Glentoran

[Dunny]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/foot...sh/9117321.stm

[Martinho II]

its a sad state of affairs with glentoran.. I didn't realise that the situation is grim.. Wheres Dean Fitzgerald nowadays?

[outspoken]

A friend of mine on fb posted a picture saying lets all save glentoran together I thought it might have been from a while back but after reading this i now know different it would be a major major blow to football in NI

[Rasputin]

So the LOI clubs arent alone in over reaching itself on this island.

[third policeman]

All the more reason why domestic soccer in Ireland requires a very radical rethink and restructure. There is potential to sustain commercially and competitively successful clubs in Ireland, but there is insufficient population (and therefore revenue) to support the current IL and LOI system. I think we need to think beyond simple merger and even consider a Scottish / Irish league. It saved rugby. Of course the current clubs would oppose a system that would demand merged and new clubs, but they cannot carry on defending a structure that is slowly strangling them and clearly unsustainable. It will take more than good intentions and a few fund raisers to save Glentoran. They are one of the great institutions of Irish soccer, but that's not enough to guarantee survival.

[ifk101]

All the more reason why domestic soccer in Ireland requires a very radical rethink and restructure. There is potential to sustain commercially and competitively successful clubs in Ireland, but there is insufficient population (and therefore revenue) to support the current IL and LOI system. I think we need to think beyond simple merger and even consider a Scottish / Irish league. It saved rugby. Of course the current clubs would oppose a system that would demand merged and new clubs, but they cannot carry on defending a structure that is slowly strangling them and clearly unsustainable. It will take more than good intentions and a few fund raisers to save Glentoran. They are one of the great institutions of Irish soccer, but that's not enough to guarantee survival.

Perhaps clubs should learn to live within their means before they consider your pipe dream.

[Rasputin]

All the more reason why domestic soccer in Ireland requires a very radical rethink and restructure. There is potential to sustain commercially and competitively successful clubs in Ireland, but there is insufficient population (and therefore revenue) to support the current IL and LOI system. I think we need to think beyond simple merger and even consider a Scottish / Irish league. It saved rugby. Of course the current clubs would oppose a system that would demand merged and new clubs, but they cannot carry on defending a structure that is slowly strangling them and clearly unsustainable. It will take more than good intentions and a few fund raisers to save Glentoran. They are one of the great institutions of Irish soccer, but that's not enough to guarantee survival.

Usual nonsense.
Firstly there was enough population to sustain the repsective Irish Leagues just 30 and 40 years ago with crowds of over 20,000.
If anything the population of Ireland has actually increased since then.
So since its not a population thing then the problems must lie else where.
As for your absolutely mentalist suggestion of joining with the scottish and Northern Irish leagues, well thankfully FIFA exist in the real world unlike yourself and that will never ever happen.

[third policeman]

Usual nonsense.
Firstly there was enough population to sustain the repsective Irish Leagues just 30 and 40 years ago with crowds of over 20,000.
If anything the population of Ireland has actually increased since then.
So since its not a population thing then the problems must lie else where.
As for your absolutely mentalist suggestion of joining with the scottish and Northern Irish leagues, well thankfully FIFA exist in the real world unlike yourself and that will never ever happen.

The world has changed a great deal in the last 30 to 40 years, but I would be very interested to see evidence that IL clubs in general were ever getting those sorts of gates. It might be a radical idea, but I would like to hear some viable alternatives to what otherwise looks like a slow process of stagnation and decline. Transnational structures are an absolute inevitability because professional sport is business and commercial imperatives will determine how competitions will develop. This is the "reality" that FIFA inhabits not the nostalgia infused dream world inhabited by the engangered species of IL / LOI diehards.

[ifk101]

The world has changed a great deal in the last 30 to 40 years, but I would be very interested to see evidence that IL clubs in general were ever getting those sorts of gates. It might be a radical idea, but I would like to hear some viable alternatives to what otherwise looks like a slow process of stagnation and decline. Transnational structures are an absolute inevitability because professional sport is business and commercial imperatives will determine how competitions will develop. This is the "reality" that FIFA inhabits not the nostalgia infused dream world inhabited by the engangered species of IL / LOI diehards.

Ask why, understand it and then propose your suggestions/ conclusions. You're doing it backwards - i.e. starting with your suggestions/ conclusions before understanding the reasons Glentoran are in financial trouble and asking why they got into the position they are in.

[Rasputin]

The world has changed a great deal in the last 30 to 40 years, but I would be very interested to see evidence that IL clubs in general were ever getting those sorts of gates.

I really couldnt be arsed digging up sources for you but its well known that the likes of Drums Vs Shams and Cork Hibs vs Cork Celtic would easily bring 20,000 to games.

It might be a radical idea, but I would like to hear some viable alternatives to what otherwise looks like a slow process of stagnation and decline.

Hows this for a radical idea, LOI clubs spend within their budgets, woooow.

Transnational structures are an absolute inevitability because professional sport is business and commercial imperatives will determine how competitions will develop.This is the "reality" that FIFA inhabits not the nostalgia infused dream world inhabited by the engangered species of IL / LOI diehards.

If you want to live in a dream land whereby we copy the rugger bandwagoners and merge Irish and Scottish leagues etc then there is very little I can do to show you otherwise.
But as I stated before thank god FIFA would never ever permit this abomination and as such it will never happen.
We should come back to this thread in ten or twenty years time and see how I was proven right.

[third policeman]

Happy to rendez-vous here in 20 years time, if I'm still breathing. However, I doubt it will be that long before we have some examples of transnational league structures in Europe. This is honestly not meant to be a stupid question, but what exactly is wrong with a model that would raise the standard of Irish soccer enable us to halt the compulsory emigration of footballing talent and improve our international prospects?

Ok I understand your alternative, that teams spend within their budgets, but are you suggesting that this is going to bring back the halcyon days of Cork City v Cork Hibs? Can I also spell out the rather obvious irony, that niether of these clubs exist anymore.

[Schumi]

Why would you think that teams like Hibs, Hearts, Aberdeen, etc. (not even considering the Old Firm) would want to join a league with LOI and Northern clubs?

[citybone]

Happy to rendez-vous here in 20 years time, if I'm still breathing. However, I doubt it will be that long before we have some examples of transnational league structures in Europe. This is honestly not meant to be a stupid question, but what exactly is wrong with a model that would raise the standard of Irish soccer enable us to halt the compulsory emigration of footballing talent and improve our international prospects?

Ok I understand your alternative, that teams spend within their budgets, but are you suggesting that this is going to bring back the halcyon days of Cork City v Cork Hibs? Can I also spell out the rather obvious irony, that niether of these clubs exist anymore.

Incorrect Cork City never ceased to exist in 26 years now.

[third policeman]

Sorry, sloppy typing. The reference was of course to the definitely non existent "Cork Hibs" not to mention the equally moribund Drumcondra.

[Dodge]

Sorry, sloppy typing. The reference was of course to the definitely non existent "Cork Hibs" not to mention the equally moribund Drumcondra.

So in post you call for clubs to merge, then in another you highlight a club that merged and failed.

Nice logic.

[third policeman]

If you are going to appeal to "logic" then I suggest you familiarise yourself with concepts of sufficient and necessary causes. Merger is a necessary condition for viability (ie we have too many clubs for the size of our footballing market / population) but not a sufficient one in that the market itself is too small to sustain commercially and competitively successful domestic soccer clubs. Hence the parallel need to expand the market by merging our league as well. This argument may be factually flawed but the logical consistency is impeccable.

[pineapple stu]

Let's merge every club into one giant one that everyone can support so.

Impeccable logic.

[BonnieShels]

And what do you suggest we call this gigantic unifying all-island club that could fight above it's weight in European and World competition?
Can't think of anything...

:O

[Steve Bruce]

I don't understand the constant groan about people saying this club should join that league and this club should merge with that club and so on.

We all live in small countries, we are never going to be heavyweights in European football and we are never going to command a 5 figure average attendance.

People need to learn to live with that fact and move on and only until this happens, will the clubs run within their means and not get into silly sized debts like Glentoran have.

[Dodge]

Generally speaking Steve, its people who don't have any interest in the clubs that try and think up fanciful arrangements they know will never happen so they can use it as an excuse not to attend games

Most fans of irish football clubs (north & south) just get on with supporting their teams