Republic of Ireland V Wales - Tuesday, 16th October 2018 - UEFA Nations League

**brine3** · 17/10/2018, 3:49 PM

Originally Posted by Diggs246

Oh sh*t, that's very problematic. so what are we thinking here, lets say we get beaten in Denmark, that's just our tough luck and we are stuck with them until 2020?

Could be a blessing in disguise. After paying them off they won't be able to afford another big name manager looking for easy money, and so they turn to Stephen Kenny...

**mark12345** · 17/10/2018, 4:14 PM

Originally Posted by Cathalsmart

That’s true but we have to start somewhere, the easiest start to all this is getting rid of thing 1 and thing 2, at least than even if the players are average at least we don’t have a poisonous camp and patronizing coach. Once that issue is sorted than we can move on to stage 2.

Ok, so we agree on that. So O'Neill and Keane are gone in a month's time. Now let's put some building blocks in place.

My vision of a proper national team is one which is similar to Croatia, Uruguay or Denmark. Why? Because those teams have players (all eleven who take to the pitch and everyone on the bench) who can receive and distribute the ball, retain possession, and threaten their opponents with a few short intelligent passes.

In addition, I pick these three countries because they have populations which are close or quite close to our own. In the case of Croatia and Uruguay, I would say the funding for sport in those countries would be less than in Ireland (I believe that is their respective economic situations?). What is so good about their coaching structure and so bad (or different) about ours? People will point to Gaelic games and rugby reducing the pool of soccer players in Ireland, but once those kids from the Irish diaspora are factored in, then I would say we are on level terms if not better off.

The question we must ask ourselves then, is if we have a lot more going for ourselves than the aforementioned countries, why are we so far behind them in terms of ability?
Answer, it all comes back to organisation and coaching. I have long since said on this forum, that we need to import youth coaches from South America and Africa (I would add Croatia to that list) and God knows John Delaney could forgo a couple of Euros from his salary to make that happen. Why, because that is where all the top quality players in European football are coming from. There are some basics they are teaching their kids which make them far better players than ours, N. Ireland's, Scotland's, Wales's and England's (albeit with the latter seeming to make far more progress lately). I played in the LOI many moons ago, and I can tell you that I learned more in the six months after leaving Ireland, than I did in my whole life to that point. On the evidence of Ireland's performances in the Aviva on Saturday and Tuesday, not much has changed in that regard - at least with our senior players.

There are some encouraging signs on the horizon with our underage teams (and we're seeing the results to match) but would it kill the FAI to begin a development program for the country's top tier league to accommodate those kids who are showing promise. The chicken and egg situation for the LOI is that people will not come out to watch rubbish football and the league can't produce top drawer football without some sort of a fan base to sustain its better players. Neither party is wrong. The league has to create a market for itself - there were encouraging flirtations with European football over the last few years with Dundalk and Shamrock Rovers, but that star has since faded. In fairness to the Irish fans, they did get behind both of those teams when they succeeded in Europe. And that has to be the goal going forward - perennial improvement of LOI clubs on the European stage. A lot better people than I have called for the development of the domestic game in Ireland. Surely now is the time to answer those calls.

**Razors left peg** · 17/10/2018, 6:15 PM

Hearing the same crap that always gets spouted about "we dont have the players". Same thing was being said when Staunton was in charge. What happened...we replaced him with Trappatoni and qualified for the Euros. Then when we were having bad results again, we dont have the players. Again we replaced the Manager and O'Neill comes in and has great early success. Qualified for Euros again before eventually his methods stop working.

Its absolutely time for a new manager again. A football manager is not a guaranteed job for life and when you stop winning games ( we have now won 1 game in last 10) its time for a change. We dont have the players... what players did Wales have last night? O'Neill is now also telling his players that they are not good enough. How would that work in any other walk of life. Imagine your boss never telling you how he wants to do your job, giving you a task that you have never done before (Christie in midfield) and then telling everyone that you are not good enough. Good managers make the most of what they have.

**seanfhear** · 17/10/2018, 8:04 PM

Teams turn up and think ....’ Sure even their own manager doesn’t think they are any good "

**backstothewall** · 17/10/2018, 9:20 PM

So it's that time again...

Whether they stay or go, i think the nation now views O'Neill and Keane is the past tense. They are dead men walking. Which is dead enough for the autopsy to begin.

My 2 cents are

1. The FAI isn't fit for purpose. There was talk a few years ago of Niall Quinn after Delaney's job. In a perfect world Delaney would me moved out of the way to to a nice paying job in UEFA or FIFA and Quinn could take over. It won't happen though so i don't intend to spend much more effort on this

2. We need better pathways for players. Less kids are getting across to England these days, as Premier League academies are being filled by the best young players identified by global scouting networks. There needs to be better opportunities for the best players here to receive training on a par with that in a Premier League academy. There's no reason at all why the FAI couldn't establish something equivalent in Dublin for players who don't get across. Looking the u19 squad it is sprinkled with a decent number of players at League of Ireland clubs. Surely more could be done to give those guys a foot up to a professional career.

The other side of it being more difficult for kids getting over at 15 is that there are greater opportunities for players to go over in their early 20s. Even for those who get across as teenagers, it wouldn't be untypical to go to England at 14/15, get spat back out at 18/19, spend 2 seasons playing competitive football in the League of Ireland and end up going back to England at 21/22. I would suggest that we ought to do anything we can to create opportunities for those kids who come home having failed to break through in their first crack at England. They used to have a rule in the SPL that all clubs must include at least three players under the age of 21 in their matchday squad. A version of that might work well in the League of Ireland.

If we were to take a really radical approach we could have a national academy offering central contracts to 40 odd players who qualify for the national underage squads. They could train 1 day per week with League of Ireland clubs, and play for them on match days. Which clubs an individual club would be assigned to for a season could be decided by a draft like they do in America. If nothing else it would be good TV, and the clubs would have a few less players to pay wages to.

**brine3** · 18/10/2018, 9:31 AM

O'Neill in the papers being very defiant and somewhat arrogant.

Dunno if he is serious or trying to negotiate a good payoff.

**Stuttgart88** · 18/10/2018, 11:51 AM

Originally Posted by backstothewall

So it's that time again...

Whether they stay or go, i think the nation now views O'Neill and Keane is the past tense. They are dead men walking. Which is dead enough for the autopsy to begin.

My 2 cents are

1. The FAI isn't fit for purpose. There was talk a few years ago of Niall Quinn after Delaney's job. In a perfect world Delaney would me moved out of the way to to a nice paying job in UEFA or FIFA and Quinn could take over. It won't happen though so i don't intend to spend much more effort on this

2. We need better pathways for players. Less kids are getting across to England these days, as Premier League academies are being filled by the best young players identified by global scouting networks. There needs to be better opportunities for the best players here to receive training on a par with that in a Premier League academy. There's no reason at all why the FAI couldn't establish something equivalent in Dublin for players who don't get across. Looking the u19 squad it is sprinkled with a decent number of players at League of Ireland clubs. Surely more could be done to give those guys a foot up to a professional career.

The other side of it being more difficult for kids getting over at 15 is that there are greater opportunities for players to go over in their early 20s. Even for those who get across as teenagers, it wouldn't be untypical to go to England at 14/15, get spat back out at 18/19, spend 2 seasons playing competitive football in the League of Ireland and end up going back to England at 21/22. I would suggest that we ought to do anything we can to create opportunities for those kids who come home having failed to break through in their first crack at England. They used to have a rule in the SPL that all clubs must include at least three players under the age of 21 in their matchday squad. A version of that might work well in the League of Ireland.

If we were to take a really radical approach we could have a national academy offering central contracts to 40 odd players who qualify for the national underage squads. They could train 1 day per week with League of Ireland clubs, and play for them on match days. Which clubs an individual club would be assigned to for a season could be decided by a draft like they do in America. If nothing else it would be good TV, and the clubs would have a few less players to pay wages to.

1. Yes, FAI not fit for purpose. Pat Fenlon was on RTE yesterday saying they're not motivated, driven. They're all on a cushy number and they know it. The thread I started on "Governance of the FAI" was designed to stimulate debate on this topic.
2. I may be naive, but I was very impressed by Ruud Dokter's recent interview on the Greatest League in the World podcast. Either he's a highly accomplished spoofer or he is doing good things. I think it's the latter. Allowing the LOI clubs to take over from the traditional schoolboy clubs is a good thing - though U13 is probably too early. The national underage leagues are good. And so on...
3. Are centralised contracts legal/workable in the European landscape?
4. The U21s need to be taken seriously. King is a disaster. The fact (or what I understand as fact) that he doubles up as head of recruitment and as U21 coach is a clear conflict of interest.
5. The pathway issue is a problem alright. Beyond the problem that we lose talent at a critical stage of players' development, there is a deep human cost. It's simply horrific that ill-prepared kids are shipped over to England like chattels, entering whats essentially a glorified lottery. So many come back broken and disillusioned. This should actually be a matter for the Department of Foreign Affairs.
6. We need an Oireachtas inquiry into the running of the FAI and broader issues within the game such as the consequential problem of exporting teenagers to England early in their lives without support. About 5 years ago I wrote to Leo Varadkar (he was Minister for Transport, Sport & Tourism at the time - or whatever his department was called) pointing him towards a recent UK Parliamentary Inquiry into the state of English football (set up to look into issues such as there being lots of money but bankrupt grass roots, hundreds of millions going to agents each year, lack of financial regulation, mass bankruptcy of clubs, failure to pay debts to public bodies etc.). Varadkar's response was effectively that it wasn't really any of his business. He pointed me to an Oireachtas Committee chaired by John O'Mahoney TD of Mayo (I think) and he failed to reply. I pressured him on social media a bit too, but he ignored me. Justifiably so, most of you will think!
7. After Delaney was criticised for being drunk one time (might have been the rebel songs in Dublin occasion), there were brief questions asked by this Committee to John Treacy of the then Irish Sports council about JD's salary, and he shrugged off criticism saying the FAI does great work in disadvantaged areas - which was true, but not a sufficient reason not to look further into the FAI's governance.
8. In the "Governance" thread I posted that the UK equivalent of the Sports Council is very strict on good governance and monitors each NGB's governance closely. They use a "traffic light" system: red = bad, so no funding, green = good, amber = cause for concern. Our gombeens don't have the interest or the nous to do anything similar here. This is a matter of public importance. The FAI receives public funding, there are health and crime benefits associated with increased participation, and the exporting of teenagers to England is a big issue.

**jbyrne** · 18/10/2018, 12:39 PM

Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

6. We need an Oireachtas inquiry into the running of the FAI and broader issues within the game such as the consequential problem of exporting teenagers to England early in their lives without support. About 5 years ago I wrote to Leo Varadkar (he was Minister for Transport, Sport & Tourism at the time - or whatever his department was called) pointing him towards a recent UK Parliamentary Inquiry into the state of English football (set up to look into issues such as there being lots of money but bankrupt grass roots, hundreds of millions going to agents each year, lack of financial regulation, mass bankruptcy of clubs, failure to pay debts to public bodies etc.). Varadkar's response was effectively that it wasn't really any of his business. He pointed me to an Oireachtas Committee chaired by John O'Mahoney TD of Mayo (I think) and he failed to reply. I pressured him on social media a bit too, but he ignored me. Justifiably so, most of you will think!

the fact that someone like shane ross was appointed by Varadkar as our minister for sport sums up his true attitude to sport in this country.
ross cant even get the names of our successful sports people right when tweeting his congratulations..... says it all really.

**DeLorean** · 18/10/2018, 12:57 PM

Originally Posted by jbyrne

the fact that someone like shane ross was appointed by Varadkar as our minister for sport sums up his true attitude to sport in this country.

I think it was Kenny who gave him that gig.

**jbyrne** · 18/10/2018, 12:59 PM

Originally Posted by DeLorean

I think it was Kenny who gave him that gig.

ok, the FG government so.
in any case there has been a few re-shuffles since under Varadkar and he is still there.

**DeLorean** · 18/10/2018, 1:09 PM

One I think, with the RWC bid nearing its conclusion. We can blame this one on Enda

**Cathalsmart** · 18/10/2018, 1:16 PM

We have 0.000 chance of qualifying for the Euros with MON incharge. I honestly can’t see how this team can possibly beat any team that isn’t part time with all the factors involved in our set up.

**IsMiseSean** · 18/10/2018, 1:57 PM

You don't need a crystal ball to see what will happen next month.

The north will beat us in the friendly and then we'll go to Denmark with 11 men behind the ball and probably still end up losing 1-0.

I would predict McClean getting a red in the friendly - but he is suspended for the Denmark game so he might not be in the squad.

**seanfhear** · 18/10/2018, 2:09 PM

Originally Posted by IsMiseSean

You don't need a crystal ball to see what will happen next month.

The north will beat us in the friendly and then we'll go to Denmark with 11 men behind the ball and probably still end up losing 1-0.

I would predict McClean getting a red in the friendly - but he is suspended for the Denmark game so he might not be in the squad.

Its actually good that McClean is suspended . We know what he brings . Lets look at alternatives .

**Cathalsmart** · 18/10/2018, 3:05 PM

Originally Posted by IsMiseSean

You don't need a crystal ball to see what will happen next month.

The north will beat us in the friendly and then we'll go to Denmark with 11 men behind the ball and probably still end up losing 1-0.

I would predict McClean getting a red in the friendly - but he is suspended for the Denmark game so he might not be in the squad.

I never thought id want to lose 5-1 again (it was unbelievably painful the last time) but since the game matters little it would do a good job to reinforce to even the most thick headed FAI members that after 1 year of this plague nothing has changed.

**sbgawa** · 18/10/2018, 3:32 PM

Heres my starting 11 for the game against the North

Bazunu
Gannon Grace Gartland Kavanagh

Sheils
Finn Watts
Shepard Hoban Duffy

Manager Bucko

**Stuttgart88** · 18/10/2018, 5:44 PM

Originally Posted by seanfhear

Its actually good that McClean is suspended . We know what he brings . Lets look at alternatives .

It's so xxxxing obvious that Stevens is a better wing back. McLean shouldn't be an automatic starter and if he does start it should be in a 442 of sorts or wide of a centre forward in a 433.

**Drumcondra 69er** · 18/10/2018, 9:28 PM

https://afalsefirstxi.blogspot.com/2...slaughter.html

Latest thoughts on Tuesday for anyone who cares at this stage.....

**Stuttgart88** · 19/10/2018, 2:47 PM

Just looking at the 4 League B group tables.

Slovakia are zero points but have only played twice, have two games left to play, GD-2
Sweden are zero points and have only played twice, have two games left to play, GD-2
Norn Iron have zero points, have played 3, but have a home game against Austria. (NI hit the post 3 times in Bosnia, very unlucky not to get something, btw), GD-4
Ireland has one point, and an away game in Denmark left to play - not to mention a poor GD of -4

I'd be inclined to think Ireland is looking very likely to be 4th or maybe 3rd best of the last-placed League B teams.

Is this important though?

I'm confusing myself with the rules and I can't find where samhayden and I discussed things.

There will be 4 Ds in the D play off.
Even if several Cs qualify outright, there'll still be enough C teams for a C play off
If a C team qualifies outright, it'll probably be at the expense of a B team. That means there may be 5 B teams fighting for 4 places so the last ranked B team won't make the B playoff
But there will in all likelihood be no teams to make up an A play off. That means it'll be made up of any remaining B and C teams? But a C league winner can't be in a path with a higher ranked team, so the unqualified C winner will have priority over a B loser?

Is this right?

Stuff it, I think it just means that the non-qualifying B teams will all have a play off spot of some kind.