Where might new clubs come from?

[pineapple stu]

Ruud Dokter said "I’m here because I’ve come from a country with a big history in youth development. I’m not here to copy that system but I’m here to instil some principles of development, which are all over the world the same… you need to have a pyramid structure, one way or another." (My emphasis)

An intermediary league has failed for the past decades, from the A Championship to the LoI B Division formed in the mid 60s, to the LSL since 1922. Why would you expect anything to change now?

The description "an Irish solution for an Irish problem" is meaningless.

[legendz]

Ruud Dokter said "I’m here because I’ve come from a country with a big history in youth development. I’m not here to copy that system but I’m here to instil some principles of development, which are all over the world the same… you need to have a pyramid structure, one way or another." (My emphasis)

"I acknowledge the good work schoolboy clubs do but I'm looking at the bigger picture," said Dokter. "It's vital to have a structured pathway to the top of the pyramid.

"We want everyone in Ireland to collaborate. This is a perfect fit for our best young players who don't go away to England."

The Dokter seems to be speaking of the youth pyramid as opposed to the pineapple pyramid?

An intermediary league has failed for the past decades, from the A Championship to the LoI B Division formed in the mid 60s, to the LSL since 1922. Why would you expect anything to change now?

The description "an Irish solution for an Irish problem" is meaningless.

However a number of B Division teams, including Home Farm, Athlone Town, UCD, Longford Town and Monaghan United, were subsequently elected to the senior division??

[pineapple stu]

No, Dokter (and that article in general) is talking about the overall pyramid, as the below extract makes clear.

If the ideal is a pyramid, it is actually very difficult to describe what the current shape of Irish football is. It doesn’t even have fully joined-up lines.

Broadly speaking, there are three main pillars: schoolboy (the SFAI), junior (the provincial FAs) and senior (the League of Ireland). Between those pillars, the links are unclear. Within them, there are even more disparate blocks and often multiple different leagues in the same county, some of them with no defined place in the structure.

A kind view would call it an Escher painting. A harsh one would call it a mess.

Rather than clear steps, there have traditionally been gaps and ceilings everywhere, with the situation historically complicated by endless political issues.

It is for that reason that, while Dokter’s end point may be clear, the path there is not.

One FAI employee tells the story of a meeting he was at in 2008, when a pyramid structure was being discussed. “Why bother,” came one response. “It’s a political nightmare.”

However a number of B Division teams, including Home Farm, Athlone Town, UCD, Longford Town and Monaghan United, were subsequently elected to the senior division??

So what? How does that mean it's an appropriate solution? They would have been promoted earlier in a normal situation (or indeed not promoted at all until they were good enough, like in UCD's case)

[Eminence Grise]

If you’re a certain vintage you might remember Donal Foley’s Man Bites Dog in the Irish Times. There was one where facing two problems – calls to legalise contraception and help native industry – Foley suggested that the only available condoms should be ones made of Gaeltarra tweed. Like PS says, an Irish solution to an Irish problem doesn’t work. There are plenty of structures and models we can tweak and refine but we don’t need to create something new and unique when pyramids work everywhere else.

Once I finish solving the Israeli-Palestinian conflicts, I’ll get stuck into this pyramid, (always start with the easy negotiations, right?)
1 pro league
1 semi-pro league
2 North-South amateur/semi-pro leagues
(could have Pro u23s?)
4 provincial leagues
8 regional leagues
24 district leagues (mergers, mergers mergers)

[sbgawa]

If you’re a certain vintage you might remember Donal Foley’s Man Bites Dog in the Irish Times. There was one where facing two problems – calls to legalise contraception and help native industry – Foley suggested that the only available condoms should be ones made of Gaeltarra tweed. Like PS says, an Irish solution to an Irish problem doesn’t work. There are plenty of structures and models we can tweak and refine but we don’t need to create something new and unique when pyramids work everywhere else.

Once I finish solving the Israeli-Palestinian conflicts, I’ll get stuck into this pyramid, (always start with the easy negotiations, right?)
1 pro league
1 semi-pro league
2 North-South amateur/semi-pro leagues
(could have Pro u23s?)
4 provincial leagues
8 regional leagues
24 district leagues (mergers, mergers mergers)

I'm thinking of sorting out Afganistan before i get into the really tricky stuff like getting the local league Turkeys to vote for Christmas.

[legendz]

No, Dokter (and article in general) is talking about the overall pyramid, as the below extract makes clear.

Dokter should take the advice at the end of that quote; “Why bother”, “It’s a political nightmare.” and instil some principles of development.

So what? How does that mean it's an appropriate solution? They would have been promoted earlier in a normal situation (or indeed not promoted at all until they were good enough, like in UCD's case)

It's a compromise solution. LoI clubs can field reserve teams. Non-LoI entities can build up structures around a team, with the aim of achieving a First Division licence and also gaining promotion on the field of play.

[GUFCghost]

I think what really killed the A-Championship was the recession. The first thing a town needs for a decent amateur/semi-pro sports team is men in their 20s, which in 2010s Ireland was lacking.

I might be speaking from the trauma of Galway's crisis in the early 2010s, but I don't see a pyramid as the answer. Wexford and Limerick look like they could repeat that crisis again, which would be depressing. We already have two clubs with basically no supporters, maybe more. Imagine if Cabo and UCD were in the premier division? Imagine stradbrook on TV, it would be a disaster.

Intermediate football in this country doesn't exist. When you look at the LSL website, the divisions are divided by days of the week. It's hard to work out who exactly are the best non-league team in Leinster is because these clubs obviously don't care about being the best non-league team in Leinster. There hasn't been a Connacht league in years,too.

We need proper intermediate leagues with decent regional spread, linked to junior football. I don't see the point in forcing them to LOI level after that. A club/local FA interested in setting up a club should go through some kind of bidding process and start in the a-championship. Call a spade a spade and admit that we have a franchise league.

And sure, other european countries have pyramids. That doesn't mean it'll work here, that doesn't even mean it works there. Plenty of eastern european leagues where big clubs play in the same division as teams with less than 300 regular attendees. We have three other major field sports to compete with and a culture that doesn't support teams week in week out. We have absolutely no history of a pyramid, meaning most clubs are happy as big fish in small ponds.

[pineapple stu]

I'm thinking of sorting out Afganistan before i get into the really tricky stuff like getting the local league Turkeys to vote for Christmas.

It's interesting that in that Miguel Delaney article, one third of the people Delaney approached would only agree to speak about a pyramid off the record. That's mental stuff. Afghanistan has nothing on the LoI!

Dokter should take the advice at the end of that quote; “Why bother”, “It’s a political nightmare.” and instil some principles of development.

What nonsense. Dokter is paid to improve the performance of the FAI - he should push for change, and not bow down to some lackey causing trouble because he's looking to keep his own regional fiefdom.

It's a compromise solution.

It's not a compromise solution. It's a failed solution. Has been for 100 years. Non-league clubs have no reason to push themselves. There's no new blood stirring things up in the league. Clubs can go bust and restart debt-free in the same division (Wexford and Waterford, how are you?) The FAI have a veto over who can and can't join the league. Everything about the current setup is daft.

[pineapple stu]

Imagine if Cabo and UCD were in the premier division?

Is UCD in the Premier that hard to imagine?

And sure, other european countries have pyramids. That doesn't mean it'll work here, that doesn't even mean it works there. Plenty of eastern european leagues where big clubs play in the same division as teams with less than 300 regular attendees. We have three other major field sports to compete with and a culture that doesn't support teams week in week out. We have absolutely no history of a pyramid, meaning most clubs are happy as big fish in small ponds.

It certainly works better than the current setup. Regional sides with a bit of ambition or money know they can rise to the top. Rubbish sides get dumped down a level and stop wasting teams' time finishing bottom of the same division year-in-year-out. That's a benefit for those clubs too - how do you get local interest if you're getting beaten every weekend?

Why is teams with crowds of 300 in the top flight an issue? If they're better than the teams in the lower division, that's the important bit. If they're bad (or badly run), they'll get relegated. If they want to decline promotion, they can do so (often happens due to licensing reasons anyway)

Lots of other countries have major sports to compete against; we need to stop trotting that out as an excuse. And "we don't have a history of something" isn't a reason not to do it. If we implement it, then we will have a history of it.

[legendz]

It's not a compromise solution. It's a failed solution. Has been for 100 years. Non-league clubs have no reason to push themselves. There's no new blood stirring things up in the league. Clubs can go bust and restart debt-free in the same division (Wexford and Waterford, how are you?) The FAI have a veto over who can and can't join the league. Everything about the current setup is daft.

It was a shot down solution mainly by clubs who begrudged having to be a part of it. The solution should be only involving clubs who do want to be a part of it.
Do you remember Cobh Ramblers being part of the A Championship for a few years? The likes of Waterford and Wexford from your example would have to rebuild in the intermediary league, if there was a team with a First Division licence ready to replace them.
The First Division got by with 8 teams for a few seasons. At least 8 teams between reserve and non-LoI would be the requirement to get an intermediary league up and running.
Kerry are the only non-LoI entity at u19 level. I'm not aware of 7 LoI clubs interested in fielding a B team. The current day interest is not there. ☹️

[Philosophizer]

Ruud Dokter also said you have to find a solution that suits the individuality of each country. An intermediary league is an Irish solution for an Irish problem.

I completely disagree. The intermediary league (which wasn't an awful idea) just didn't work in the end.
A proper pyramid structure is the only way to go. The disjointed nature of football leagues here just makes no sense.

[sbgawa]

The FAI should just impose a solution.
Decide which leagues to combine (like redrawing of dail constituencies) and then tell any leagues who don't fall into line they will be cut off from all Government money / FAI money, players wont be picked for National underage teams, no National insurance scheme , no international tickets etc etc until they do.
A big row and then we are off and running,
Like the smoking ban or smokeless coal, impossible until it wasnt

[pineapple stu]

Do you remember Cobh Ramblers being part of the A Championship for a few years?

Yes. What's your point?

I also remember Cobh applying to join the First Division and being rejected for no particular reason, and so they sat twiddling their thumbs for 2012 with nowhere to go. Another major black mark for the current setup.

The likes of Waterford and Wexford from your example would have to rebuild in the intermediary league, if there was a team with a First Division licence ready to replace them.

But the point you're missing is that the A Championship is just an extra level onto an already stupid system. It doesn't actually solve the problems; it just adds to them.

I'll ask you (again) to look at what happened Tralee Dynamos for evidence of how daft the A Championship was (and the associated problem of different seasons)

[EatYerGreens]

The FAI should just impose a solution.
Decide which leagues to combine (like redrawing of dail constituencies) and then tell any leagues who don't fall into line they will be cut off from all Government money / FAI money, players wont be picked for National underage teams, no National insurance scheme , no international tickets etc etc until they do.
A big row and then we are off and running,
Like the smoking ban or smokeless coal, impossible until it wasnt

The problem is that the FAI is a representative body, with the people affected by this having votes. So a few clubs/individuals would agitate around it and seek to have to voted down at the next AGM - and/or the removal of those pushing it.

The Government should acknowledge the difficulty of changing an organisation where self-interest is baked in structurally, and dictate that it will only provide funding in return for change. That way the FAI can just be the innocent party forced to deliver the change, and there is nothing to agitate for by Irish football's self-appointed tribal chiefs - because they'd effectively be campaigning against funding.

[pineapple stu]

If the Government dictates policy to the FAI, the FAI gets suspended from FIFA. Not an option.

Also, the Government is a representative body too, with the people affected by its decisions having votes. The switch at Joe Duffy would be clogged if the Government cut funding to some District League.

[legendz]

I completely disagree. The intermediary league (which wasn't an awful idea) just didn't work in the end.
A proper pyramid structure is the only way to go. The disjointed nature of football leagues here just makes no sense.

The seasoned pros on here like yourself and pineapple should be well aware that the pyramid doesn't have a hope of being built. The big fish in the small ponds do not want to budge. An intermediary league is the only solution and not even a possibility at this current time.

[pineapple stu]

That doesn't change the fact that it's the right way to progress, that the current setup is a mess, that an intermediary league isn't a solution to anything, and that you haven't actually got any points to back up your argument other than "It's not going to happen"

[EatYerGreens]

If the Government dictates policy to the FAI, the FAI gets suspended from FIFA. Not an option.

Also, the Government is a representative body too, with the people affected by its decisions having votes. The switch at Joe Duffy would be clogged if the Government cut funding to some District League.

It's a much more grey area than that.

The government provides funding to football. It therefore has a duty re how that public money is spent. It would be perfectly reasonable for it to state that it wants Irish football to have a less chaotic and more sensible and integrated structure. The rule around political intervention in football isn't about stuff like this anyway, so FIFA would hardly break a sweat over it all.

Of course the other option is for the issue to be all carrot. The government to say extra funding will be made available if Irish football goes down a certain route. Then leave it entirely up to those in the game if they want to voluntarily go down that route to secure extra money. That's football choosing to change itself.

[pineapple stu]

It's not the Government's job to decide what league structure is best for Irish football. That's way too detailed a level for it to be getting into, and the Government absolutely shouldn't be dictating such matters to the FAI.

FIFA statutes insist on "the independence of members and decision-making in each country" (BBC). It's hard to see how the Government telling the FAI to completely revamp its pyramid or else it would withhold funding wouldn't contravene that.

[EatYerGreens]

It's not the Government's job to decide what league structure is best for Irish football. That's way too detailed a level for it to be getting into, and the Government absolutely shouldn't be dictating such matters to the FAI.

FIFA statutes insist on "the independence of members and decision-making in each country" (BBC). It's hard to see how the Government telling the FAI to completely revamp its pyramid or else it would withhold funding wouldn't contravene that.

You didn't read what I wrote. Offering completely new, additional money with strings attached is not withholding money.

For me, the bottom line is that Irish football needs to change. And it looks unlikely that it will be able to change itself. Gurning on the internet about it is all very well, but solutions need to be identified. I've identified one possible route for this. What are your proposed solutions to deliver the change you want to see ?