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Thread: Euro 2020 qualifying

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by geysir View Post
    How is this interpreted?
    "If a league does not have four teams to compete, the remaining slots are allocated to teams from another league, according to the overall UEFA Nations League rankings."
    I need reminding where that sentence comes from. I think it comes from the "How the Nations League Works" webpage, rather than the Nations League Regulations and the UEFA 2020 Regulations. Yes?

    I think that sentence is accurate, but incomplete.

    In the scenario described in the video there is clearly no draw. B5 (i.e. the 5th ranked remaining B team) simply joins A1,A2 and A3.

    In the other scenario where there are no As that have failed to qualify, it'd follow from the video that B5 plays C1, C2 and C3, with Article 17 determining that B5 plays C3 and C1 plays C2.

    In the rules (as I understand them) however, it'd follow that 4 Bs must be in a play off path together and one B must be in a path with the 3 C teams. And I think this is where a draw is made. Once the draw is made to allocate teams to their play off path, Article 17 kicks in to determine who pays who.
    Last edited by Stuttgart88; 23/11/2018 at 9:33 AM.

  2. #22
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    A choice of rankings before the draw. Note that of the 31 teams in just-finished Leagues C & D, only 4 have managed to qualify in the top 2 of a group since 2010.

    Last edited by Gather round; 23/11/2018 at 1:49 PM.

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  4. #23
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    Yes Stutts, I'm definitely partial to a good visual

    That draw UEFA are referring to is a draw made after the 4 play off paths have been filled, with 4 teams in each path, it's a draw to determine home advantage in the play off semi finals.
    "The draw will only determine the potential home teams in each path final – with the semi-finals pairings pre-determined by overall rankings."
    I did not argue against a draw, I merely said there will be no draw to determine which teams fill the 4x4 play off paths.

  5. #24
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    Ok, that web page says that a draw determines which play off finalist in a given path (not semi finalists) plays the final at home. That is also in the Euro 2020 Regulations, article 17.04

    17.04 For each play-off final, a draw is conducted in advance to determine which semi- final winner will play at home.

    But are you not assuming that the draw referred to in 17.04 is the ONLY draw? [Edit: yes that web page does say "the draw" as if there is only one, and it says all the draw does is allocate the home team in a play off final - I see that]

    But the confusion arises because Article 16 explicitly states
    "16.03 The UEFA administration conducts a draw to allocate teams to the different play-offs path" - yet you (and the UEFA web page) say the [only] draw is made after the play off path is filled and you say there is no draw that determines the play off path constituents.

    Do these not flatly contradict each other?

    If there was no article 16 my reading would be the same as yours. But article 16.03 pretty clearly says that the draw determines which teams go into which play off path!

    Article 17 then pre determines which teams are at home in the semi final
    A separate draw determines which of the two semi final winners is at home in the final

    The draw that determines the play-off path allocation isn't totally random; it might have to be rigged slightly because a NL group winner can't be in a playoff path with a team from a higher League, and if 4 or more teams are from a given League, 4 must be in that League's play off path - but it doesn't say which 4.

    So in the scenario where there are only 5 Bs and 3 Cs left to fill the A and B play off paths it can't be any combination of Bs and Cs. It must be 4 Bs in the B path, and a B and 3Cs in the A path. In my opinion it seems to be the Article 16.03 draw that determines which B team is among the C teams.

    However, I think it could be strongly argued that you construct the B play off path with the 4 best remaining B teams; then and only then do you fill the A play off path with what's left. This might be 4 As, 3 As and the next highest remaining team.....no As and the next best 4 remaining teams which might even include Cs; in our scenario we are saying that the 5th best B team gets really lucky if it is in a play off path with 3 Cs, but gets its just desserts if it plays in a path with 3As.

    I'm not being all Paul O'Shea on this and demanding to be proved right. I genuinely just want certainty - and you're not providing that for me, nor does the cartoon! I think there is ambiguity and a contradiction between the web page you have linked and the actual Regulations.

    The only thing I can think of that removes the contradiction is that the "draw" in Article 16.03 isn't a random draw, it's a fully rules-based draw; so not a draw at all as we understand it which is why I'm wondering if the document was prepared in French or German initially and then translated into English. If this is the case, then the ambiguity is probably removed and I'd agree with you.
    Last edited by Stuttgart88; 23/11/2018 at 6:00 PM.

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  7. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuttgart88 View Post
    Ok, that web page says that a draw determines which play off finalist in a given path (not semi finalists) plays the final at home. That is also in the Euro 2020 Regulations, article 17.04

    17.04 For each play-off final, a draw is conducted in advance to determine which semi- final winner will play at home.

    But are you not assuming that the draw referred to in 17.04 is the ONLY draw? [Edit: yes that web page does say "the draw" as if there is only one, and it says all the draw does is allocate the home team in a play off final - I see that]

    But the confusion arises because Article 16 explicitly states
    "16.03 The UEFA administration conducts a draw to allocate teams to the different play-offs path" - yet you (and the UEFA web page) say the [only] draw is made after the play off path is filled and you say there is no draw that determines the play off path constituents.
    Do these not flatly contradict each other?
    It can certainly be interpreted that there is a contradiction within the ambiguity you have highlighted, I just don't think there is enough to hang a hat on.
    The previous articles 16.02 C and 16.02 D have already stated that the top 4 places in each path are determined by rankings, no mention of a draw.
    We are then left with the ambiguity in article 16.03

    But as everything else written (and in spectacular visual form) by Uefa staff supports the rankings determination criteria, therefore I go with volume and weight of evidence, the ambiguity evident in 16.03 is not enough to sway that.

    I suspect 16.03 is a bit botched and afaics the interpretation that there is a draw to determine which teams go into the play off spots, is unsupported by anything else written on the Uefa pages.
    Anyway, let's be positive now that there is a new dawn on the horizon for Irish football, a top two place surely beckons. Leave the vagaries of dicing with the play offs to NI, Scotland and their ilk.

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  9. #26
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    Draw underway now. We'll be drawn in about 5 minutes; pot 1 just being finished off at the moment

  10. #27
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    Drawn with Holland and Germany...

    Until the computer intervenes and puts us in with Switzerland and Denmark.

    The North get Holland and Germany instead.

    God bless that computer!

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  12. #28
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    Our old friends Georgia added. Be an interesting comparison between Mick's Ireland and Martin's one

  13. #29
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    Lol talk about being a lucky manager. Hopefully sign of things to come

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    Heart stopped when we got drawn out.

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    Crap draw so far... watch this, fecking Macedonia will come out here !!!!

    Can we not just get one simple game so Mick can have an easy start

  16. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple stu View Post
    Drawn with Holland and Germany...

    Until the computer intervenes and puts us in with Switzerland and Denmark.

    The North get Holland and Germany instead.

    God bless that computer!
    Anyone know if there is a rule against Dublin Council giving a computer the freedom of the city?

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  18. #33
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    I love that computer.. Gibralter

  19. #34
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    And Gibraltar finishes it off.

    Switzerland
    Denmark
    Ireland
    Georgia
    Gibraltar

    About as good as we could have hoped for really.

  20. #35
    Seasoned Pro shakermaker1982's Avatar
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    Not a bad group. Could have been a lot worse.

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    Well, we're bound to get a result off the Danes eventually. Swiss didn't look spectacular at the World Cup. Couldn't have gotten much better I suppose.

    Why did the computer skip a group again?

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    Quote Originally Posted by shakermaker1982 View Post
    Not a bad group. Could have been a lot worse.
    Your fecking right it could have been worse haha

  23. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by NeverFeltBetter View Post
    Well, we're bound to get a result off the Danes eventually. Swiss didn't look spectacular at the World Cup. Couldn't have gotten much better I suppose.

    Why did the computer skip a group again?
    Holland and Germany are hosts, so we couldn't handed been drawn there as well because we're also a host. Daft, but happy to take it and leave the North with it!

    Same issue with Azerbaijan in our group - too many hosts together (Denmark and us)

  24. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by NeverFeltBetter View Post
    Well, we're bound to get a result off the Danes eventually. Swiss didn't look spectacular at the World Cup. Couldn't have gotten much better I suppose.

    Why did the computer skip a group again?
    Because Ireland were already in with Denmark.. which is also a host city. So we couldn't go in with Azerbijan.. as it would be three hosts in one group.

    They also skipped putting Latvia into a group because you can only have one "Winter" team in a group

  25. #40
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    Fixtures out later today apparently.

    Two games in March, September, October and November. Nothing in June

    Edit - Darragh Moloney now saying our free days won't necessarily be June
    Last edited by pineapple stu; 02/12/2018 at 12:06 PM.

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