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Thread: Wales V Republic of Ireland - Cardiff - 6th September 2018 - UEFA Nations League

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    International Prospect mypost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul_oshea
    mypost should we get trap back. YOu went very quiet for a long time after the dour, drab, uninspiring, loathsome horrible football we played under trap, when the more knowledgeable few of us on here were wanting him gone a long time.

    I didnt think Trap was a failure according to you, so why is it now every manager since 2002 about not having the players, i really only remember that starting under Trap, or at least only ever mentioned more than once.

    Interesting your 3rd paragragph given what i just said above. I thought we just played practice first 11 v anyone else matches under trap in training, didnt realise we actually did any. It certainly didn't show on the pitch.
    When Trap was here, the team were fully trained and prepped, so the "little details" were sorted before they reared their head on matchday. While the team would be announced well before ko, so everyone knew in advance what their role was. We got to our first tournament in 10 years with Trappoball, won our first trophy in 25 years, and were unbeatable away from home until the very last game, while most losses were against world class sides, European/World Finalists and Champions. Not Wales, Serbia, and Denmark.

    When things did go wrong, Trap trotted out the line about the lack of players, as did Kerr and Staunton before him. Like I said, the players are there ready to go and give everything they have for Ireland, if we look hard enough for them. But if Kerr didn't, then those after him were certainly not willing to either. They all want a certain type of player to do a specific job, and that by itself, limits our options. But it's a management decision, not a lack of players.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuttgart88 View Post
    But if any of the 16 group winners also qualifies automatically by virtue of a 1st or 2nd place in the main qualification groups, then the play-off teams are determined by Nations League performance.

    Nations League: finishes March 2019. Each division has a semi final (4 teams) and a final (2 teams obviously)
    Normal qualifying: 10 groups, 20 qualification places (out of 24 in total). Top 2 in each group qualify. 4 teams must qualify via what used to be the play offs.
    These "play offs" in March 2020 are a series of semi-finals (one leg each) and finals. It's very likely that actual qualifiers from the traditional route will have been among the division semi-finalists and finalists in the actual Nations Leasgue in March 2019, so a new set of divisional semi-finals will be arrived at, via "ranking" which I think means by looking across the 4 groups who has most points, then GD, GS etc.

    So:
    Winning or having a good run in the NL Division B would by itself be a nice thing but winning Division B also guarantees a play-off semi final as back-up for not qualifying automatically
    Doing well in NL Division B is useful because you accrue ranking points which are used to seed the actual European Qualification draw
    Doing well in NL Division B is also useful because it maximises your chance of a March 2020 play-off if you're lucky enough to see your group winner qualify automatically

    Edit, I changed a bit of above and now adding:

    UEFA:
    (1) If a group winner has already qualified via the European Qualifiers, then their spot will go to the next best-ranked team in their league (so not group)

    (2) If a league does not have four teams to compete, the remaining slots are allocated to teams from another league, according to the overall UEFA Nations League ranking."

    What I think (1) is saying if that in League B (our league) any group winner that qualifies automatically is taken out of the possible play-off equation. So across all 4 groups in league B another team is bumped up based on looking across all 4 groups and seeing which team has got most points, then GD etc. So even if we come 3rd but Denmark and Wales qualify automatically then their spots will go to the two teams with most points in all of the 4 League B groups. It's unlikely this would be a back-door route for Ireland.

    But I'm a bit unsure of what happens in (2) above if, say, League A does not have 4 teams to form a play-off semi-final, i.e., all 12(?) qualify automatically? Does this open up more places from League B, and so on down the chain? I think so, and it'd suggest to me that finishing second in any group in League B would very likely get you a play-off place because you'd have to think most of the 12 League A teams will qualify automatically and most of the remaining 8 automatic places will come from League B. So you only have to be in the top 4 of the remaining League B teams.

    I haven't seen the video.
    This is what i've said in a couple of sentences above.

    I am convinced its purposely vague. Watch the video as well it makes it even more vague. There is absolutely no mention of a march 2019 or june 2019 playoff as you suggested.

    The more i learn about it, the less i understand

    Edit:just saw sammys post, need to re-read it, think he's missed something.
    Last edited by paul_oshea; 14/09/2018 at 1:39 PM.
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  3. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by mypost View Post
    When Trap was here, the team were fully trained and prepped, so the "little details" were sorted before they reared their head on matchday. While the team would be announced well before ko, so everyone knew in advance what their role was. We got to our first tournament in 10 years with Trappoball, won our first trophy in 25 years, and were unbeatable away from home until the very last game, while most losses were against world class sides, European/World Finalists and Champions. Not Wales, Serbia, and Denmark.

    When things did go wrong, Trap trotted out the line about the lack of players, as did Kerr and Staunton before him. Like I said, the players are there ready to go and give everything they have for Ireland, if we look hard enough for them. But if Kerr didn't, then those after him were certainly not willing to either. They all want a certain type of player to do a specific job, and that by itself, limits our options. But it's a management decision, not a lack of players.
    We also never beat Wales/Germany/Italy or Austria, but did get beaten by them. Any right minded football supporter, not just a right minded Ireland football supporter would have Oneill over trap any day of the week.
    I'm a bloke,I'm an ocker
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    Quote Originally Posted by mypost View Post
    When Trap was here, the team were fully trained and prepped, so the "little details" were sorted before they reared their head on matchday. While the team would be announced well before ko, so everyone knew in advance what their role was. .
    Including the opposition
    Folding my way into the big money!!!

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    Seasoned Pro jbyrne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fixer82 View Post
    Including the opposition
    exactly, and this was used as a stick to hit Trap with at the time.

    I don't get all the fuss over MON not naming the team until an hour or two before KO. many managers have the same policy including Alex Ferguson...... how did he get on??!
    Id say 8 or 9 of our players are sure they are playing well in advance of the game.

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    If we'd beaten Denmark and got to the world cup people would be saying his naming of the team just before KO was a masterstroke.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mypost View Post
    When Trap was here, the team were fully trained and prepped, so the "little details" were sorted before they reared their head on matchday. While the team would be announced well before ko, so everyone knew in advance what their role was. We got to our first tournament in 10 years with Trappoball, won our first trophy in 25 years, and were unbeatable away from home until the very last game, while most losses were against world class sides, European/World Finalists and Champions. Not Wales, Serbia, and Denmark.

    When things did go wrong, Trap trotted out the line about the lack of players, as did Kerr and Staunton before him. Like I said, the players are there ready to go and give everything they have for Ireland, if we look hard enough for them. But if Kerr didn't, then those after him were certainly not willing to either. They all want a certain type of player to do a specific job, and that by itself, limits our options. But it's a management decision, not a lack of players.
    Trap was a disaster, the man had at his disposal the following players and most of them in their prime:
    Shay Given, Richard Dunne, John O'Shea, Wes, James McCarthy James McClean, Robbie Keane, Damian Duff, Seamus Coleman, Steve Finnan, Andy Reid , Steven Reid, Aiden McGeady etc
    Martin O'Neill has had nowhere near that kind of fire power

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    Quote Originally Posted by jbyrne
    I don't get all the fuss over MON not naming the team until an hour or two before KO. many managers have the same policy including Alex Ferguson...... how did he get on??!
    Id say 8 or 9 of our players are sure they are playing well in advance of the game.
    They don't though, and that's the problem.

    There's no problem with announcing the team publicly an hour before ko. There is a problem when the players dont know who will play, who they'll play with, and how they'll play until the team is announced an hour before ko.

    MON says it's to stop players leaking details of the team and going onto social networks about it, ala McClean, until he has to announce it, but it's impossible for the players to prepare properly.

    Quote Originally Posted by paul_oshea
    We also never beat Wales/Germany/Italy or Austria, but did get beaten by them. Any right minded football supporter, not just a right minded Ireland football supporter would have Oneill over trap any day of the week.
    If you offered most right minded football fans if they would like to have one of the most successful coaches in history, who has won everything and the kitchen sink in the game, or someone who won the English league cup 20 years ago against Tranmere and Middlesbrough, I think their choice would be obvious any day of the week.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diggs246 View Post
    Trap was a disaster, the man had at his disposal the following players and most of them in their prime:
    Shay Given, Richard Dunne, John O'Shea, Wes, James McCarthy James McClean, Robbie Keane, Damian Duff, Seamus Coleman, Steve Finnan, Andy Reid , Steven Reid, Aiden McGeady etc
    Martin O'Neill has had nowhere near that kind of fire power
    at most 1 of those was in their prime. most were either near the end of their best days (duff, keane, given, oshea, finnan, 2 reids) and others were only getting started internationally (mcclean, mccarthy)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diggs246 View Post
    Trap was a disaster, the man had at his disposal the following players and most of them in their prime:
    Shay Given, Richard Dunne, John O'Shea, Wes, James McCarthy James McClean, Robbie Keane, Damian Duff, Seamus Coleman, Steve Finnan, Andy Reid , Steven Reid, Aiden McGeady etc
    Martin O'Neill has had nowhere near that kind of fire power
    Finnan had retired when Trapattoni took over, and only came back to play one game under the Italian. Steven Reid was constantly injured as well.

    How many games were all all those players available for?
    All goals, yellow and red cards tweeted in real time: http://twitter.com/irish_abroad and posted to facebook: https://www.facebook.com/irishfootballstatisics

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    Andy Reid and Wes were available for all of them

    McGeady was picked for all of them and got merciless abuse from many fans/watchers throughout.

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    Trap was like Mike Bassett. No matter who we were playing - 4, 4, f**king 2!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by tetsujin1979 View Post
    Finnan had retired when Trapattoni took over, and only came back to play one game under the Italian. Steven Reid was constantly injured as well.

    How many games were all all those players available for?
    Trap fell out and retired both of them. Steven Reid nearly sued him for saying his pro career was over, due too injury whilst he was in contract negotiations with West Brom. He played on as a premiership player until 2014

    Finnan came out of retirement to be retired by him by not picking him

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    Quote Originally Posted by jbyrne View Post
    at most 1 of those was in their prime. most were either near the end of their best days (duff, keane, given, oshea, finnan, 2 reids) and others were only getting started internationally (mcclean, mccarthy)
    He was appointed in 2008 for the 2010 Wc
    duff, keane, given, oshea, dunne were all in their prime

    By 2012 Mclean, McCarthy*, Wes and coleman all should have started

    *Pulled out due dad health, but wouldn't have started or played due to the"mentality" of trap

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diggs246 View Post
    He was appointed in 2008 for the 2010 Wc
    duff, keane, given, oshea, dunne were all in their prime

    By 2012 Mclean, McCarthy*, Wes and coleman all should have started

    *Pulled out due dad health, but wouldn't have started or played due to the"mentality" of trap
    traps 2010 wc campaign was very good. home and away draws against wc holders italy and played france off the pitch in away play off.

    coleman had a dreadful 2011 / 12 season and was no where playing well enough to justify selection.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jbyrne View Post
    traps 2010 wc campaign was very good. home and away draws against wc holders italy and played france off the pitch in away play off.

    coleman had a dreadful 2011 / 12 season and was no where playing well enough to justify selection.
    I was talking about the level of player available to trap and what O'Neill has imo trap didnt do enough over three campaigns with the talent available to him

    Coleman was nominated for the PFA young playerof the year 2011

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    Quote Originally Posted by jbyrne View Post
    traps 2010 wc campaign was very good. home and away draws against wc holders italy and played france off the pitch in away play off.

    coleman had a dreadful 2011 / 12 season and was no where playing well enough to justify selection.
    It wasn’t that great. We threw away a late lead to Italy so easily (O’Shea’s fault, not Trap’s), we were poor against lesser opponents but we ground out results. We played some awful stuff but yes, we got through to playoff which was the desired result.

    I remember Steven Reid bossing the opening game against Georgia and Whelan getting a jammy goal to win it.

    Andy Reid came on as a late sub and then it all kicked off that night in the hotel bar.

    We weren’t great at all under Trap but players knew their roles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by paul_oshea View Post
    This is what i've said in a couple of sentences above.

    I am convinced its purposely vague. Watch the video as well it makes it even more vague. There is absolutely no mention of a march 2019 or june 2019 playoff as you suggested.

    The more i learn about it, the less i understand

    Edit:just saw sammys post, need to re-read it, think he's missed something.
    It's not really what you said above!

    Actually it's June 2019, my bad. I was relying on my failing memory having read it about 2 weeks ago. It is clear in the text.

    https://www.uefa.com/uefanationsleag...d=2079553.html

    "For the UEFA Nations League Finals, the group winners of UEFA Nations League A will play in a knockout format (semi-finals, third-place match and final) in June 2019 to become the UEFA Nations League winners. One host country will be formally appointed by the UEFA Executive Committee in December 2018 from one of the nations competing in the final four. Italy, Poland and Portugal (all in Group A3) have expressed interest.

    The play-off matches will be staged in March 2020 (see below)."

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    There's a statute book governing the competition rules:

    https://www.uefa.com/MultimediaFiles...AD.pdf?iv=true

    Article 18 League and overall rankings

    18.01 Individual league rankings are established according to the following criteria, in
    the order given:

    a. position in the group;
    b. higher number of points;
    c. superior goal difference;
    d. higher number of goals scored;
    II – Competition System 15
    e. higher number of away goals scored;
    f. higher number of wins;
    g. higher number of away wins;
    h. lower disciplinary points total based only on yellow and red cards received
    (red card = 3 points, yellow card = 1 point, expulsion for two yellow cards in one match = 3 points);
    i. position in the UEFA national team coefficient rankings (see Annex D.1.2).
    18.02 In order to rank teams in leagues composed of different sized groups, the following procedure applies:
    a. The results against fourth-placed teams are not taken into account for the purposes of comparing teams placed first, second and third in their respective groups.
    b. All results are taken into account for the purposes of comparing teams placed fourth in their respective groups.
    18.03 For the purposes of the European Qualifiers group stage draw and the European Qualifiers play-offs (see Regulations of the UEFA European Football Championship), overall UEFA Nations League rankings are established as follows (see Annex C):
    a. The 12 League A teams are ranked 1st to 12th according to their league
    rankings.
    b. The 12 League B teams are ranked 13th to 24th according to their league rankings.
    c. The 15 League C teams are ranked 25th to 39th according to their league rankings.
    d. The 16 League D teams are ranked 40th to 55th according to their league rankings.
    Last edited by Stuttgart88; 15/09/2018 at 9:45 AM.

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    And probably also of note because Paul was asking if the Poland result was of any consequence.

    Annex D – UEFA National Team Coefficient Ranking System

    D.1.1 Matches taken into consideration
    All national senior team matches played in UEFA European Football Championship and FIFA World Cup qualifying competitions and final tournaments are taken into consideration. Friendly matches do not count.

    This was only important in the draw for edition 1 (which has happened already). From now on in the Leagues are determined by the outcome of the previous edition. But it also counts towards seeding for the main qualification group draw.

    "For the purposes of the European Qualifiers group stage draw and the European Qualifiers play-offs (see Regulations of the UEFA European Football Championship), overall UEFA Nations League rankings are established as follows (see Annex C):
    a. The 12 League A teams are ranked 1st to 12th according to their league
    rankings.
    b. The 12 League B teams are ranked 13th to 24th according to their league rankings.
    c. The 15 League C teams are ranked 25th to 39th according to their league rankings.
    d. The 16 League D teams are ranked 40th to 55th according to their league rankings."

    So it doesn't look like the Poland game was of any consequence as far as UEFA competition is concerned. It probably affects our FIFA ranking, and as far as I know, the qualification seeding process for WC 2022 hasn't been published yet.

    It also looks like the UEFA National Team Coefficient Ranking has no consequence beyond the now historic calculation of the seedings for the current Nations League, or - in a highly unlikely scenario - in determining the relative overall NL ranking of two teams tied on every possible criterion, including yellow and red card count.
    Last edited by Stuttgart88; 15/09/2018 at 5:11 PM.

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