A few taunts but Linfield fans come and go in peace

[Éanna]

MWAHAHAHAHHAHAHA!!! LOL

you're tryign to get someone to bite???
its an anti-scottish song for one thing. The 6 counties is not a 'nation' so it has not got GSTQ as its 'national' anthem. they didnt travel 'abroad'...
****!

it is the national anthem of the representative team of northern ireland in interntaional football. thats a fact. whether you like it or not.

[thejollyrodger]

TBH the anti catholic songs dont really offend me as much now, they can come down here, wear rangers jerseys, sing god save the king etc, all they like as long as there is no violance.

There is always going to be that element in some northern protestant clubs up north. Its going to take a while to stamp it out. The best we can hope for is the status quo.

I think the longford fans did brilliantly last night just to ignore them and not react. Its the best policy. Sooner or later clubs can be identified as inciting hatred and get fined accordingly. Maybe sentanta can think up imagative ideas like prize money for best supporters or fair play.

At the end of the day its about football and winning matches. Linfield came away with 0 points last night and a few sing songs and flags isnt going to change that.

[A face]

Any Linfield fans out there and we might get their side of things ..... it being totally onside up until now.

[dortie]

No, you're taking me up ALL wrong here. I was pointing out that GSTQ and the Sash are not sectarian songs- I don't like them, but they are NOT sectarian.

Sometimes i wonder about you lad. Go read the lyrics of the Sash, up to their neck in fenian blood aint sectarian is it ???

Why be an apologist for sectarian loyalist thugs ??? Thats what was wrong with 'moderate' nationalists up here for too long until they wised up to it.

[dcfcsteve]

Any Linfield fans out there and we might get their side of things ..... it being totally onside up until now.

There was a URL link earlier in this thread into the Linfield section of the Irish League Forum. Keep up, A Face.... http://www.irishleagueforums.net/for...5&pagenumber=1

The overwhelming majority of posters on there are, to use a Northern phrase, 'scundered' by what happened. They've also mentioned singing of what are called "party songs" and anti-pope songs in pubs before the game, Nazi salutes during God Save the Queen, and a few cars having their windows smashed just outside Longford.

Thankfully the vast majority of Linfield fans also abhorr this sort of behaviour, and it seems to have been hangers on who were primarily responsible.

[dcfcsteve]

No, you're taking me up ALL wrong here. I was pointing out that GSTQ and the Sash are not sectarian songs

Eanna - as I mentioned in an earlier post, it is not just the words alone that make the singing of certain songs sectarian. The context and intentions of those singing them also have to be considered. A small minority of hangers-on at a Linfield game singing GSTQ randomly in a football match in the Republic is clearly intended by those singing it as an inflammatory/sectarian/triumphalist gesture. The song "No surrender to the IRA" isn't sectarian, but would you assert that English fans singing it at Irish fans was completely devoid of sectarian/rascist intent/undertones ?

There's a famous American song called 'The South will rise again'. Whilst it doesn't contain a jot of rascist lyrics, it is an anthem of the white supremacist movement in the southern states, as a result of what the Confederate States are construed to have stood for in the US Civil War. Singing that at a crowd of black people would therefore be construed as rascist and inflammatory, even if it doesn't contain any rascist words.

The German national anthem isn't rascist, yet if we all sang it at the home game against Israel in June you can be damn sure it would go down like a sh!t sandwich. Yet if Israel played Germany it would be acceptable. Why ? Because of the context and intentions of those singing it.

Waving the British Union flag in itself isn't necessarily a sectarian gesture. Do it as Linfield fans at a game in Longford, and the context gives it a somewhat different meaning. Those waving the flag know full-well that doing so at such a game would be construed by many as provocative, so to do so deliberately would signla ill intentions. Likewise, the Confederate flag in the US is construed as rascist when used deliberately to provocate black people, yet it's not sectarian when it's waved at games in Ireland featuring 'The Rebel County'. It's all about the context and the intentions....

I've been in an Indian household here in London where the family has a big carpet in the Living Room with a huge swastika on it. The swastika is an ancient Hindu religious symbol - ironically appropriated by arch-rascist Adolf Hitler. If I walked into a white working class home in the Isle of Dogs (Millwall's heartland) and they had a carpet with a swastika on it, it would be correct for me to construe that the context and intentions were somewhat different in having that there.

Anti-Catholocism in Ireland has been around for so long that it's even tolerated, ignored or considered inoffensive by many Catholics themselves now! That is tragic. We need to wake-up and accept that having songs sang with lyrics or the intention of insulting Catholics is as wrong as singing songs or conducting gestures that are intended to insult/hurt any other religious or racial group. It's not just about words alone, it's also about the clear and obvious intention.

It's time for the 'Croppies' to no longer simply "lie down"....

[Bald Student]

The German national anthem isn't rascist, yet if we all sang it at the home game against Israel in June you can be damn sure it would go down like a sh!t sandwich. Yet if Israel played Germany it would be acceptable.

I agree entirely, just as it is acceptable for a team from the UK to sing their national anthem and wave their national flag.

I wasn't at the match so I don't know what else they sang or did but I disagree with the indo's implication that the british national anthem is sectarien.

[gspain]

Sometimes i wonder about you lad. Go read the lyrics of the Sash, up to their neck in fenian blood aint sectarian is it ???

Why be an apologist for sectarian loyalist thugs ??? Thats what was wrong with 'moderate' nationalists up here for too long until they wised up to it.

The Billy Boys contains the line "up to our knees (maybe it is necks though) in Fenian blood" - either way sectarian.

The Sash lyrics are below - nothing offensive that I see although it is viewed as such

you can even hear it here

http://cityofoaks.home.netcom.com/tu...atherWore.html

Sure I'm an Ulster Orangeman,
From Erin's Isle I came,
To see my British brethren
All of honour and of fame,
And to tell them of my forefathers
Who fought in days of yore,
That I might have the right to wear,
The sash my father wore!
Chorus:
It is old, but it is beautiful,
And its colors they are fine
It was worn at Derry, Aughrim,
Enniskillen and the Boyne.
My father wore it as a youth
In bygone days of yore
And on the Twelfth I love to wear
The sash my father wore.

For those brave men who crossed the Boyne
Have not fought or died in vain
Our Unity, Religion, Laws,
And Freedom to maintain,
If the call should come we'll follow the drum,
And cross that river once more
That tomorrow's Ulsterman may wear
The sash my father wore!
Chorus

And when some day, across the sea
To Antrim's shore you come,
We'll welcome you in royal style,
To the sound of flute and drum
And Ulster's hills shall echo still,
From Rathlin to Dromore
As we sing again the loyal strain
Of the sash my father wore!

Chorus


Note if the above is sectarian then the London Irish club should also apologise for that ditty they sang at Windsor in 1988

The Cap that Big Jack wore

It is old but it is beautiful and it's colour it was grey
It was worn at Stuttgart Sofia....

And on the 12th (June of course )
we proudly wear the cap that Big Jack wore......

[gspain]

Anti-Catholocism in Ireland has been around for so long that it's even tolerated, ignored or considered inoffensive by many Catholics themselves now! That is tragic. We need to wake-up and accept that having songs sang with lyrics or the intention of insulting Catholics is as wrong as singing songs or conducting gestures that are intended to insult/hurt any other religious or racial group. It's not just about words alone, it's also about the clear and obvious intention.

It's time for the 'Croppies' to no longer simply "lie down"....

While you are correct in everything you say and while your own club's fans and Longford fans have behaved impeccably in recent weeks there are still problems with sectarianism from both nationalists and unionists on this island.

I'm sure if you visit Loyalist or Republican drinking dens you'll hear an awful lot worse.

Last night was a few drunk ********s singing party songs.

[Docboy]

What absolute b**sh**t. Obviously the 35,000 who were in Paris were all "fair weather supporters". Many of those who travel regularly to support the Republic have a keen interest in the eircom League. If you travelled you would know that. There are others who have a passing interest in the eircom League and others who would rather spend their money travelling to Celtic Park, Anfield or Highbury. It's their money. Who am I (or you, for that matter) to tell them how to spend their own time and money?[/QUOTE]

Spot on brother,there are far too many posters here who look down on others and feel like they are only thro supporters. Cack!!

[pete]

Back on topic.

Very good positive article on the setanta cup game in longford in the Indo today.

I really think the Setanta Cup is going to be ground breaking for irish football. maybe its cos I was too young to notice previous cross border competitions but i think this is like an Ireland Champions League with entertaining attacking games.

[dcfcsteve]

While you are correct in everything you say and while your own club's fans and Longford fans have behaved impeccably in recent weeks there are still problems with sectarianism from both nationalists and unionists on this island.

I'm sure if you visit Loyalist or Republican drinking dens you'll hear an awful lot worse.

Last night was a few drunk ********s singing party songs.

Sadly - there are still problems with sectarianism on both sides of the 'divide'. But hearing sectarian songs in the cosy confines of a Loyalist or Republican drinking den in the North is far from the same as hearing them at a televised open-house sporting event in the Republic with a mixed-religious attendance.

My point here isn't so much the fact that there was sectarian singing, but more the reaction of people on this site to it. "Sure - if it was only a wee bit of sectarian singing, then that's alright. At least they didn't go on a riot". As if being abused for your religious upbringing is some sort of small mercy ! The same people then invariably condemned the monkey chants towards Eric Lavine (which incidentally appear to have involved less people than the sectarian singing/chanting). If rascism is worthy of unqualified condemnation, then why isn't sectarianism ? I didn't hear any "Sure - if it was only a wee bit of monkey chanting, then that's alright. At least they didn't go on a riot".

My point here is that people have become de-sensitised to anti-Catholic sectarianism - particularly down south where you haven't really had to suffer it for many years.

Sectarian chanting is as wrong as rascist chanting and should be equally condemned. Regardless if it's put to music. No if's and but's, and no qualification.

Three other points : I know it's the phrase used by protestants/loyalists themselves, but I absolutely detest the reference to sectarian chants as "party songs". It trys to paint a benign gloss on what is outright sectarianism. Either that or the invites to Catholics must have all got lost in the post....

Secondly - what do you think actually happens in Republican drinking dens by the way ? I've been to a few in my time. Not to leave with a frosty voice after endless hours of chanting anti-Protestant abuse, but to get a drink. Usually at dubious hours of the morning. Some of the attendees would be dodgy characters, but a lot are just ordinary run-of-the-mill locals getting jarred. People don't stand around abusing Protestants all-day in such places. Apart from very, very occassionally when major sporting events have been on (usually involving a certain Scottish team) the only abuse that tends to get meted out is towards peoples own livers....

And finally - I can't think of any Irish 'rebel' songs that contain words referring to/celebrating the slaughter of random Protestants, a la The Billy Boys. I'll admit my personal inventory of 'RA tunes isn't as well stocked as it could be, but I'd like to hear of any such tunes if anyone knows them (e.g. are there any Catholic 1641 tunes ?)

[thecorner]

only way to shut them up is puttiing the ball in the net...wont be long quietning down then

[SÓC]

Sure I'm an Ulster Orangeman,
From Erin's Isle I came,
To see my British brethren
All of honour and of fame,
And to tell them of my forefathers
Who fought in days of yore,
That I might have the right to wear,
The sash my father wore!
Chorus:
It is old, but it is beautiful,
And its colors they are fine
It was worn at Derry, Aughrim,
Enniskillen and the Boyne.
My father wore it as a youth
In bygone days of yore
And on the Twelfth I love to wear
The sash my father wore.

Never knew the words before now...seems more like something from four funerals and a wedding (give my head peace)!

[Ronnie]

Seen as our fans have stopped contributing to this thread, as a Town fan the event was very safe, theres wa good banter in the Town before and after with the Linfield fans, the match was entertaining, for us anyway. The biggest "taunt" we got was Longford, Longford give us a song, directed at our notoriously quiet stand. Fans at the game didn't pay much heed to waht else was being sung, it may have come across louder on TV than at the match. But for those of you compaining about the sectarian songs, could this game have passed off without less incident? I don't think so, its a far cry from 1979.

[Macy]

Very little trouble, a few idiots singing sectarian songs, the press actually treating it with some semblence of reality (no sensationlist headlines) and still we have a 3 page argument about it.

Think people in the eL community want to cop on abit, considering the "orange bástard" stuff Fenlon has taken for years, before getting on their high horses about a few linfield fans.

I've no doubt that come the final, if an eL team gets there, there'll be píssed up bandwagoners singing RA songs around and in Lansdowne (and if there's a Northern Team ditto for loyalist songs).

[fosterdollar]

The second consideration is the intention behind singing cxertaion songs. Singing the sash during a brand practise in an Orange Hall is of no offence or consequence to anyone. Singing it at a football game against Catholic opposition is clearly designed and intended to goad the opposition....

...but when the context changes to one against a Catholic team it takes on a whol different meaning...

Since when have we been a Catholic Team??? Creating an 'us and them' atmosphere is what groups in the North excel at in my experience. Not interested in that in Longford, thankfully. My opinion on the lack of Longford retaliation to the people who really were singing any sectarian songs was that they were barking up the wrong tree. It just has damn all meaning here.

Longford has hardly been a hot-bed of Irish politics at any point in its history (Albert Reynolds aside ) . If Linfield fans sing songs like those against Cork City in the final, for example, the reaction may not be as relaxed. It's a recipe for mayhem, and those singing the songs are well aware of it....

If the absolute mayhem that is politics in NI is what you call a hot-bed of politics you are more than welcome to it, my friend.

[pete]

Never knew the words before now...seems more like something from four funerals and a wedding (give my head peace)!

Nothing offense in that song.

Football fans in the republic shouldn't give a crap about politics. Leave that to others.

[wws]

My point here is that people have become de-sensitised to anti-Catholic sectarianism - particularly down south where you haven't really had to suffer it for many years.Sectarian chanting is as wrong as rascist chanting and should be equally condemned. Regardless if it's put to music. No if's and but's, and no qualification.


People don't stand around abusing Protestants all-day in such places. Apart from very, very occassionally when major sporting events have been on (usually involving a certain Scottish team)

I find these two points jarring with me a little - especially when you set them side by side. I dont agree with sectarian chanting but its a no brainer that it will occur in a cross border football competition - be that from any side of the tribal divide. Just police the thing well and hopefully they can keep a lid on any major violence erupting which given that the SETANTA cup has been great football/tv/ and prizemoney wise - im sure all will agree would be a bad thing to happen if this goes by the wayside like all other cross border football initiatives.

[Dricky]

Surely the "what's it like to have a queen" chant only works with those who don't really want a queen, like Derry. The Ports fans response to "what's it like to have a queen" would probably be, it's very nice thank you very much for asking.

We can always change it to whats it like to have camillia