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Thread: Where might new clubs come from?

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    International Prospect Nesta99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EatYerGreens View Post
    There are no magic beans for Irish club football.
    Well...Dundalk and Rovers while long established brands in LoI have had their few magic beans ie investors that actually do have genuine deep pockets and its not someone playing lets pretend or a land grab; So far so good they havent shipped out yet either, and Rovers got a stadium built for them too!! Its as close as ye get to magic beans in LoI....

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by EalingGreen View Post
    Not so. There are 8 "established" Premier teams - Linfield, Glentoran, Cliftonville, Crusaders, Dungannon, Coleraine, Glenavon and Ballymena.

    Over the last decade alone they have been joined at various times by Institute, Carrick R, Warrenpoint, Larne, Newry C, Ards, Ballinamallard, L. Distillery, Donegal C amd Portadown (10). Now that Newry are sorted, all of those are stable, bar Donegal Celtic(?), with Portadown easily having the potential to become the 9th establishment club, if they ever sort themselves out. (Though tbf, they looked certs for promotion this season until Covid-19 intervened.)

    Meanwhile, Armagh C, Ballyclare, Dundela, the Welders, Limavady, Loughgall and Bangor (7) are all long-established, some have been in the top tier, and each might hope to be the next "breakthrough" club, given time and investment, like eg Ballinamallard and Warrenpoint have done.

    So even if the IL operates at an obviously more modest level than the LOI, it nonetheless has a depth which your league doesn't appear to have. (To me, at any rate - I'm open to correction)
    My point was that outside of those 8 teams you've listed, the other clubs who have gone up to the top tier have all gone back down again fairly soon after. The last club to get promoted and remain there was Dungannon ? Which was after they won the First Division in 2003. That's with a current 12 team top division (it was 16 until about a decade ago ?). Larne will no doubt repeat that feat and stay up for a good while now - but essentially through buying their way into the top level.

    The LOI just feels less of an establishment lock-out than the Irish League. Clubs like Bray, Finn Harps, UCD and Waterford can get promoted and then stay in the top tier for a good few seasons in a 10 or 12 team top league. The only real churn within the IL establishment was Portadown getting relegated for messing up their paperwork, from which they've struggled to return. The last time anyone won the Irish Cup outside of the 8 teams you mentioned was Portadown 15 years ago - when they were also part of the establishment. Prior to that you have to go back to Bangor in 1993.

    Likewise for the league. 41% of all Irish League titles have been won by a single club = Linfield (not including this season). Add in Glentoran and it's 59%. The third most successful club in league title wins hasn't kicked a ball in over 70years (Belfast Celtic). I think the last time a club outside of the IL establishment/aristocracy won the league was Derry City in 1965 ?

    In contrast, the LOI has had all sorts of people winning its league and cup over the last 20 years. A number of them (but by no means all) burned their bank account whilst doing so. Which is essentially my point.

    The Irish League has avoided financial bedlam by clubs not trying to kick start an arms race. But counter-intuitively that lack of money has made it LESS competitive, not more. There has been no Irish League equivalent of Longford Town winning the FAI Cup twice in a row (along with the League Cup) for example, because black swan events just don't happen in the Irish league. Hence why I described it as a lock-out.
    Last edited by EatYerGreens; 11/05/2020 at 5:43 PM.

  3. #123
    Biased against YOUR club pineapple stu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EalingGreen View Post
    "most of... ... potential... ... vaguely... ... some support".
    Not the deepest of foundations to be building a house on, I'd say.
    Yes - but the likes of Drogheda, Galway, Longford, Bray, UCD have all been competitive in the Premier in recent years. UCD aside, you're not talking about adding a Ballinamallard/Warrenpoint/etc with any of those clubs. The FD changes a club to a remarkable extent. Look at Shels in the first few games back this year to see the impact being promoted can have. Add in extra prize money to bolster club budgets and stem the drain of players from the league, and there's no reason to believe any of those would be particularly bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by EalingGreen View Post
    Far from being "debt free", the FAI's debts were €62m at the start of the year, they've already used this years UEFA money as an advance and are relying (I think) on an €18m govt. bail-out just to keep the lights on.
    Well obviously. This was a 2016 document though. The FAI being bankrupt at a time of impending global recession/depression is probably the biggest issue facing the LoI now.

    Quote Originally Posted by EalingGreen View Post
    Further, this thread is asking where new clubs could come from. Cabinteely, Drogs, Longford, UCD, Bray and Cobh are all existing clubs, not new ones.
    I think you're just stating the obvious for kicks now! Yes, those are all existing clubs, in response to a worry that the bottom half of the division would be grossly uncompetitive. I don't think it would be. Where would the new clubs come from? I don't know - and I don't think the idea of saying "Kerry could support a team" is the right way of looking at it. There's much more to the question than just catchment area. But give non-league clubs a reason to want to step up, and you'll find the best candidates will naturally emerge.

    Quote Originally Posted by EalingGreen View Post
    That could only be sustained over a period with major, long-tern investment.
    Agreed. And agreed candidates are short on supply for that - so it has to be the FAI. €2m per year isn't a huge amount out of their budget if (a) they can recoup some of their investment in terms of a small tax on Euro/transfer money and (b) they were run competently, not criminally.

    Quote Originally Posted by EalingGreen View Post
    Think of it in English terms. Championship clubs generally incur huge debts in order to reach the PL, with more while they try to become established. So that just in case they go back down quickly, they need huge parachute payments to withstand the shock. Even then, it isn't always enough, meaning that even big clubs like Sunderland and Ipswich can go down again.
    Your suggested set-up could never hope to have anything like that sort of "safety net", meaning the "step-up" clubs you suggest and/or potential backers simply will not take that chance.
    The figures here aren't comparable to England. €100k, while a boost to clubs which would act as an incentive to step up, isn't as life-changing a sum of money as the Premier League offers. Also, you'd have to set up the second tier to reduce costs naturally - regionalised to reduce travel costs, maybe reduced youth team costs, reduced coaching requirements, a shorter season, etc. It would still be a step up from LSL/MSL to LoI - but that's pretty much what promotion is about of course.


    Quote Originally Posted by EalingGreen View Post
    Which is why I think the only hope of attracting stable, competitive new clubs which will not fold after a few years is by either:
    (a ) devising, implementing, funding and operating professionally an all-encompassing plan for league football in the ROI over, say, the 20 year period necessary to allow new clubs to grow and develop organically and sustainably
    That's pretty much what I was talking about though.

    This isn't an exact science obviously. But it's a setup which would have a clear pathway for new clubs to come through, encouragement for them to do so, and a way back out for them if it comes to it. Right now there's none of that.

    Quote Originally Posted by EalingGreen View Post
    (b ) join up with the IL in an AIL of some sort.
    What's an "AIL of some sort" going to change though?
    Last edited by pineapple stu; 11/05/2020 at 6:21 PM.

  4. #124
    Seasoned Pro oriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EalingGreen View Post
    All fair points.

    As against that, though, I think I'm right in saying a few LOI clubs depend, or have depended upon rich benefactors funding them - eg Derry and Waterford.
    You make some good points EG and appear to be very well on the money with IL stuff, almost reporter-esq stuff such is your knowledge !

    Correct on benefactors for a lot of clubs in LOI, Dundalk are owned by P6 led US consortium, Rovers have investors and soon possibly more from Dermot Desmond, Bohs is a members club, Pats main investors is a developer and so on. Worth noting though before p6 arrived to Dundalk, the club had over 3m in cash, hard earned on the pitch (prob just below 2m now I think, due to 500k spent on the training facilities and issues with the lease + wages shortfalls) - but that's was attracted p6 in the first place, the cash ! How long they stay - who knows, but they seem to be well settled for now, but with C-19 still lurking around?

    Interesting point you made on Glentoran investors !
    Last edited by oriel; 11/05/2020 at 6:43 PM.
    #DundalkFC - First Irish club to win an away game in Europe (1963), first Irish club to win points in a group stage in Europe (2016).

  5. #125
    Seasoned Pro EalingGreen's Avatar
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    To save things getting bogged down debating all the points raised by 'Oriel', 'P.Stu' and 'Eat YG' etc; also to clear up confusion over the definition of "competitive", "established" "stable" etc, it may be better (and quicker!) if I went back to first principles.

    The general view is that with its history, population and economy etc, ROI should be able to sustain a professional league structure nearer in scale to eg Scotland or Denmark than the present somewhat limited set-up - seems reasonable to me.

    But the big problem is that even with the necessary investment and administration etc, where do you get the extra clubs to realise this potential? (See thread title again!). As I see it, the PD currently has 10 clubs which should be up to it comfortably enough, notwithstanding that some rely heavily on wealthy backers and half(?) have gone bust in recent times - some of them more than once.

    But when you look below that to the FD, it seems very patchy to me. Drogs, Bray, Cobh, Wexford and Longford might each be able to step up in theory, but realistically, they're not all going to do so. Cabinteely still have miles to go, UCD have coped in the PD up til now, but in a bigger, more professional environment? Athlone and Galway are basket cases (no offence intended) and then there's Limerick, poor, poor Limerick. (Sorry Gspain).

    And recent experience suggests (confirms?) that looking to new towns or counties with big populations but no LOI clubs or history is even less likely to work - you know the numerous failed attempts better than me.

    Which means that you're stuck with 12 or 14 clubs, 16 at most, to exploit this as yet unrealised potential to expand. And when you consider how few of all of those clubs have avoided examinership and bust over the last couple of decades i.e. potential casualties, that doesn't seem to me to be a big enough pool, frankly.

    Meanwhile, there is a view that the domestic set-up in NI also has potential to expand, just not so far as in ROI (obviously). On which point, I honestly believe that finding a sufficient number of clubs from the existing pyramid will actually pose less of a problem. Referring back to post #112, these can be listed as:

    [A] Already "established" Premier teams - Linfield, Glentoran, Cliftonville, Crusaders, Dungannon, Coleraine, Glenavon and Ballymena (8).

    [B] The "next level", incl clubs which are currently in the top tier - Larne, Institute, Warrenpoint; clubs which are close - Portadown, Ballinamallard; clubs which have been there fairly recently Carrick R, Newry C (7)

    [C] The "outsiders" who with investment shouldn't be absolutely ruled out - Armagh C, Ballyclare, Dundela, Welders, Limavady, Loughgall, Bangor, Distillery and Donegal C (9). These would obviously have a huge way to go, but bear in mind that nearly all are very long-established and own their own stadia, few have gone bust at any stage and most are reasonably secure. They also represent a wide geographical spread.

    Now I'm not saying any of the 19 clubs outside the top five (Linfield, Crues, C'ville, Coleraine and Glens) could hope to win the title any time soon, but there should be enough to be able to expand the present top tier to 12 or 14 clubs at a higher level, without having to fillet the second tier, or compromise the pyramid further down.

    [As it happens, I believe the big threat to expansion is not having sufficient clubs, but the top half dozen clubs going f-t and closing off all the European money, such that the rest cannot prevent from a huge gap opening up, thereby cementing their "2nd class" status permanently. But that's still a way off.]

    Anyhow, the above all suggests to me that combining the top LOI clubs with the top IL clubs in some sort of all-island set up, should provide a far quicker, realistic and achievable way to realise the untapped potential for football in ROI (and NI, obv), rather than the LOI trying to go it alone.
    Last edited by EalingGreen; 11/05/2020 at 10:44 PM.

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  7. #126
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    I agree with your sentiment here EG. That an all-island league is the most realistic way to create the sort of scale and depth that the 2 leagues lack individually.

    Two minor things though. I don't think it's at all fair for anyone to expect ROI to be like Scotland or Denmark. Both those countries have football as their national sport, and by a country mile. Not so ROI - where domestic football is only the fourth-favourite spectator sport. There also the added problem that football is an urban sport and the Republic is extremely skewed to just one urban centre, whereas Scotland (but not Denmark) has a less polarised urban structure. Cork is the Republic's second city, whereas if it was in Scotland it would be only the fourth biggest there. Dundee is halfway between the size of Derry and Cork, yet has sustained two well-supported professional clubs for decades. So I really don't think such a comparison is fair, just because ROI, Denmark and Scotland are all of roughly similar populations.

    And a really minor point : I'd disagree with your analysis of the chances of a few clubs in the north there, but especially Harland and Wolff Welders. I'd say there's no chance of them ever being genuine challengers in the IL. They're the work's team of a company that nearly went bust a few month's back. And their 'stadium' is poor (even if they do hope to redevelop it). Where would they get support from - given that anyone in East Belfast with a connection to the shipyards is probably already a Glens fan, and the shipyard could feasibly close at some future point?

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  9. #127
    International Prospect Nesta99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple stu View Post
    Get rid of daft stuff like county district leagues for each county, two Limerick leagues, clubs switching from LSL to AUL to UCL. It's an utter absurdity of a system designed at generating big fish in small ponds who've no interest in improving. And that can only hinder the game here
    Some serious ambition but liking the positive thinking Stu! Hardwicke FC v Arsenal has a few puns for the back pages but a club called Dublin Celtic FC would certainly get the floating fan ala Dublin City FC especially if they and their Glasgow namesakes make the group stages....

    Im overdue a ridiculously long post sooo.....

    Great thread to read through! Good to get an outside perspective EG so thanks for that and some interesting points all round - this virus must have another symptom of dulling tribal nature of LoI fans on foot.ie . On EG's point of adding 'weaker' clubs to an expanded premier, it in itself would improve competativeness in the lower half of the Premier and could lessen the times that teams get cut loose by 10+ points. For a number of seasons at least, as at some stage clubs that are 1st Division/lower Premier will grow beyond being regular relegation fodder, not ignoring that top clubs can go in to freefall too. But early doors it would be a kind of league within a league of clubs at a similar level, and with that, local interest and media coverage maybe = improved attendances, sponsorship, income - a real opportunity if it is not spurned, could even be a selling point to the belligerent. I see it as all about growth of the game generally, not paring back to smaller and smaller numbers competing at the highest level and doing a local version of UEFA's exclusive, almost invite only policy. An All Island League does seem to be the most obvious and in some ways simplest solution to issues in both leagues. I dont like proposals that have in the past or continue to mooted as solutions to structure - 8 teams? Daft, and if it weren't for the fact that the top 2 clubs werent against it I'd have assumed it was a typical FAI quick fix to the numbers in the first Division.

    I'm not sure that higher running costs of LoI has held back ground improvements as I feel it's more a culture of the league historically, certainly from the 70's and early 80's - if IL and LoI were directly comparable (PT, similar attendances, SCGs etc), I still think the IL would have pulled ahead on infrastructure anyway with LoI clubs generally (I havent forgotten Sligo) tending to prioritise the football side of things. In saying that there is the advantage to having medium to large amounts of government money available in decent tranches like in the Northrather than the piecemeal amounts that are often granted here. What is the largest amount provided to a LoI ground development bar Tallaght as the obvious one? The only only one done properly ie 3 new stands started and finished without bits year on year; Well not exactly like that with the initial build but that is conversely a great example of of the issues created by not fully funding projects from the start with the DoTTS auditing construction and the books at points of progression - protecting the grant, club, and construction company.

    I get a bit irritated when people suggest the merger of clubs citing the rugby example, and there issues with the tried, tested and often failed efforts to establish new clubs in a population centre. With new regionalised 1st Divisions though, it may be possible to form new clubs or incentivise clubs combining at senior level. I know the latter has the high profile attempt in Galway but that was always going to be messy with the one-upmanship nature of that project, but done properly without existing emnity as the driving force behind it and it has to be a possiblity. Wexford Youths could be successful example of a club formed in an unrepresented area!? Look to clubs that have been in senior football and see if there is a way back. Just because something was tried in the past and didnt work doent mean it should never be considered again. To me this sounds too much like the agenda driven rhetoric of people terrified of losing their ego driven, big cheese opinion of themselves, and their need to have something to show off to their cronies - they'd have no other reason to get out the shiny nylon suit they got for their Euro '88 junkets! *I should have included fear of not driving the anti-Irish football agenda of the FAI chief dictator also!

    Some possibilities off the top of the head - if someone knows there is 'no chance' ('all of them' is not allowed!), established junior clubs that could step up or other options i'd be interested in opinions!

    Monaghan, Cavan, East Leitrim (if Leitrim really does exist), Monaghan United could step up again. At underage MUFC and Cavan Schoolboys already combine afaik!?

    Mayo could host a side, Castlebar being the obvious spot but could be a County side.

    Clare-Ennis?

    Tipperary - Thurles Town+Peake Villa could have another go or a club in Nenagh. One side of the family is from Nenagh and I'd love to see both towns have clubs as the rivalry already would have serious crowds out for the derby and both would have the hurls out with them if heading to Clonmel( too close to WFC?).

    Kerry - Tralee or Killarney, where's Legendz when ye need him?

    Kilkenny/Carlow - Kilkenny City back playing senior ball, Carlow's another spot I'm not sure really exists?!

    Laois - Portlaoise. Westmeath - Mullingar Town FC were willing before albeit shafted when A-Champions ship was ditched but could go again. Athlone Town FC are obviously about in the midlands but they are almost like a mythical entity too these days.

    Kildare - Kildare County was tried but this time they'd at least sell out every home game v Dundalk as every (real) Lilywhite would be on a pilgrimage to see the place of the Miracle of Station Road!!!

    and finally Meath - Navan or maybe Trim.

    Yup I know there is a whole lot of 'ideal world' type thinking. There is probably some infringing on existing clubs catchment; I've likely misjudjed the distance between places and are realistically too close to existing clubs to thrive at all, but then again if the smallest county can keep 2 senior clubs alive, if occasionally on life support, its not a definite no!? There are hotbeds of other sports but I dont think that should ever really be a reason just totally rule out a spot. In the commuter belt people could already have their club but some of the natives might be convinced. It's a regular criticism that LoI isnt really a national league but if there was ever a chance to address the inbalance it is via a new regionalised 2nd tier. Considering the size of N.I. and the amount of clubs that have access to the highest level of the game there, we have no excuse in that regard. And apologies if the above sounds like some half assed, hungover homeschooling geography effort...

    All the old nuggets remain of course and need to be sorted - we all know what they are without listing them, so if we are ever able to offer entry to clubs where there is financial gain rather than punitive cost, even if bottom of the heap, then we will have seen real reform of the game in Ireland! We shouldnt have to worry that the greatest resistance to any change will be from within the game as some people cling to being a a big fish in their tiny pond, it's nearly as difficult an obstacle than the FAI's finances! Sadly there might be a place or two available in either division for any takers come next season if there is no consensus is reached on how to restart this season.

    The End.
    Last edited by Nesta99; 12/05/2020 at 4:46 PM.

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  11. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by EatYerGreens View Post
    Cork is the Republic's second city, whereas if it was in Scotland it would be only the fourth biggest there.
    I think that an administration line problem. On paper Cork City admin area is roughly the same size as the Aberdeen equivalent, but if you look at the metro numbers Cork a good bit bigger so would comfortably be number 3 from a catchment perspective. Cork re-drew it’s city boundary last year but due to pushback from the County Council, the City Council didn’t make it as big as they initially wanted.
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  12. #129
    Biased against YOUR club pineapple stu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ealing Green
    But when you look below that to the FD, it seems very patchy to me. Drogs, Bray, Cobh, Wexford and Longford might each be able to step up in theory, but realistically, they're not all going to do so. Cabinteely still have miles to go, UCD have coped in the PD up til now, but in a bigger, more professional environment? Athlone and Galway are basket cases (no offence intended) and then there's Limerick, poor, poor Limerick. (Sorry Gspain).
    Just on this - I don't think Galway are remotely in the same category as Athlone. They're well capable of pulling in crowds of 3-4k for big games. They had solid crowds in their last Premier stint as well. Drogheda are former league champions with a bit of history behind them (albeit funded on air) - and even Limerick drew in ok crowds when in the Premier in 2017, albeit again funded on nothing. But invest in them and the potential is there. UCD were more often than not mid-table in the bigger, more professional environment of the 2000s btw. Bray and Longford are somewhere in the middle - probably never going to be major clubs, but there's enough Dublin cast-offs for them to get by.

    Cobh, Wexford and Cabinteely certainly have a ways to go - yet part of Cabo's problem is that they were dropped into the league six weeks before the start of a new season with no squad, no ground, and no momentum. They needed a good start to build on what seemed to be potential, but were never going to get it.

    And that's the inherent problem with the current system. The question of "Where will the new clubs come from?" is largely redundant while the current system is designed to hinder new clubs at every turn. The A League was even worse - catapult a club into a reserve league below the First Division? It's amazing they got any takers really.

    If you set up a system designed to encourage new clubs to step up, then you are far more likely to find clubs. Again, which clubs those are can't be answered by looking at catchment area - one investor in a regional town could make a difference, or one ambitious and well-organised committee. Edenderry in Offaly got 1,250 through the gate when they played Derry in the FAI Cup a few years back for example. Could they step up? In theory, why not? But the answer won't just be down to the fact there's 7,500 people in the town.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ealing Green
    [B] The "next level", incl clubs which are currently in the top tier - Larne, Institute, Warrenpoint; clubs which are close - Portadown, Ballinamallard; clubs which have been there fairly recently Carrick R, Newry C (7)

    [C] The "outsiders" who with investment shouldn't be absolutely ruled out - Armagh C, Ballyclare, Dundela, Welders, Limavady, Loughgall, Bangor, Distillery and Donegal C (9).
    To be honest, most of these clubs are smaller than the Athlone/Galway/Limerick/UCD you've been dismissive of. I think you're trying to have your cake and eat it here. If those four LoI clubs aren't suitable, then neither are the vast majority of the IL clubs you've listed. If the above IL list is the calibre of club you think is necessary for a league to improve and expand, then the LoI has potentially lots of them in the MSL/LSL and just needs to encourage them to take the step up.

    I've been to Home Park in Armagh for example. A fairly bog-standard small ground with a bar and a bit of a community feel to it. An awful team, from what I recall, and this was in the top flight. But in what way is that really different to, say, Tullamore Town? They also have a bog-standard small ground with a bar and a bit of a community feel to it. Not a great side either when UCD played them in the League Cup maybe ten years ago. But they were in the A League a few years back so had some vague interest in stepping up. But right now, they'd be mad to. And that's the problem.

    So I don't think you just can list of the third tier of the IL and conclude that there's nothing comparable in the MSL/LSL.

    Quote Originally Posted by EalingGreen
    Anyhow, the above all suggests to me that combining the top LOI clubs with the top IL clubs in some sort of all-island set up, should provide a far quicker, realistic and achievable way to realise the untapped potential for football in ROI (and NI, obv), rather than the LOI trying to go it alone.
    I don't think you've really said anything to back this up tbh. I'm in favour of an AIL in general - but Larne v St Pat's isn't going to be a gamechanger for either club. (In fact, given an AIL would likely remove half the European spaces, it would be a nett drain on the league financially. Unless this HyperCube or whoever it was project works out. And that's a long way off)
    Last edited by pineapple stu; 12/05/2020 at 9:23 AM.

  13. #130
    Capped Player nigel-harps1954's Avatar
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    No idea if plans will change with the impending recession, but Mayo (playing out of Milebush Park), Monaghan United, Kerry League and Kilkenny/Carlow, all have signalled plans to step into the league in the next handful of years. All within the underage setup currently.

    With a returning Limerick team, you'd hope we'd see a return to two 12 team leagues.

    Keep those sustainable before looking at any other 'new' teams.

    Nesta gives a fine list of towns above, but I don't think the appetite is really there in big GAA areas. I have my doubts over a Kilkenny/Carlow team ever actually doing anything too. I'd actually go as far as suggesting a Carlow Town team would be much better off than Kilkenny. Much the same size as Kilkenny, football is much bigger there. For a county of it's size, there's about 20 teams in the local league, and it's of a half decent standard too. Problem is, stadium. Carlow IT has superb facilities, but unless they used the GAA pitch with the main stand, there's no decent football ground capable of hosting LOI football.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pablo Escobar View Post
    I think that an administration line problem. On paper Cork City admin area is roughly the same size as the Aberdeen equivalent, but if you look at the metro numbers Cork a good bit bigger so would comfortably be number 3 from a catchment perspective. Cork re-drew it’s city boundary last year but due to pushback from the County Council, the City Council didn’t make it as big as they initially wanted.
    Whether it'd be 4th or 3rd ranking in Scotland - it wouldn't be second. So the point still stands I think. And once you get below Cork, cities in the ROI are really just small towns. The Republic's third largest 'city' - Limerick - is half the size of Scotland's 4th largest city (Dundee).

    There is a broadly uniform rule regarding the relative size of cities within countries around the world, which Scotland follows pretty closely. The Republic doesn't - and is effectively missing at least one city size-wise between Dublin and Cork (I don't think it would be accurate to say that hole is effectively Belfast-shaped either). The Republic has basically urbanised relatively late in its history, and also made no significant attempt at regional balance. It's why the Dublin property market has been such a rollercoaster basket case over the last 20years. The Republic has put all its eggs in that one city/basket.

    With football essentially an urban sport - we'd most probably have one or two more clubs in the LOI if there was another city half-way between Dublin and Cork size-wise.
    Last edited by EatYerGreens; 12/05/2020 at 12:00 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nesta99 View Post
    Some serious ambition but liking the positive thinking Stu! Hardwicke FC v Arsenal has a few puns for the back pages but a club called Dublin Celtic FC would certainly get the floating fan ala Dublin City FC especially if they and their Glasgow namesakes make the group stages....

    Im overdue a ridiculously long post sooo.....

    Great thread to read through! Good to get an outside perspective EG so thanks for that and some interesting points all round - this virus must have another symptom of dulling tribal nature of LoI fans on foot.ie . On EG's point of adding 'weaker' clubs to an expanded premier, it in itself would improve competativeness in the lower half of the Premier and could lessen the times that teams get cut loose by 10+ points. For a number of seasons at least, as at some stage clubs that are 1st Division/lower Premier will grow beyond being regular relegation fodder, not ignoring that top clubs can go in to freefall too. But early doors it would be a kind of league within a league of clubs at a similar level, and with that, local interest and media coverage maybe = improved attendances, sponsorship, income - a real opportunity if it is not spurned, could even be a selling point to the belligerent. I see it as all about growth of the game generally, not paring back to smaller and smaller numbers competing at the highest level and doing a local version of UEFA's exclusive, almost invite only policy. An All Island League does seem to be the most obvious and in some ways simplest solution to issues in both leagues. I dont like proposals that have in the past or continue to mooted as solutions to structure - 8 teams? Daft, and if it weren't for the fact that the top 2 clubs werent against it I'd have assumed it was a typical FAI quick fix to the numbers in the first Division.

    I'm not sure that higher running costs of LoI has held back ground improvements as I feel it's more a culture of the league historically, certainly from the 70's and early 80's - if IL and LoI were directly comparable (PT, similar attendances, SCGs etc), I still think the IL would have pulled ahead on infrastructure anyway with LoI clubs generally (I havent forgotten Sligo) tending to prioritise the football side of things. In saying that there is the advantage to having medium to large amounts of government money available in decent tranches like in the Northrather than the piecemeal amounts that are often granted here. What is the largest amount provided to a LoI ground development bar Tallaght as the obvious one? The only only one done properly ie 3 new stands started and finished without bits year on year; Well not exactly like that with the initial build but that is conversely a great example of of the issues created by not fully funding projects from the start with the DoTTS auditing construction and the books at points of progression - protecting the grant, club, and construction company.

    I get a bit irritated when people suggest the merger of clubs citing the rugby example, and there issues with the tried, tested and often failed efforts to establish new clubs in a population centre. With new regionalised 1st Divisions though, it may be possible to form new clubs or incentivise clubs combining at senior level. I know the latter has the high profile attempt in Galway but that was always going to be messy with the one-upmanship nature of that project, but done properly without existing emnity as the driving force behind it and it has to be a possiblity. Wexford Youths could be successful example of a club formed in an unrepresented area!? Look to clubs that have been in senior football and see if there is a way back. Just because something was tried in the past and didnt work doent mean it should never be considered again. To me this sounds too much like the agenda driven rhetoric of people terrified of losing their ego driven, big cheese opinion of themselves, and their need to have something to show off to their cronies - they'd have no other reason to get out the shiny nylon suit they got for their Euro '88 junkets! *I should have included fear of not driving the anti-Irish football agenda of the FAI chief dictator also!

    Some possibilities off the top of the head - if someone knows there is 'no chance' ('all of them' is not allowed!), established junior clubs that could step up or other options i'd be interested in opinions!

    Monaghan, Cavan, East Leitrim (if Leitrim really does exist), Monaghan United could step up again. At underage MUFC and Cavan Schoolboys already combine afaik!?

    Mayo could host a side, Castlebar being the obvious spot but could be a County side.

    Clare-Ennis?

    Tipperary - Thurles Town+Peake Villa could have another go or a club in Nenagh. One side of the family is from Nenagh and I'd love to see both towns have clubs as the rivalry already would have serious crowds out for the derby and both would have the hurls out with them if heading to Clonmel( too close to WFC?).

    Kerry - Tralee or Killarney, where's Legendz when ye need him?

    Kilkenny/Carlow - Kilkenny City back playing senior ball, Carlow's another spot I'm not sure really exists?!

    Laois - Portlaoise. Westmeath - Mullingar Town FC were willing before albeit shafted when A-Champions ship was ditched but could go again. Athlone Town FC are obviously about in the midlands but they are almost like a mythical entity too these days.

    Kildare - Kildare County was tried but this time they'd at least sell out every home game v Dundalk as every (real) Lilywhite would be on a pilgrimage to see the place of the Miracle of Station Road!!!

    and finally Meath - Navan or maybe Trim.

    Yup I know there is a whole lot of 'ideal world' type thinking. There is probably some infringing on existing clubs catchment; I've likely misjudjed the distance between places and are realistically too close to existing clubs to thrive at all, but then again if the smallest county can keep 2 senior clubs alive, if occasionally on life support, its not a definite no!? There are hotbeds of other sports but I dont think that should ever really be a reason just totally rule out a spot. In the commuter belt people could already have their club but some of the natives might be convinced. It's a regular criticism that LoI isnt really a national league but if there was ever a chance to address the inbalance it is via a new regionalised 2nd tier. Considering the size of N.I. and the amount of clubs that have access to the highest level of the game there, we have no excuse in that regard. And apologies if the above some like a half assed, hungover homeschooling geography effort...

    All the old nuggets remain of couse and need to be sorted - we all know what they are without listing them, so if we are ever able to offer entry to clubs where there is financial gain rather than punitive cost, even if bottom of the heap, then we will have seen real reform of the game in Ireland! We shouldnt have to worry that the greatest resistance to any change will be from within the game as some people cling to being a a big fish in their tiny pond, it's nearly as difficult an obstacle than the FAI's finances! Sadly there might be a place or two available in either division for any takers come next season if there is no consensus is reached on how to restart this season.

    The End.

    In brief response - ANYWHERE could host a new LOI side. But nowhere wants to. That's why we're 2-3 clubs down at the moment.

    35 years ago the LOI expanded by taking in 6 new clubs. 18 years ago we had 2 clubs in just Mullingar alone fighting to join the LOI, and both lost out to Kildare, 9 years ago we had the early stage of a pyramid system, with clubs able to enter the LOI form the level below. Fast forward to now, and we can't get a single team anywhere genuinely interested in joining. Not one. Hence we've been running 2 teams short for the last few years, and 3 short effectively this season.

    You can play fantasy club-creation all day long if you want. But it is utterly pointless, as no club anywhere wants to join our league currently. That's the start and end of it I'm afraid. Until the underlying issues which make taking the step up to LOI unattractive are tackled, this is all just moot and a bit silly IMO.

    P.S. You know you've really lost the plot when you're proposing an LOI team for 'East Leitrim'. Firstly - There isn't really any East Leitrim though. It's more of a north and south kind of county. And secondly - I think there's almost as many people living in my street as there are in East Leitrim
    P.P.S. If you think foot.ie/the LOI is tribal, wait until you meet the nordy supporters !
    Last edited by EatYerGreens; 12/05/2020 at 12:13 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple stu View Post
    Still don't agree with that actually. The point of the significant investment was to increase the standard across all club; €100-€150k extra for teams 9-16 would make a big difference (more than the same amount given to the top teams obviously), particularly when you look at the player drain the LoI seems to suffer, which has it as one of the youngest leagues in the world.

    And I think even focusing on that over the flip side of the argument of needing to develop new clubs is also an inherently self-centred stance. Which, again, it's quite understandable. But I think to bring this back on topic a bit, this all stemmed from Nesta's comment that "Would Dundalk and Rovers really give out about [an expanded league] when it came to the crunch?" and then listing some of the exact arguments which you're raising now. So I think it's clear that Rovers/Dundalk would give out about it, which was where I was going with my original point.

    (It also wasn't a proposal btw; it was a discussion document. The idea was to get some debate going on what the league could/should look like, rather than go into specifics on details, timelines, what margin of wins wouldn't be satisfactory initially, etc)
    I don't think if you suddenly gave every club in the LOI 100k-150k extra the gap would close. It would just cause current players wages to rise which isn't a bad thing but it doesn't increase the player pool instantly which is what you'd need to happen in that scenario.

    And you can talk about extra money but unless there's money in the division below its useless because you'll just end up with the same 4/5 teams yo-yoing up and down.

    Eh I haven't made any arguments against an increased league? I've just pointed out that the how is just as important and the what in this conversation. I don't know how Rovers would feel about an increased league and its probably not as simple as saying an organisation is for or against something so complex with so many potential pros and cons.

    You can't just go are you for or against an expanded league because there's far too many variables to give a yes or no answer.

    I know it was a document, proposal was a throw away term just because it sounds better and is more intuitive than document I think.

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    As an aside to this debate - can anyone explain the difference between the various leagues in Diublin ? Leinster Senior, Leinster Junior, Alliance League, Athletic Union League, League of Gentlemen. How do they all sit relative to each other? It all seems really weird to me.
    Last edited by EatYerGreens; 12/05/2020 at 12:25 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RathfarnhamHoop View Post
    I don't think if you suddenly gave every club in the LOI 100k-150k extra the gap would close. It would just cause current players wages to rise which isn't a bad thing but it doesn't increase the player pool instantly which is what you'd need to happen in that scenario.
    I don't necessarily agree with that. I think player drain is an issue for the LoI - it's why we've one of the youngest leagues in the world (even if UCD skew that somewhat) - so being able to retain players would naturally strengthen it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple stu View Post
    I don't necessarily agree with that. I think player drain is an issue for the LoI - it's why we've one of the youngest leagues in the world (even if UCD skew that somewhat) - so being able to retain players would naturally strengthen it.
    I'd agree with this. There are Irish players playing in some really random leagues and levels around Europe who could do a job for an LOI club at home. But they've clearly moved to a lower standard for the money (and who could fault them for that).

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    Quote Originally Posted by EatYerGreens View Post
    As an aside to this debate - can anyone explain the difference between the various leagues in Diublin ? Leinster Senior, Leinster Junior, Alliance League, Athletic Union League, League of Gentlemen. How do they all sit relative to each other? It all seems really weird to me.
    Little kingdoms for the blazers. The Leinster senior is the most recognised and best standard. The top tier of the LSL is a similar standard to the first division of LOI from the games I’ve witnessed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple stu View Post
    I don't necessarily agree with that. I think player drain is an issue for the LoI - it's why we've one of the youngest leagues in the world (even if UCD skew that somewhat) - so being able to retain players would naturally strengthen it.
    As you've rightly said 100k extra to the top clubs wouldn't make as much of a difference to them (it would just go towards cancelling out the European money and transfer money they lost out on under the document) as to the lower down clubs but they're where the drain is from. Sure just look at Rovers last season they lose Clarke so go get Farrugia from UCD that's how LOI works and and extra 100k isn't going to allow these lower down clubs to suddenly go full time so that would continue to happen because as I've said the top clubs wages wouldn't increase enough to keep players anyway, it wouldn't allow the lower clubs to go full time, so all it would do wage wise is slightly increase the wages of those players at clubs that are 8/9th in the Premier division down which wouldn't lead to better retention.

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    Think that's a bit simplistic though.

    The number of players the league can afford to adequately pay has reduced a lot. That's an issue in terms of its strength - to be losing players for whom it's just not worthwhile.

    Take the UCD team in Europe five years ago (for no other reason than that I know the numbers; not pretending to speak for the players' circumstances here). 18 played in those games. 4 are still playing LoI now - Watts, Benson, O'Neill and Jack Watson with Bray. Every other player has left the league afaik. Some weren't good enough of course - that'll always happen - but I think that's a huge drain in just five years from a half-decent squad. But that's still a lot of players for the league to lose. Would none of them strengthen a squad now? Would none of them be interested if pay were increased? Unlikely I think. I don't think that's an anomaly either.

    (BTW, top clubs wouldn't have been getting €100k extra - probably twice that. You're right that it wouldn't make as much of a difference to them as €100k would to the smaller clubs, but that's kind of the point in terms of making the lower section more competitive. However, if an overall improved setup pushes the top clubs to go through a round more in Europe, then that's their payback. All in theory, of course)
    Last edited by pineapple stu; 12/05/2020 at 2:37 PM.

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    I normally am very good at giving out but this is one of the best threads I have read in a long while and well done to all concerned.

    For Co Leitrim I used to work in Carrick on Shannon and they had a team called Carrick Town who play in Sligo/Leitrim League.
    For Co Roscommon you have the likes of Boyle Celtic and Roscommon Town.
    For Cavan you have Cavan Town FC.


    Had forgotten all about Bangor FC being in third tier as that was Roddy Collins debut as mgr wasnt it?

    Didnt realise that Cork City had extended their boundary. How far out has it extended to now?
    Gary Cronin is he the right man to manage Longford Town?

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