Don't worry Stutts, I didn't think it was narky, it just tee'd up a joke about how boring and complicated UEFA regulations are that I couldn't resistOriginally Posted by Stuttgart88
There is nothing you posted that supports your scenario quoted below, not the Uefa video and not wikipedia.
In the Uefa video, if there were no teams in league A and 5 teams left in league B,a scenario where it might be better to be ranked last in League B - if all 12 League A teams qualified normally along with 7 League B teams and 1 League C, the other four League B teams would make up the League B play-offs and we would get moved into the League A play-offs along with the League C teams ranked 6-8, currently Scotland, Greece and Montenegro.
the teams 2,3,4 and 5 from League B would be moved up into the league A play offs
and three teams from League C would be moved into the league B play offs to be with the nr.1 B team.
There is no other option.
Last edited by geysir; 21/10/2018 at 10:15 PM.
You're building the League A pathway first, which you're not supposed to do - remember, pathway B must be filled first, which means four of the five leftover teams stay within this pathway and only one moves up - sorry, I gave the wrong Wikipedia link - this is what I was reading when this clicked: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_E...Team_selection
But I just saw something that does change my interpretation - if I'm reading this correctly, any group winner would stay within Pathway B, as I thought. But the remaining Pathway B teams are chosen based on a draw: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_E...ath_allocation
If League B is built before League A and, say there was one group winner, they would automatically be in Pathway B. The three remaining Pathway B participants are still chosen from the other four League B Leftover teams, but based on a draw, not League B ranking - in this case it wouldn't matter if we were last ranked of the 5 League B Leftovers - I would be wrong in that regard but not about the number of teams moved up to League A.If there are more than four teams qualified in a given league, group winners are automatically allocated to that league's path. Then, draw which remaining teams will participate in the play-off path of that league.
However, I went to UEFA's site to see if I could check this and found this quote:
https://www.uefa.com/uefanationsleag...3.html?iv=trueIf a group winner has already qualified via the European Qualifiers, then their spot will go to the next best-ranked team in their league. If a league does not have four teams to compete, the remaining slots are allocated to teams from another league, according to the overall UEFA Nations League ranking.
This implies that the non-group-winner Pathway places will be based on intra-League rankings, which in my scenario would mean that the best 4 leftover League B teams would be assigned to Pathway B (before Pathway A is formed) and that the fifth-ranked Leftover League B team would be the only team moved up to League A, to be joined by the best-ranked League C teams who have neither qualified the regular way nor have already been assigned to Pathway C. This is exactly the scenario I outline
So, reading Sammy's post above it looks like there's still a degree of ambiguity over whether in our scenario of no As failing to qualify but where 5 Bs have failed to qualify, how the 5 B teams are allocated their play-off path. Is it a draw or is it ranking?
Let's assume for simplicity for now that none of these 5 B teams was a NL group winner.
Here are the actual rules:
Article 16 says:
Sixteen teams enter the play-offs, which are played in four separate paths of four teams each, to determine the remaining four teams that qualify for the final tournament.
To determine the 16 teams that enter the play-offs, the following principles apply in the order given:
a. Four play-off slots are allocated to each league from UEFA Nations League D to UEFA Nations League A, i.e. in reverse alphabetical order.
b. The UEFA Nations League group winners enter the play-offs unless they have qualified for the final tournament directly from the qualifying group stage.
c. If a UEFA Nations League group winner has directly qualified for the final tournament, the next best-ranked team in the relevant league ranking (see Regulations of the UEFA Nations League) which has not directly qualified will enter the play-offs.
d. If fewer than four teams from one league enter the play-offs, the remaining slots are allocated on the basis of the overall UEFA Nations League rankings (see Regulations of the UEFA Nations League) to the best-ranked of the teams that have not already qualified for the final tournament, subject to the restriction that group winners cannot be in a play-off path with higher-ranked teams.
The UEFA administration conducts a draw to allocate teams to the different playoffs path, starting with UEFA Nations League D, subject to the following conditions:
a. A group winner cannot form a path with a team from a higher-ranked league in the overall UEFA Nations League rankings.
b. If four or more teams from a league enter the play-offs, a path with four teams from the league in question must be formed.
c. Additional conditions may be applied, subject to approval by the UEFA Executive Committee, including seeding principles and the possibility of final tournament host associations having to be drawn into different paths.
Article 17 says that within each play off path, for the purpose of determining the semi final pairings rank 1 is at home to rank 4, rank 2 is at home to rank 3. A draw also determines which winning semi finalist plays at home in the final.
So therefore if the pairings within each play off path are pre-determined by article 17, the only thing the draw can be referring to is which play off path (in our example A or B) a team plays in.
So "d" above is simply saying that in our scenario it’s the 3 best remaining C teams (of several) that get bumped up. There is no need to look at B rankings to determine which 5 make it, because they all do - but if lots of B teams don’t make it and there aren't enough play off places for them to fill either in the B path or the A path, it’ll only be the best ranked of them that make up any remaining play-off spots in whatever path. This is consistent with the quoted passage near the end of Sammy's post "If a league does not have four teams to compete, the remaining slots are allocated to teams from another league, according to overall NL ranking".
So - what I think this means - it's ranking that determines which teams qualify for the play offs, but a draw that determines which B team goes into the A play off path (with the 3 C teams in our scenario). If a B team is a group winner it must be in the B play off path, so it's not included in the draw. But beyond being a group winner there is no advantage to having a better intra-B ranking as far as the draw is concerned. After all that Article 17 determines the actual match pairings, where ranking does matter. So in our scenario the B team that gets drawn into the A play off path gets really lucky. It'll have a home semi final against a C team.
Anyway, my interpretation has been consistently wrong (or less than fully right!) so I expect to be overruled again!
If my interpretation is right - and in this particular scenario - we'll have to wait until this draw is made until we know what our intra-B ranking is for the purpose of Article 17. If we're not lucky enough to get drawn to play a C team (at home) we'd need to be lucky enough to be 1st or 2nd ranked of the others if we assume that playing at home is an advantage - a big if in our case!
Last edited by Stuttgart88; 22/10/2018 at 2:57 PM.
One thing is for certain, if we are not 100% sure how this process works, then the FAI have 0% understanding of it
I think all they need to know for now is that as long as no more than 8 As and Bs don't make a balls of qualifying we'll have a play off to fall back on.
Maybe a better way of looking at what Articles 16 and 17 say is to assume this marginally less complicated scenario:
• If 2 As fail to qualify (therefore 10 do)
• If 7 Bs fail to qualify (therefore 5 do)
• No Ds have qualified
• Therefore 5 Cs must have qualified
• Let’s say 3 of these 5 Cs were group winners and one C group winner didn’t qualify
What happens?
• 9 As and Bs haven’t qualified so the lowest ranked B team doesn’t even get a play-off spot; only 6 B teams stay in
• The 4 D group winners go into the play-off; 1 plays 4, 2 plays 3
• The only remaining C group winner goes into the C play-off along with the 3 next best ranked C teams; 1 plays 4, 2 plays 3
• The B play off is made up of all B teams, and any B group winner must be in the B play off
• The A play off will have 2 A teams and 2 B teams.
• If all 4 of the B play-off teams was a group winner they all make up the B path; 1 plays 4, 2 plays 3.
• The other 2 B teams get bumped up into the A play off
• But if, say, only 1 of the B teams was a group winner, a draw is then made among the remaining 5 B teams to determine which 3 remain in the B play-off path and which 2 go up to the A play off
• Within the B play-off path, the rankings determine who plays who (1v4, 2v3)
• Within the A play off path the rankings determine who is 1,2, 3 and 4 and the semi-final pairings are determined accordingly
Last edited by Stuttgart88; 22/10/2018 at 1:25 PM.
What an absolute skull f*ck of a thing, don't they know there are people still struggling with the away goals rule, never mind the likes of this.
YES!!! YES!!! That's it! I was thinking of team selection and assignment as one function - but I think your interpretation is right - team selection is done based on ranking, when there aren't four group winners or four teams left in a League. But then the non-group-winners of the League(s) with extra teams selected (likely B, maybe C) go through a draw to decide which team(s) stay in that League's pathway and which get moved into the upper League's Pathway. If that is the case, then I was wrong in my scenario to say that the worst-ranked League B team would automatically gain the benefit of moving up to Pathway A to face teams from League C - any one of the five (as long as they aren't a group winner) could be moved up.
As a precursor to the Quantum Mechanics course ! Just as an ability tester .
One of my happiest moments in my 14 years posting on this site
Sorry Stutts, there is no draw to determine which team is elevated into another league play offs, the Uefa sanctioned video demonstrates clearly that the rankings at the end of the nations league are considered to be 100% viable for the play offs and in the example of 5 teams left in B and none in A, the teams 2 to 5 from league B would move up to league A play offs, leaving the top B team to face 3 C league teams in the league B play offs.
This is the only realistic interpretation of the Uefa sanctioned video about how the format works.
I'd generally pay more heed to the written words rather than a video which illustrates a single scenario - albeit seemingly quite clearly.
In the video the dots appear to be aligned left to right in descending order of ranking with the best ranked dot bumping up to fill a gap. As the words say too.
I wouldn't even be looking for any ambiguity however if there was no mention of a draw. I'd assume your interpretation of the video is correct. And by any objective measure of common sense, it'd be fair that the best B team deserves to play the C teams.
The video doesn't mention a draw so why do the written articles mention it?
Edit: though I don't see how you'd ever need a draw "starting with UEFA Nations League D" given how obvious it is which 4 D teams will be the 4 best, and since Article 17 determines the parings. So what really is this draw?
Further edit: The video and the words just aren't compatible in my opinion.
And all this before we consider what would happen if two host cities are in the same play off path!
Last edited by Stuttgart88; 24/10/2018 at 2:29 PM.
The wording should be:
The D play off path is made up of the 4 best ranked D teams that haven't qualified
The C play off path is made up of the 4 best ranked C teams that haven't qualified
The B play off path is made up of the 4 best ranked B teams that haven't qualified
The A play off path is made up of the 4 best ranked A teams that haven't qualified
If a play off path is incomplete the path is completed by any remaining team(s) (i.e., not allocated a play off path in the manner above) from a lower League in order of ranking (best ranked first)
No group winner can be in a play off path with a team from a higher League (but I think this is tautological - it can't happen if the above rules are followed)
I think this would easily satisfy all scenarios (except 13 D teams qualifying!) according to the principle of the video. UEFA's lawyers aren't thick so if this is what they wanted, they'd have written it! Instead they wrote something else.
Let's say there are no A teams left unqualified. There are 8 Bs left after qualification. Plenty of Cs and Ds. D and C play off paths are made up quite easily.
According to the video the B play off path would be made up of B1-B4, and B5-B9 go into the A play off path because in the video the B play off path is completed first. So this appears to be the key principle, B is completed before A - in both the words AND the video.
In the scenario we are debating (no As, 5Bs), you are assuming (maybe correctly) that B1 doesn't form any part of the B play off path but the video shows B1 being first into the B play off path - albeit in a different scenario.
If I had to put money on it (or a beer in Reykjavik), I'd say the video is a non-binding illustration, the words are what matter and the draw is only really a draw (i.e., random, or what passes for random in Nyon
Let me put it another way:
Your interpretation of the video is morally right and follows sporting common sense: in our scenario B1 deserves to be grouped with the 3Cs
But what is the moral / common sense solution if
- 1A is left
- 5Bs are left and B1 is a group winner (only)
- We need to dip into the C pool to get residual 2Cs?
- "Morally" we think A should play B5, C1 and C2
- "Morally" we think B1 should play a C team
- "Legally" B1 can't be in a group A, so it can't follow the moral principle of playing a C team which it deserves being the best B; B2 would be next in line to benefit from a C semi final, albeit with the disadvantage of being seeded to play an A team next. If instead it's B5 that gets bumped up - as the video suggests - it gets a theoretically easier semi final than if it had been B4
So the clear moral or common sense principle can't be solved neatly: you have an easy semi final but a harder final, or you (potentially) have 2 closely matched ties. Which is better? A is probably out of form, or Iceland!
So this is what I think the draw is in the Articles for. B1 stays in play off path B and A stays in play off path A. Everything else is drawn randomly.
Last edited by Stuttgart88; 24/10/2018 at 5:01 PM.
You will default into that if you are not good enough for European Co-efficient 101.
I think Foundations in Away Goals is a prerequisite for that?
A minimum of 5 years required as far as I know. The best marks on the yearly 'away goals' examination wins the George Hamilton award for high achievement.
The base course in away goals is actually called Away Goals 202.
Because away goals always count double.
AFAIK that is only if you take the course outside of your home college.
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