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Thread: Developing the forum

  1. #1
    Biased against YOUR club pineapple stu's Avatar
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    Developing the forum

    As suggested on the 10000th post thread, I said I'd start a thread on how to increase the traffic a bit on foot.

    I think it's a lot quieter than its heyday - but then so are lots of internet forums. Boards is down 50% since 2011 I think. Facebook, Twitter and Reddit are like the Walmarts of the online world. But I still think there's a place for foot.ie - it's a central place for all LoI and Ireland fans, away from team bias and it's a more sensible place than others in terms of discussion and views.

    But it's a strange forum in a way in that there's a large disconnect between the three main elements - you'll see one set of posters in the LoI section, another in the Ireland section, and then there's a huge number of posters I've never heard of who live in the Junior/Intermediate forums and never come out of there. And there's a relative dearth of new posters, as the Join Date beside everyone will indicate.

    SkStu and DeLorean have posted ideas in the other thread which I'll try incorporate into this - but others fire ahead I guess!

    1) I do think the forum structure is too broad; the forums are too subdivided and as a result they create little enough traction. DeLorean pointed out this from two years ago, but I think SkStu has it spot on - reduce everything down to seven forums. There's a large amount of ghost forums here, but accumulated, they could constitute an active Off Topic forum for example.

    I'd suggest (based on SkStu's suggestion) -

    > Irish football
    >> League of Ireland (incorporating Underage Leagues, the Predictions League, A Championship, and Football History)
    >> National team (incorporating the Fans' Forum, with Archived as a subforum)
    >> Junior and Intermediate Leagues

    > Other Stuff
    >> Other Football (incorporating Other Countries, World Cup, Women's Football, and World League Football)
    >> General Sport Chat (pretty much as is I guess)
    >> Off Topic (incorporating Entertainment, Betting, Technology, Gaming, Music, Travel, Marketplace, TV/Film, and POTM)
    >> Current Affairs (for more serious discussion - though maybe it can stay in Off Topic)

    > Club forums (I think only Longford and Wexford are really used now?)

    > Admin
    >> Support
    >> Rubbish

    2) Mods probably need to be rejigged; many are inactive. Tets does a great job of modding the Ireland forum by and large - particularly with regular updates in it which gets chat going. In the LoI forum, no-one seems to start a thread for the week's matches until late, but when it is started, it gets a fair few posts; maybe Mr A (or anyone!) could look at actively starting a day or two before the games each week?

    3) A social media page - would it just take people away from here? Or would it encourage people to have a look who otherwise wouldn't have stopped by? (Boards has a twitter feed for example) Who'd administer it though?

    4) Has GDPR taken away the possibility of pinging former members and suggesting they pop back?

    5) Sign-up rules - apparently that's a big enough barrier to new members nowadays (on forums in general; not just here). Is it the case that you can't sign up with a Hotmail account here? Would have a look at changing that alright.

    6) Bring back the old foot.ie meet-ups

    There's my two cents - though I'm not sure how to direct new people here outside of word of mouth really.

    Other thoughts welcome!

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  3. #2
    Capped Player SkStu's Avatar
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    just add this here as I deleted it from the other thread...

    In terms of suggestions, I think the following might be good.

    1) remove the thanks/reputation features. Probably wont be the most popular idea but it might be a better way to have people engage in debate and liven things up as opposed to sitting back and "liking" a post. It might also improve the quality of the post and prevent people from fishing for thanks. The obvious thing that you would need to mitigate would be people just saying "agree" or "this" but that could be done through posting rules/minimums/filtering and/or moderation?

    2) reduce the number of forums and (reassign/increase moderation). There is no reason why we have so many subforums. Put the essentials in there - LOI, Ireland, Juniors, Other Football, Sports General and Off Topic (people can post music, TV and politics there). Get rid of everything else. Nobody wants to visit a graveyard subforum, so much energy to get it fired up again and almost impossible once it dies down.

    3) restrict the sign up rules. IIRC I lurked for probably 2 years before signing up as I didn't have a non-free email to use and eventually ended up using my brothers. Its probably still the one of record on here. Sure you will get some additional wums or people running duplicate accounts or Russian bots but if you reduce the forums but keep the same amount of moderators, it shouldn't be too difficult to weed that out early.

    4) Loosen the moderation reigns on things that don't matter. Especially for those who are long term posters. It is stupid the amount of warnings and suspensions I got over the years. Allow a certain amount of ribbing and mild trolling but draw the line at disrespect (which I was definitely guilty of early on). Encourage debate and different opinions - I felt shut down and shut out of the politics forum and had a number of false accusations leveled at me for daring to share a different perspective/opinion and it still bothers me. I don't think that should happen. I think senior posters are the lifeblood of this place and once you start shutting them down, they will continue to leave. Moderate disrespect, promote debate.

    These are just some ideas to consider. I agree with Paul and Stu that the place is dying and needs new blood or a revamp of sorts. It would be a shame for it to continue to die slowly without trying something.

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  5. #3
    International Prospect osarusan's Avatar
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    Older posters drift away from the forum, because that's just what happens.

    Not replaced by newer, younger ones as they are having the same chat on social media instead.


    It's not a problem with this site, it's a shift in perception of the merits of message boards due to the range of alternatives. Not sure what can be done about it. Maybe have an active Facebook page, twitter account etc, to make people aware of the existence of this place.
    Last edited by osarusan; 03/10/2018 at 6:38 PM.

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    Seasoned Pro NeverFeltBetter's Avatar
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    Cutting down on sub-forums a good idea. I don't really see the need for individual club ones. I'd also try and get a handle on duplicate threads, which was something that used to really annoy me. I don't mind the thanks system that much, but I'd be lying if I said I paid it much attention.

    But, like Osarusan above, I think this is one of those things were there is only so much you can do. I personally much prefer this type of online interaction, since I think so many others encourage short, sharp interactions of progressively lesser substance, one of the reasons I've come to despise Twitter and never go near debate on Facebook. But I'm a minority, a lot of fans actively seek that out as far as I can see.

    When I was in college I was a very active user of a society forum, that I moderated for a time and was one of my main social outlets online. When I finished college I still used to stay in touch with people and see what was going on, and then a few years after the newer crowd in charge deleted it all and switched to a Facebook page, citing the lack of uptake from new members for the forum and an effort to keep up with what everyone else was doing. And that bugged the hell out of me, but I quickly realised I was one of the only ones who felt so.

    So, allow me to be the heretic and suggest that if greater amounts of users and more discussion is what you are after, then this forum environment isn't whats going to get it. A Facebook page, moderated appropriately, would be the answer there, even if it wouldn't be to my liking.

    Oh and I signed up with a Hotmail account, if it matters.
    Author of Never Felt Better (History, Film Reviews).

  7. #5
    Biased against YOUR club pineapple stu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NeverFeltBetter View Post
    So, allow me to be the heretic and suggest that if greater amounts of users and more discussion is what you are after, then this forum environment isn't whats going to get it. A Facebook page, moderated appropriately, would be the answer there, even if it wouldn't be to my liking.
    While this is true, I think what I'm asking about is at least having a steady number of users rather than a declining number.

    How did you find about the site? 2012 means you're a relative latecomer.

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    Seasoned Pro NeverFeltBetter's Avatar
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    As I recall I just googled "LOI forums" and this place popped right up. Googling that now brings up, in order the PD sub-forum, an "Airtricity League Banter" Facebook page (ugh), YBIG and then Boards threads (followed by inquires for Letters of Invitation to Uzbekistan if anyone wants advice on alternative travel spots).
    Author of Never Felt Better (History, Film Reviews).

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    Capped Player SkStu's Avatar
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    Good responses all.

    My thoughts on the social media v forum debates is that it will swing back the other way sooner or later. Smart thinking people are ditching the traditional SM outlets for any type of reasonable discourse - Facebook in particular at the moment. I also think that people who really, I mean really, are interested in their footie will want to ditch the SM environment. There is still a place for the forum type discussion - the numbers at YBIG show that (I haven't been there in years by the way and was never active) - I think we can and should try to position this site to be the site of choice for those who want to express their opinions in 140 characters or more.

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    Like the Fonz. Only a dog. Mr A's Avatar
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    It's a funny thing- people always say the internet is mad because of anonymity, but despite people posting under their real names on Facebook the quality of discussion there is usually dreadful, whereas here is is at least sporadically decent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr A View Post
    It's a funny thing- people always say the internet is mad because of anonymity, but despite people posting under their real names on Facebook the quality of discussion there is usually dreadful, whereas here is is at least sporadically decent.
    Are you saying your real name is not Mr A?
    I think the quality of discussion doesn't really depend much on whether there are real names or not. It's probably more to do with moderation (or the lack of) and the attitude of regulars (is there an interest in a decent discussion, or are people only using the forum to vent their anger).

  12. #10
    Coach Poor Student's Avatar
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    I'd second Pineapple's proposed structure but with the added suggestion of having even current affairs under off topic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple stu View Post

    5) Sign-up rules - apparently that's a big enough barrier to new members nowadays (on forums in general; not just here). Is it the case that you can't sign up with a Hotmail account here? Would have a look at changing that alright.
    I am partially posting this just to get my post count past 5 and move me towards not needing to wait for every post to be approved but this point is particularly applicable to me.

    I have read this forum, pretty much daily for years. I've lived in several countries in that time across the world been in many more temporarily but always kept an eye on here to see what is going on in the league and with Irish football.

    I have never been able to register using a "freemail" address - I have even tried very obscure emails to sneak past that but to no avail.

    I don't like having my work email address linked to a football forum. The only reason I have taken the plunge this time is because I am working on a temporary contract and won't even have access to the email I used in a fortnight so I don't really care, but yeah the email thing was the only barrier to me joining this forum years ago, and as I say I've read it almost every day since.

    There are so many methods of verification these days that the ban on "freemail" addresses can surely not still be necessary, especially coupled with the fact that your first 5 days & 5 posts are subject to moderation after that anyway.

    Also I must add that the posts requiring approval before being posted is off putting as well - what is the point of someone joining the forum to engage in a discussion when their posts won't then be approved/visible until several days later, rendering them essentially pointless. It is quite frustrating.

    I don't want to come in on a negative note however folks and would like to counter my relatively minor complaints by stating the site has long been my go to resource for all things Irish football and the quality of discussion is generally the highest I have seen on any football forum and indescribably superior to what you get on social media or from the main stream media (i.e those who are actually paid to cover Irish football).
    Last edited by dahamsta; 05/10/2018 at 9:40 AM.

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  15. #12
    Director dahamsta's Avatar
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    I'm reading this, it'll just take some time to take in and formulate a reply.

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  17. #13
    Director dahamsta's Avatar
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    There's a lot to get through here, so I'll just start at the start and I'll work through it as best I can -- I'll probably get distracted by follow-up posts and responses, so if I don't get to your post or point, please post a follow-up yourself.

    In general I absolutely agree there's a good bit of tidying up to be done, however there are a few of important factors involved in doing that:

    1. Foot.ie runs an old version of vBulletin, and I'm not happy about that. There aren't any current security issues with it, but I'm not comfortable with it and I would much prefer to update to something newer before getting into anything else. We did a test of Vanilla some time ago and that didn't really go anywhere, but we will need to move to one of vBulletin 5, Invision, Xenforo, Vanilla, etc soon.

    2. I run a growing hosting business and that clearly has distracted me from Foot.ie -- I log in every day and approve users and comments, check out the mod forum and my subs, have a general look around, but I'm not super active. I'm willing to invest time (and money) into Foot.ie, but to be frank Foot.ie is both a labour of love and a revenue stream, time in needs money out. I don't need to make a profit, but I do need to cover some of my time.

    3. I'm not averse to change, but I am averse to change for the sake of change. That's why I'm slow to add new forums, slow to delete forums, slow to even reorganise club forums at the end of the year. I'm also heavy-handed with the ban hammer for a reason: football is a contentious area that results in a lot of bickering and childish behaviour, and heavy-handedness has kept Foot.ie in business for more than a decade and a half. I won't be changing the rules overnight.

    Anyway....

    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple stu View Post
    I think it's a lot quieter than its heyday
    It definitely is, but it's worth adding that Foot.ie's revenue has been pretty static for around 5 years, and while that's not the same as traffic and posting stats - I barely look at them these days - it is a good indicator.

    But it's a strange forum in a way in that there's a large disconnect between the three main elements - you'll see one set of posters in the LoI section, another in the Ireland section, and then there's a huge number of posters I've never heard of who live in the Junior/Intermediate forums and never come out of there.
    That's the main difference, location.

    And there's a relative dearth of new posters, as the Join Date beside everyone will indicate.
    See your own comment above. Signups are about the same as usual.

    1) I do think the forum structure is too broad; the forums are too subdivided and as a result they create little enough traction. DeLorean pointed out this from two years ago, but I think SkStu has it spot on - reduce everything down to seven forums. There's a large amount of ghost forums here, but accumulated, they could constitute an active Off Topic forum for example.
    There's a good few forums that could be archived or merged, Entertainment is a no-brainer for example, but if you're talking about merging some of the forums in your list when you say "incorporating", I think some of the users of those forums might be unhappy about that. Predictions League, for example, which would clutter a parent forum, and Women's soccer, which isn't busy but would likely cause a coronary if I closed / merged it, given the current state of play WRT to feminism, #MeToo, etc. It is also pretty much impossible to close some club forums and leave other active. It just can't be done.

    2) Mods probably need to be rejigged; many are inactive.
    True. I did a long overdue purge a year or two ago, but another would be no harm.

    3) A social media page - would it just take people away from here? Or would it encourage people to have a look who otherwise wouldn't have stopped by? (Boards has a twitter feed for example) Who'd administer it though?
    I have just deleted my own Facebook account, which resulted in the Foot.ie page being deleted. I have also deleted the Foot.ie Twitter account. I'm not engaging with social media any more. It's always been garbage, but now it's dangerous garbage.

    4) Has GDPR taken away the possibility of pinging former members and suggesting they pop back?
    Not really, however I would only send a newsletter if there was something substantial to announce, i.e. many of the suggestions here PLUS a notable update to the site / software.

    5) Sign-up rules - apparently that's a big enough barrier to new members nowadays (on forums in general; not just here). Is it the case that you can't sign up with a Hotmail account here? Would have a look at changing that alright.
    As I mentioned earlier, signups are fairly static, you're just not seeing them because they're mostly going to the Junior forums. The signups hurdles were designed to keep spammers and trolls off the forum, and I don't think anyone can argue that it's not working. If I remove them, traffic will probably go up but the signal-to-noise ratio will go back to the way it was. Is that really what you want?

    6) Bring back the old foot.ie meet-ups
    That's really up to you guys, all I ever did with those was sponsor them, sometimes.

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  19. #14
    Biased against YOUR club pineapple stu's Avatar
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    Cheers Adam! It shouldn't be forgotten in all this of course that there's a rake of work (and money) that goes into keeping the site on the road. I can't imagine you thought back in 2001 it'd still even be going today!

    I think strict moderation was generally taken as a positive of here; it's easy to get to a stage like on boards.ie where a Liverpool fan can barely post in the Man Utd thread without it going to pot. Though that said, I think those of us who are here a while know the rules and tend to get away with a little bit more.

    Yes, by "incorporating", I meant merging alright. I agree the club forums can't be merged anywhere; I'd probably move them down to the bottom of the main page though just to put the more active forums - Ireland; Off Topic - to the top. Predictions League point is probably valid alright. I actually think merging Women's Football with the main football forum would give it a bigger profile; if it's a dead forum, no-one checks anyway, so no-one posts about it.

    I wonder is there anything to be said for an amnesty for (selected) banned members? I don't even know how that'd work; if it's even possible to get a list of banned members, or banned members with more than 1000 posts. Sure, they were banned for a reason, but maybe some would be ok on return.

    Is it worth posting a link in the LoI forum, Ireland forum and Junior forums here to generate a bit of talk? I use the "New Posts" feature, but I think others just go straight for the one forum instead and mightn't see this?

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  21. #15
    First Team The Fly's Avatar
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    I think most forums require a busy 'Other Stuff' section to remain healthy and relevant. It's topics like current affairs, entertainment and the like that provide the binding agent for members beyond their narrower interest in the forum's central concern....and Irish club football is a narrow interest indeed.

    The 'Other Stuff' section on foot.ie is in a poor state, which is a pity because when a subject of interest comes up, in Current Affairs say, the standard of debate is quite high. My memory may be playing tricks on me but I recall it having a much greater level of engagement in the past. The division of the Entertainment section into sub-forums is also unnecessary in my view.

    Lastly, I've got no interest in Irish club football and have only visited the League and Clubs sections of the site a handful of times since becoming a member so the following doesn't apply to me, but, is it necessary to have such a small forum subdivided into so many sections?
    Last edited by The Fly; 07/10/2018 at 10:49 PM.

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    Director dahamsta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple stu View Post
    Cheers Adam! It shouldn't be forgotten in all this of course that there's a rake of work (and money) that goes into keeping the site on the road. I can't imagine you thought back in 2001 it'd still even be going today!
    Meh, I appreciate the thought but it's less work than you think, and running a hosting company reduces the cost of hosting. I probably break even in terms of time and money, it's not that big a deal. I like supporting the community, even if football isn't my thang.

    I think strict moderation was generally taken as a positive of here; it's easy to get to a stage like on boards.ie where a Liverpool fan can barely post in the Man Utd thread without it going to pot. Though that said, I think those of us who are here a while know the rules and tend to get away with a little bit more.
    Yes, and that's precisely why I'd like to stay as it is. The rules are all reasonable, they're applied even-handedly, with a blind eye turned when needed. They're not the problem. If there is a problem, and I'm not sure there is a major problem, it's stagnation.

    Yes, by "incorporating", I meant merging alright. I agree the club forums can't be merged anywhere; I'd probably move them down to the bottom of the main page though just to put the more active forums - Ireland; Off Topic - to the top.
    I'm going to start moving / merging / deleting this week, but OT above Clubs doesn't seem right to me.

    Predictions League point is probably valid alright. I actually think merging Women's Football with the main football forum would give it a bigger profile; if it's a dead forum, no-one checks anyway, so no-one posts about it.
    On any other forum, if you suggested that, you would be accused of misogyny, outed on Twitter as a potential rapist, and hashtagged #metoo for the rest of your life. Which highlights the problem that there are very few women on Foot.ie, which is a shame. Foot.ie is a #safespace!

    I wonder is there anything to be said for an amnesty for (selected) banned members? I don't even know how that'd work; if it's even possible to get a list of banned members, or banned members with more than 1000 posts. Sure, they were banned for a reason, but maybe some would be ok on return.
    This one's a No anyway. Bans are not handed out lightly on Foot.ie, they're rarely doled out unless you have 10 or more warnings. I'm sure there have been a few I've banned because they were being way, way too cheeky just to me, but they're few and far between and I'm not going looking for them.

    Is it worth posting a link in the LoI forum, Ireland forum and Junior forums here to generate a bit of talk? I use the "New Posts" feature, but I think others just go straight for the one forum instead and mightn't see this?
    Work away, I have no problem with that.

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  24. #17
    Director dahamsta's Avatar
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    The Entertainment forums have been merged now. The Tech forum has been merged into OT.

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  26. #18
    Director dahamsta's Avatar
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    Clubs has been moved to the bottom of the football forums now, Ireland has been moved below League.

    Does Marketplace get merged into Off Topic?

    Where does A Championship go?

    Do the Other Club get deleted, or do I create an Archive section at the bottom?

  27. #19
    Seasoned Pro NeverFeltBetter's Avatar
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    In terms of the future of the forum medium and sustainability, I can't help but link to today's announcement that the Cracked.com forums will be closing their doors later this month: http://forums.cracked.com/viewtopic....3503d#p3092503

    That forum actually predates Cracked by nearly a decade, starting life as the discussion board for the now long lost pwot.com comedy site. It's been around for just about 20 years, and has millions of posts, but the few regulars left aren't enough to justify its continued existence. I suppose my somewhat maudlin point being that everything comes to an end eventually.

    Does anyone on here use Reddit? I've largely steered clear, but have been considering signing up recently.
    Author of Never Felt Better (History, Film Reviews).

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    First Team IsMiseSean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dahamsta View Post
    Where does A Championship go?
    The A Championship doesn't exist anymore. It could be deleted or archived.

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