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Thread: Where might new clubs come from?

  1. #241
    Capped Player nigel-harps1954's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bucket View Post
    Does anyone know what the intermediate leagues opinions are on a pyramid structure or has the FAI ever tried to implement one?
    In simple terms, the intermediate teams don't want it.

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    Fair enough. One more if you don't mind, is it possible to be promoted from junior to intermediate on the pitch or is it just a case of applying for a place in an intermediate league?

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    International Prospect Martinho II's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954 View Post
    In simple terms, the intermediate teams don't want it.
    Yeah there seems to be more power with non loi teams in FAI board level than with loi teams hence JDs famous saying "problem child" He was getting sweetners from ie LSL,MSL.
    As regards wexford scenario is it entirely possible that there could be an amalgamation of Wexford FC and Wexford League into the one loi team with each sector having their own individual share?
    The only reason I am suggesting this is that I was looking at an old Longford Town Drogheda Utd programme from 2004 and and it said in Droghedas list of honours:

    1975
    In 1975 Drogheda F.C. amalgamated with Drogheda United to form Drogheda United F.C. and the 1975–76 season saw an improvement in fortunes on the field as they finished sixth in the league and they also reached the FAI Cup Final for the second time, this time losing 1–0 to Bohemians.

    Source:
    Drogheda United F.C. - Wikipediaen.wikipedia.org › wiki › Drogheda_United_F.C.
    Daire Doyles red and black army

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    International Prospect Martinho II's Avatar
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    but interestingly I came across this gem:

    History
    1919–1975: Early years
    Founded in 1919 the original Drogheda United were a non-league club for all of their early years of existence but on Saturday 22 June 1963 another Drogheda Club – Drogheda F.C. (founded in 1962) were elected to the League of Ireland when the league was expanded to include twelve teams rather than ten. In their first season there they finished tenth and also in each of the next three seasons finished in the bottom three. In the 1967–68 season they achieved a respectable fifth-place finish and the following season finished in sixth place. When the league expanded to include fourteen teams the club dropped down the table again finishing in the bottom five in each of the next six seasons and also recording their heaviest league defeat 8–1 to Cork Hibernians in the 1970–71 season. They did, however, get to FAI Cup final that season where they were beaten 3–0 by Limerick in a replay after the first match ended 00..

    Obviously with Drogheda Utd scenario its a completely different scenario to now! It will be interesting to see what happens. Or is it possible that MW wants to wind up this wexford fc cos of tax issues and wants an new entity like a few seasons back!

    The mind boggles thats for sure!
    Daire Doyles red and black army

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bucket View Post
    Fair enough. One more if you don't mind, is it possible to be promoted from junior to intermediate on the pitch or is it just a case of applying for a place in an intermediate league?
    The normal way of going from junior to intermediate would be by being promoted. For LSL that's going from Major Sunday to Senior 1B (I think) Sunday.

    To be honest the whole football system in Ireland needs a complete restructuring. Too many leagues all using the same names to define different things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RathfarnhamHoop View Post
    They went in at the lowest level in so far as that the leagues below aren't actually connected to it they're feeder leagues and clubs are elected up a league if they with rather than promoted.
    Obviously normally leagues have licencing criteria that can block a promotion the "application" for promotion is still automatically processed while for election to a league things are a bit different. That's what I mean by lowest rug on the ladder.
    That's just not true either I'm afraid. The football pyramid in England goes down to a crazily low level with interconnected tiers.

    For example AFC Wimbledon started off in the Combined Counties Premier Division. The level below that is the Combined Counties First Division. Funnily enough there is promotion and relegation between those 2 leagues, as they're administered by the same body. The Combined Counties First is then fed into from the Tier 11 leagues within its area e.g. the Surrey League, Middlesex League, Thames Valley etc. They're al inter-linked.

    Not trying to be mean here, but the confidence with which you're making these assertions is genuinely impressive considering they're just not based on fact.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RathfarnhamHoop View Post
    All the clubs big enough to make a jump like being a big fish in a small pond and will do anything to protect that while other clubs aren't big enough to be bothered
    There's is an unfathomable parochialism within Irish society and psyche in my view. The GAA understood this perfectly and hence set itself up on a model based more on parishes rather than actual places. In turn that GAA system helps reinforce that parochialism within Irish life.

    The whole idea that it doesn't matter how well your club is doing, so long as you're better off than and beating the club next door. When in reality you'd all be much better if you joined together to take on others. So long as you walk into a room and feel like a giant amongst pygmies, then all's well in the world.

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  9. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by EatYerGreens View Post
    That's just not true either I'm afraid. The football pyramid in England goes down to a crazily low level with interconnected tiers.

    For example AFC Wimbledon started off in the Combined Counties Premier Division. The level below that is the Combined Counties First Division. Funnily enough there is promotion and relegation between those 2 leagues, as they're administered by the same body. The Combined Counties First is then fed into from the Tier 11 leagues within its area e.g. the Surrey League, Middlesex League, Thames Valley etc. They're al inter-linked.

    Not trying to be mean here, but the confidence with which you're making these assertions is genuinely impressive considering they're just not based on fact.
    Read back what I said. They joined the year that the combined counties league expanded to two divisions. The season before they joined there was only one but they added the second division on.
    The 02-03 season they had 24 teams, one team dropped out and they decided to expand when 19 teams applied to join in their place. They chose one of those 19 to replace the one that dropped out due to the lack of a division directly connected below. That team was AFC Wimbledon as their application was the strongest.

    They're inter linked in the way that the LSL is interlinked to the LOI, in theory the strongest team is encouraged to apply but any team actually can apply. They're called feeder leagues in the same sense you have feeder clubs so that the parent league/club can approach or offer for members of the feeder league/club to join but there's no obligation on either side to do so. Whereas with relegation and promotion there is an obligation to set out how many will go up or down before the season begins.

    Essentially how that division one works is a committee sits down around the end of the season and looks at all the applications to be in the league the next season, they'll have teams in the league currently, new entities, clubs from the feeder leagues and clubs looking to transfer from other leagues where borders maybe cross over. One year they might relegate nobody but accept 6 new teams another they might relegate promote one. There's no consistency because its all done by application not by set promotions and relegations
    Last edited by RathfarnhamHoop; 25/06/2020 at 7:53 PM.

  10. #249
    Capped Player nigel-harps1954's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bucket View Post
    Fair enough. One more if you don't mind, is it possible to be promoted from junior to intermediate on the pitch or is it just a case of applying for a place in an intermediate league?
    Quote Originally Posted by RathfarnhamHoop View Post
    The normal way of going from junior to intermediate would be by being promoted. For LSL that's going from Major Sunday to Senior 1B (I think) Sunday.

    To be honest the whole football system in Ireland needs a complete restructuring. Too many leagues all using the same names to define different things.
    All depends entirely on the league. There is no promotion into Ulster Senior League, it's entirely elective, and from what I'm aware, there's none into the Munster either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954 View Post
    All depends entirely on the league. There is no promotion into Ulster Senior League, it's entirely elective, and from what I'm aware, there's none into the Munster either.
    Munster Senior League has three intermediate divisions, Premier, First and Second. Entry into the Second is only allowable on application, either from Cork’s AUL League (quite a popular move in recent years, three clubs already doing it this summer), or from the Munster Senior League Junior Divisions, if the club is not already active at intermediate (rarely happens, if anything clubs use this in the opposite way to drop down when struggling).

    Most of the MSL Junior clubs are all second teams so hence no direct link of promotion/relegation between the Junior Premier and Senior Second.

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  13. #251
    Capped Player nigel-harps1954's Avatar
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    Funny, Ulster Senior League is the opposite this past number of years. More clubs are dropping down to junior leagues. They can't afford to keep running the intermediate sides, competing with the likes of Letterkenny Rovers paying players and Cockhill Celtic who just keep winning it.

    USL is down to 4 first team clubs and two reserve teams (Harps and Derry).

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    Quote Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954 View Post
    All depends entirely on the league. There is no promotion into Ulster Senior League, it's entirely elective, and from what I'm aware, there's none into the Munster either.
    Apologies I missed the "in the LSL" off the front of that. As far as I'm aware it's promotion in the lsl as reserve sides play in the Saturday leagues

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    Quote Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954 View Post
    USL is down to 4 first team clubs and two reserve teams (Harps and Derry).
    Didn’t know that. Fairly worrying.

    MSL has its faults, the main one being it’s solely Cork clubs, but it’s well ran and all ambitious Cork clubs have joined its ranks in the last ten years. A diverse spread across the county and players who leave Cork/Cobh U19s are staying involved in the sport.

    A push to make it actually Munster based (include Tralee, Pike, St Michael’s, Newmarket, Killarney, etc) would be a logical next step, before making the league a third division in our ideal pyramid structure.

    One can dream!

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    International Prospect Martinho II's Avatar
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    What has ever happened to the CSL(Connacht)? I remember us playing them in the league cup over a decade ago. Is that disbanded for good?
    Daire Doyles red and black army

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    It's around 20 years since we had CSL. There are enough strong clubs in Connacht to form a decent league, imo. I'm not sure if it makes a difference but the roads in Connacht have improved significantly in the past 20 years, so if travel was an issue for some clubs at the time, maybe it wouldn't be an issue today.
    I think the restructuring and promotion/marketing of the provincial senior leagues needs to come under the remit of the new LOI Director. Promotion to the LOI and decent prize-money could transform Irish football.

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  20. #256
    Capped Player nigel-harps1954's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cobhlad View Post
    Didn’t know that. Fairly worrying.

    MSL has its faults, the main one being it’s solely Cork clubs, but it’s well ran and all ambitious Cork clubs have joined its ranks in the last ten years. A diverse spread across the county and players who leave Cork/Cobh U19s are staying involved in the sport.

    A push to make it actually Munster based (include Tralee, Pike, St Michael’s, Newmarket, Killarney, etc) would be a logical next step, before making the league a third division in our ideal pyramid structure.

    One can dream!
    Ulster Senior League was a great league at one point too. But in the past ten years, my own club, Drumkeen United, have dropped to Donegal League along with Kildrum Tigers and more recently Swilly Rovers, while Buncrana Hearts have gone back to the Inishowen League.

    It's getting harder for smaller clubs to compete in the USL. It's been ruined by money.

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    International Prospect Martinho II's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bucket View Post
    It's around 20 years since we had CSL. There are enough strong clubs in Connacht to form a decent league, imo. I'm not sure if it makes a difference but the roads in Connacht have improved significantly in the past 20 years, so if travel was an issue for some clubs at the time, maybe it wouldn't be an issue today.
    I think the restructuring and promotion/marketing of the provincial senior leagues needs to come under the remit of the new LOI Director. Promotion to the LOI and decent prize-money could transform Irish football.
    I actually mixed up the years. We played the Mayo league in league cup in 06. Think we played CSL in mid 80s in league cup top of my head.
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    International Prospect Martinho II's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954 View Post
    Ulster Senior League was a great league at one point too. But in the past ten years, my own club, Drumkeen United, have dropped to Donegal League along with Kildrum Tigers and more recently Swilly Rovers, while Buncrana Hearts have gone back to the Inishowen League.

    It's getting harder for smaller clubs to compete in the USL. It's been ruined by money.
    But USL Nigel is all donegal league aint it?
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    Capped Player nigel-harps1954's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martinho II View Post
    But USL Nigel is all donegal league aint it?
    And Derry, yeah.

    There were efforts made to include Monaghan/Cavan sides but the appetite wasn't there from them, and Sligo weren't permitted to put a reserve side in. There's a west-ulster intermediate cup trialed this year between sides from USL and one of the intermediate leagues in the north, and that's about as good as it's got there.

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  25. #260
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    Quote Originally Posted by EalingGreen View Post
    As an illustration of the importance of having a proper pyramid beneath any top tier, see this article on Annagh United, who play in Portadown:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52879417

    They were top of the Premier Intermediate League (3rd tier) and looking good for promotion to the Championship when the season was closed down:
    https://www.nifootballleague.com/pre...020/standings/

    If/when they should go up, they could very possibly be replacing their near neighbours Portadown FC, who were top of the Championship themselves and favourites to go up to the Premiership in turn.

    Now confirmed that just as Portadown have been promoted to the Premiership, Annagh have been promoted in their place to the Championship. Dunno whether they'll both survive at that level (Ports should), but still, it's good for football in mid-Ulster.

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