all!! But as I said, it does go a bit deeper into the whole topic of possession and other statistical indicators around effectiveness.

[tetsujin1979]

It's a bit like using BMI for health. At best, it's an indicator of how well you're doing, but you can still get a good result despite having a bad value in either.

[paul_oshea]

Ya you told youre a healthy weight only to have chronic heart disease

[Stuttgart88]

I've always been a bit sceptical of this "competing sports" argument. I've heard it said you need x hours a week of contact with a ball etc to develop to the standard required and our players aren't getting that. I've heard that early specialisation is key but equally I've heard that playing other sports is key. Which is it? My guess (and that's all it is) is that if you have the talent to be a top footballer you'll get there despite the competition from other codes - notwithstanding luck, having a pathway etc.

I've heard anecdotally that John Egan was a brilliant GAA footballer, Shane Long a great hurler, Tony Grealish a very good GAA footballer, Niall Quinn a real talent at hurling. Several rugby players like Rob Kearney had very good GAA backgrounds. But they all ended up doing what they were comparatively better at and at a very high level. I read at the time of his death that Grealish was immersed in GAA culture but what really stood out was his gift for footy. Does football really lose top class talent to GAA and rugby? Maybe we actually benefit from it?

I'd place more value on an argument that Croatia and Denmark benefit from having exposure to other sports like handball, or hockey in the Netherlands, sports that give you not just the diversified exposure you need to develop certain motor skills but also spatial awareness that is closer to the needs of football.

I'm not sure rugby draws its talent pool from potential top class footballers. I'm not making a socio economic cliche here but a disproportionate number of rugby players come from a small number of schools. And the type of athlete needed to excel at rugby isn't necessarily the same as that required by football. GAA football is probably closer but I remember hearing stories like Graham Geraty trialling at football and not being good enough.

I think the GAA's economic and political might crowds out investment in football though, and that is a big factor. I don't think the IRFU crowds out potential investment in football though.

[seanfhear]

I've always been a bit sceptical of this "competing sports" argument. I've heard it said you need x hours a week of contact with a ball etc to develop to the standard required and our players aren't getting that. I've heard that early specialisation is key but equally I've heard that playing other sports is key. Which is it? My guess (and that's all it is) is that if you have the talent to be a top footballer you'll get there despite the competition from other codes - notwithstanding luck, having a pathway etc.

I've heard anecdotally that John Egan was a brilliant GAA footballer, Shane Long a great hurler, Tony Grealish a very good GAA footballer, Niall Quinn a real talent at hurling. Several rugby players like Rob Kearney had very good GAA backgrounds. But they all ended up doing what they were comparatively better at and at a very high level. I read at the time of his death that Grealish was immersed in GAA culture but what really stood out was his gift for footy. Does football really lose top class talent to GAA and rugby? Maybe we actually benefit from it?

I'd place more value on an argument that Croatia and Denmark benefit from having exposure to other sports like handball, or hockey in the Netherlands, sports that give you not just the diversified exposure you need to develop certain motor skills but also spatial awareness that is closer to the needs of football.

I'm not sure rugby draws its talent pool from potential top class footballers. I'm not making a socio economic cliche here but a disproportionate number of rugby players come from a small number of schools. And the type of athlete needed to excel at rugby isn't necessarily the same as that required by football. GAA football is probably closer but I remember hearing stories like Graham Geraty trialling at football and not being good enough.

I think the GAA's economic and political might crowds out investment in football though, and that is a big factor. I don't think the IRFU crowds out potential investment in football though.

I was a much better soccer player than a GAA player but I could do a certain job on a GAA pitch if you needed a player to give the full-back / centre half-back a physical battle ~ I will be honest if you had a good attacking player then I would not be playing but sometime needs must, and in these positions a physical battle can have an impact on a GAA pitch.

John Egans father was a brilliant Kerry footballer who won multiple All-Ireland in one of the best GAA teams of all time ~ ~ He was a very fast forward and I mean very fast.