In fairness I do think there was a plain green flag, sometimes with a harp on it used as a unofficial national flag before this by Republicians...Originally Posted by stojkovic
Will look into it and get back to you..
Dynamo Kerry - did you read that.
So much for your 'pearse and the boys' with their plain green flag - IRA myth.
B@stardising Irish history for your own bedroom nationalism.
You know fcuk all.
In fairness I do think there was a plain green flag, sometimes with a harp on it used as a unofficial national flag before this by Republicians...
Will look into it and get back to you..
I know there was - The Irish Volunteers and Fenians used it.
But Dynamo Kerry's point was that it was used by pearse and the boys and it wasnt. Pearse raised the tricolour above the GPO in 1916 as I have said and you confirmed this.
oh right took you up wrong sorry
You can talk all you like about the orange on the tricolour but in many Unionist eyes it represents the flag of our republic which is by and large up until recently a monocultural and blatantly Catholic state and also an emblem of militant republicanism. Northern Unionists are a seperate identity of both Irish nationalists and mainland British. Many would not want to integrate into an Irish team no more than a UK one. As I said we are two nations in two different states, why would we form one national team? Where else does this happen?
On a point of order, it wasn't Pearse that actually raised it. Myth has it that it was Sean Lemass, the 15 year old.
Reading all this actually would make a good Jonathan Swift book...
You're dead right there Donal.
I stayed out of this arguement because I couldnt give a flying fcuk about the north.
I just came in to point out the usual IRA inaccuracies about flags and the like.
We're in Europe now, so onwards and upwards and leave the bigots to sort it out themselves, I say.
There's a lot of mis-understanding about the people of the North.
1. Northern Unionists feel both British and Irish; they don't see any conflict between the two, whereas Catholic/Nationalists seem to think that they are mutually exclusive, which is untrue. The fact that they can feel some sort of affiliation to their British heritage doesn't, however, bar them from having an affection towards Irishness. It's similar to Irish America; Irish Americans feel proud of America, but equally they are proud of their heritage. Nobody questions their American patriotism, nor do they asks them to abandon their heritage, or tell them to go back to Ireland because their feeling Irish somehow negates their right to be American.
This was true before partition, and before the troubles, and still exists in even today (for example in the way Northern Prods feel happy to let their young men and women represent Ireland in many sports: Rugby, Hockey, Cricket, etc.). This feeling has somewhat been eroded by 30 years of IRA idiots trying to bomb them into submission, but it still exists.
2. For this weekend's game against England, let noone be under any illusion that it will be a "love-in". Northerners love beating England just as much as southerners (or the Scots, or the Welsh). But this doesn't mean that they are uncomfortable living under the same constitutional arrangement as the English (or the Scotish, or the Welsh). God knows people in Cork love beating teams from Dublin in any sport, but that doesn't mean we can't stand living in the same country as them! (the "People's Republic of Cork" notwithstanding)
3. There are many, many people in the North who have been fogotton about, who would instantly say yes to a single Irish international team. Not only have they been forgotton about in the context of who would support this single Irish team, but many apparently proud Irishmen on this board seem content to forget about those unfortunate Irishmen who have suffered the most and who never asked to be part of the UK - this selfish attitude is nothing to be proud of.
Any single Irish international team would be a merger, not one side taking over the other. This domineering trend is a major cause of Ireland's woes. Before southern independence, it was the Protestant elite who thought they owned the entire country. Since then, it has been the southern Catholic side who feel that THEY alone own the entire country (as noticed by many calling the Republic of Ireland international soccer team simply "Ireland"). Neither side is correct. Ireland will not be at peace until we all learn that we must share the country. Unionists must realise that they cannot deny the will of the majority of people, but likewise Nationalists cannot feel they have a veto of whether some people in Ireland also wish to feel and express their Britishness. I'm not even talking about creating a United Ireland 32-county state. Even if NI and ROI existed ad infinitum, everybody must respect the legitimate aspirations of others on this island. Contary to what some may think, there are ways that all can be accomodated peacefully. We must embrace the difference that exists in Ireland (even, or perhaps especially, in the south - which is clearly not a mono-ethnic, mono-cultural society).
As for elroys eight points I agree with them on the most part. I have reservations about points 4, 5 and 6.
4 - I would play an agreed unified anthem at all games (I like Ireland's Call, but I recognise that others don't, so something else). Also Amhran na bhFiann at home games in the south, and a northern anthem at home games in the north (not GSTQ, something that everybody can agree to, like Danny Boy).
5 - Similarly I would have an agreed all-Ireland flag at all home and away games, plus the tri-colour at home games in the south, and a NI flag at home games in the north (not the sectarian six-pointed star and crown one, one that can command the allegiance of all in NI).
6 - I don't mind having the HQ in Dublin but why not Dundalk, Newry, or my own favourite, Derry?
Someone might enlighten me on this - I thought the current tricolour was always intended as a flag of a united Ireland (that it was designed in the 19th century when Ireland technically was united as has been stated here, that would seem to support my view). In this case, we don't need a separate flag for a united Ireland - we already have one. Similarly for the anthem. The unionists may think that both represent the Republicas Poor Student suggests, but they would be wrong and would have no legitimate grounds for offence should either be used. It obviously doesn't help if the likes of Sinn Féin/IRA impart meaning to the flag by wrapping their murderous campaigns in the tricolour every time they can, but ultimately we need opportunites to impart the meaning of a united island to the tricolour and the anthem. Like a united football team playing under the one flag...?
Why not the Sash? Ulster protestant heritage etc. Rousing (unlike Danny Boy) and can hardly be construed as 'sectarian' if song on ALL occasions (home and away) either before or after the Soldier's Song.
Again why not the flags of both teams? This is in reality what we are having. A team that bridges two states and two communities. The NI flag does not need to be changed. Anyone who is offended or considers it sectarian will have the Tricolour as their flag.
What's wrong with Belfast? If the new association was truly democratic then it will reflect the soccer community as a whole regardless of it's HQ's location. And property is cheaper in Belfast. We supply the stadium. You supply the HQ. Bit of give and take is not a bad thing
While I'd agree with the flag, the Soldier's Song can in no way be an anthem of anyone that sees themselves as British lving in Ireland. Putting myself in the shoes of a unionist the song is as sectarian as The Sash is to nationalists.
Finally there is the other option for an all-Ireland team. The FAI reiterates that anyone entitled to an Irish passport (i.e. in this case anyone born in Ireland) will be considered for inclusion should they so wish. No 'targetting' Catholics while 'ignoring' Protestants from NI. If they want to play for us, they can. Contact the FAI here: webmaster@fai.ie . That way we'll keep the anthem, the flag, and noone tears any shamrocksoff their shirts.
This is the cooooooooooooolest footy forum I've ever seen!
Some people here are saying that NI don't have the quality players, but they're only looking at the now. Imagine if we had played together as one team in 1982. In 1982 both NI and the Republic had one of their strongest squads ever, and I think if the resources had been pooled that the team could have gone very far indeed (I'm talking lifting the trophy here). Next time both of our teams have as good players as in 1982 I hope we'll be playing together.
Other countries seem to think we're the same anyway, so we may as well. I was talking to some Spaniards in 2002 and they were going on how they were going to beat us "like 20 years ago in 1982."
As for Amraan na bhfian (or however you spell it) it's only a song, and a ****e one at that. I'm sure we can decide on a new song (not that rugger song anyway, jesus). Something non-nostalgic and rocking that all the other countries will be jealous of.
However, the IFA wouldn't touch Delaney's shower with a very long stick, and rightly so, I would say. So I can't see it happening.
Last edited by brine3; 24/03/2005 at 10:09 PM.
Yes and in 1998 Croatia reached third in the World Cup, imagine how well a combined Yugoslav team would have done able to combine this team with players such as Mihajlovic, Savecevic, Mijatovic, Zahovic etc. So what? It's no reason to mash nations together into a football team.
Well the IFA insisting the Northern Irish team be called Ireland until the 1960's didn't help. Some people still call Serbia Yugoslavia or the Czech Rep. Czechoslovakia. Geo-political ignorance of others is no reason to form a team.
It depends to be honest. Some Unionists define themselves as purely British, some as simply Ulster, others as Northern Irish and a small few as simply Irish.
The reason why partition never took place in these sports because they were for the main part played by Protestants North and South of the border. Just as there is no division in the GAA as it is practically an exclusive Catholic sport on both sides. But what happens with the beautiful game played by both identites? An almost immediate partition. Now I know rugby is played by both identites on the island more now but can you see anyone bothering to go partitioning the teams at this stage? Doesn't mean we should unify the teams just because it works in rugby.
That said there was once a survey done amongst Protestant and Catholic football supporters in the North. They were asked in a competition involving the home nations and the Republic how would they like the teams to finish. Most Protestants gave NI first. They were then split about 50/50 on wanting Eng or Sco second. A majority wanted the ROI to finish last. Seems to indicate a preference for England over the ROI at least and not a major aversion to England.
Indeed but the solution is not an all-Ireland team just so all Nationalists can fall under the one national team.
Very well said. Which is why this is a non-starter. This is why Ireland is not unified. Two nations which cannot come together and share. I say a united Irish state should come before any team. I don't see why this makes sense. Should we have a Basque national team spanning over France and Spain? A Kurdistan spanning several states? But even these are full nations. Ireland is not.
exactly, they did this until they were forced by FIFA to change because both sides used the name Ireland. This shows that at least up until then they didn't define their nationality in a narrow six-county sense.
What you are basically saying is that you can have only one identity, which is untrue. What people are failing to understand is that is possible and legitimate to feel British AND Irish AND Ulster-ish (sic).
Let's not forget who broke away from whom. The Northerners didn't want to divide the Irish international football team, or the league; as noted above this view was true at least until the 1960s, and is almost certainly still the case today (They are the IRISH FA, not Northern Irish FA, their competitions are the IRISH league and the IRISH Cup).
I won't deny that any of this is true, but have you any link or reference to tell us when it was from? I remembered yesterday, after people quoted the poisonous atmosphere in Windsor in Nov '93, that this game took place very shortly the Shankill bomb and the Greysteel masacre, a low point in relations between the communities if ever there was one. I'm pretty sure that relations are better now - any Longford or Shels fans have anything to say on this how they got on with Glens and Ports supporters?
I'm pretty sure you don't understand the complexities of either the Basque nation or Kurdistan.
"...from Erin's isle I came, etc..." I don't mind, I even sing it the odd time to see how people react, but as you say later in you're post, it's viewed as a sectarian song by some, just as Amhran na bhFiann is by others.
Again, fine. I was just trying to point out that we shouldn't just fly the tricolour because southern Catholics think it represents everyone. Parrity of esteem, etc..
No problem. I was trying to counter the domineering leanings of southerners. I just favoured (L')Derry because that's where I grew up, and because both sides could feel comfortable there (The FAI had there AGM there last year, I think).
I think they refused to change from more of an arrogant bitter perspective rather than refusing to narrow the definition of nationality.
No I am not. I am looking at survey results in a book I have 'Explaining Northern Ireland'. The survey choices include being able to distinguish yourself as both Britsh and Irish. An increasing majority of Protestants over time chose British above identites such as Ulster and Northern Irish which entail some sort of a hybrid identity and very few chose British/Irish.
They may not wanted to have divide it then but the manner of the footballing structure is global in outlook now and the very fact they have a team at all in an anomaly. Like rugby they'd have been looking at the game in a more 'home nation' perspective. Just because they insist on holding onto the right to the name 'Irish' league etc. doesn't make them broad in their outlook of nationality. It is a misleading name after all.
The survey was from the book I mentioned earlier. Granted it as from 1991 but still a reasonable indicator of attitudes.
Sorry, why do you assume that?
No they didnt want us to break away from them, but they wanted to keep banging on with 'God save the queen' no catholics allowed and general british attitude.let's not forget who broke away from whom. The Northerners didn't want to divide the Irish international football team, or the league; as noted above this view was true at least until the 1960s, and is almost certainly still the case today (They are the IRISH FA, not Northern Irish FA, their competitions are the IRISH league and the IRISH Cup).
There is no representation of ireland on the british flag, its Scotland Wales and England. It might as well be the Iraqi national flag flying up there.Again why not the flags of both teams?
Appart from the fact that Iraq never invaded, forced people off their land and killed people for speaking their own language...There is no representation of ireland on the british flag, its Scotland Wales and England. It might as well be the Iraqi national flag flying up there.
Waiting from the backlash from the 'know it all's/ I'm right and your all stupid' people on this site tellin me I live in the past...
But its our history that has put us where we are now
Yes there is rodger.There is no representation of ireland on the british flag, its Scotland Wales and England. It might as well be the Iraqi national flag flying up there.
The flag of St Patrick IS represented in the Union Flag.
As I said before, it is possible to feel Irish, without relinquishing Britishness, or 'home nation-ness'.
I am aware of this, but in Interpreting Northern Ireland(1990) by John Whyte, he states that the diminishing number of Unionists who choose any kind of Irishness in surveys can be explained by IRA idiots trying to blow them up over thirty years. In Whyte's book there are surveys showing that before the trauma of the Troubles, many in the Protestant community felt Irish to some extent aswell as British.
As is Football Association of Ireland, why not "Football Association of the Republic of Ireland"?
Because you said they were 'full nations, unlike Ireland'. In fact their situations have share common characteristics with Ireland. In both the Basque and Kurdish nationalities there are many who, as well as feeling Basque or Kurdish, are comfortable living within France (Bixente Lizarazu) or Spain, or Turkey, Iraq, or Iran. Obviously not all feel this way, but as I said the issues are complicated, just as they are in Ireland.
The Union flag has the English cross of St George, the Scottish cross of St Andrew and St Patrick's cross representing Ireland. It's a Red diagonal cross if you didn't know. Created in 1801 when the new union was founded. There is no Welsh emblem in it at all.No they didnt want us to break away from them, but they wanted to keep banging on with 'God save the queen' no catholics allowed and general british attitude.
There is no representation of ireland on the british flag, its Scotland Wales and England. It might as well be the Iraqi national flag flying up there.
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