Where might new clubs come from?

[EatYerGreens]

How do other, comparable leagues manage?

I guess they manage by not having a football association that seeks to make a profit out of running its league, whilst leaving clubs in that league essentially skint.

I'm not aware of any other football association which charges clubs more to be in the league than it gives back to them in prize money, for example.

The point isn't about relying on prize money to survive. It's that the mere act of joining the LOI is going to end up costing any new club money just in payments to the FAI. Especially if they end up at the bottom end of the First Division table (as you would realistically expect new clubs to do). So why would they bother?

PS. For someone who passes comment a lot on football in the south, you don't seem to understand how it works that much.

[DCWA]

Welders are not a "Junior" club, they're not even an Intermediate one.

]

No, in the south they would be considered very much a “junior” club.

This is simply a matter of different terminology being used between IL//LOI I am aware of what constitutes the difference / stepping up point between junior/intermediate/senior football in the north, there are plenty of Derry teams who are part of that structure.

[EalingGreen]

I'm not aware of any other football association which charges clubs more to be in the league than it gives back to them in prize money, for example.

Except that that's not the case.
For as Mr. Parker pointed out in the AIL thread (post # 266), although the net receipts are poor, nonetheless clubs still get more out than they pay in:
https://foot.ie/attachment.php?attac...3&d=1589481275

The point isn't about relying on prize money to survive. It's that the mere act of joining the LOI is going to end up costing any new club money just in payments to the FAI. Especially if they end up at the bottom end of the First Division table (as you would realistically expect new clubs to do). So why would they bother?

You cannot simply ignore all the other potential benefits of stepping up and just fixate on the costs of league registration and fines etc versus prize money. For even if you were correct and that it costs the clubs more than they take out (and you're not, see above), this ignores a raft of other factors.

By moving up to the LOI, clubs can hope to increase revenues by charging more at the gate and attracting more fans (both home and visiting), as well as making more from commercial activities, sponsorship, advertising and media etc. By generating more revenue, they can hope to improve their facilities and amenities over time, charge more accordingly and so on. In time, they might even aspire to European football eg Dungannon Swifts have twice finished 4th in the IL, while Ballinamallard, a village club from Fermanagh established in 1975, got to the final of the Irish Cup last season.

Of course all this takes a great deal of hard work and commitment over a long period, during which there will be hard times as well as good. Which is why it is much more likely to come from well-established clubs with firm foundations and history etc, rather than "pop-up clubs" that may be here today, gone tomorrow.

But that's what every club in every league needs to progress: it's called Ambition.

PS. For someone who passes comment a lot on football in the south, you don't seem to understand how it works that much.

One of the reasons I come on here is to learn from other, better-informed contributors, who generally stick to the point and avoid getting personal.

Of course, that is not the case with every poster...

Oh well.

[EatYerGreens]

Except that that's not the case.
For as Mr. Parker pointed out in the AIL thread (post # 266), although the net receipts are poor, nonetheless clubs still get more out than they pay in:
https://foot.ie/attachment.php?attac...3&d=1589481275

That's not the full picture though, as fines etc have to be factored in as well (it's impossible to avoid at least some in an average season). Those basic numbers don't reflect the big split in prize money between the PD and FD either. The prize money for finishing in the bottom half of the FD is pretty derisory.

You cannot simply ignore all the other potential benefits of stepping up and just fixate on the costs of league registration and fines etc versus prize money. For even if you were correct and that it costs the clubs more than they take out (and you're not, see above), this ignores a raft of other factors.

You'll have to make that appeal directly to the non-league clubs themselves. A lot of whom deride the LOI and think it's not much better than a pub league. There is also the added fact that many non-league teams are happy to just be big fish in small ponds, and sticking to what they know. An accusation which is often levelled at IL clubs as well by the way.

By moving up to the LOI, clubs can hope to increase revenues by charging more at the gate and attracting more fans (both home and visiting), as well as making more from commercial activities, sponsorship, advertising and media etc. By generating more revenue, they can hope to improve their facilities and amenities over time, charge more accordingly and so on.

It seems that to carry such hopes is fine and reasonable when it comes to a non-league club joining senior football, but not to northern clubs joining an all-island league. Maybe the non-league clubs are refusing to join until a fully costed proposal is presented to them, and European places guaranteed

In time, they might even aspire to European football eg Dungannon Swifts have twice finished 4th in the IL, while Ballinamallard, a village club from Fermanagh established in 1975, got to the final of the Irish Cup last season.

In short you're talking about 'chasing the dream' here. You can't take on the risk of a big step up in the cost of running a football club in the hope of landing black swan once-a-generation events like that. 90mins of losing cup glory a season ago didn't stop Ballinamallard from getting relegated, for example. Memories of a big day out at Windsor Park are great for fans, but of limited comfort when you're now facing a diet of playing the likes of the PSNI or Knockbreda.

The real killer is that there is a growing split in the LOI between the top clubs and the rest, so talk of someone like a Cabinteely ending up in Europe within any sort of sensible timescale is increasingly fantastical.

Of course all this takes a great deal of hard work and commitment over a long period, during which there will be hard times as well as good. Which is why it is much more likely to come from well-established clubs with firm foundations and history etc, rather than "pop-up clubs" that may be here today, gone tomorrow.

Which is just an argument against clubs joining the LOI too. By the way, it's pretty condescending to talk about LOI new entrants as pop up clubs. The overwhelming majority over the years were long-established outfits e.g. St James's Gate, St Francis, Cabinteely, Kildare County (which was basically Newbridge Town under a broader name), Bray, Monaghan, Longford etc etc. You can sneer at where some of these have ended up since, but apart from Sporting Fingal and Dublin City all the clubs who have joined the LOI over the years have been established sides.

But that's what every club in every league needs to progress: it's called Ambition.

The same argument could be made for why clubs should join an all-island league.

One of the reasons I come on here is to learn from other, better-informed contributors, who generally stick to the point and avoid getting personal.

Of course, that is not the case with every poster...

Oh well.

With respect it genuinely feels more like you're here to pontificate, condescend and sneer than to learn. On a mission to preach to them southerners about all they're doing wrong in football and how the north is just so much better at it all. Football in the Republic has its problems, we know that. You continually try to portray it as an irredeemable basketcase, and an inferior entity to the game in the north. And there is more than an element of sneering in some of your posts. Unusual that some may find that objectionable. If you genuinely are here to learn, maybe reflect a little on how your posts are likely to be perceived.

[pineapple stu]

Of course all this takes a great deal of hard work and commitment over a long period, during which there will be hard times as well as good. Which is why it is much more likely to come from well-established clubs with firm foundations and history etc, rather than "pop-up clubs" that may be here today, gone tomorrow.

But that's what every club in every league needs to progress: it's called Ambition.

I think you're both simultaneously getting the point and not getting it.

Yes, inventing a new club for the league is more likely to lead to failure. We've seen that lots of times here. But I think few enough people are arguing that point.

And yes, you're right that it takes ambition for a club to step up.

But the pros of doing so have to be weighed against the cons. Look at Tralee Dynamoes, who were an existing club with ambition. They left the Kerry District League to join the A Championship, with views of stepping up to the First Division in due course. To do so meant changing their season from Sept-May to Mar-Oct. But after three years, the FAI scrapped the A Championship and refused Tralee's application to join the First Division. So Tralee had to rejoin the Kerry District League - but at the bottom, three divisions below where they had been, and change their season back to Sept-May, which meant (I think) that for eight months they had no games at all. It took them years to get back to where they had been.

Compare that with, say, Larne who in 2007/08 realised they were in above their level, but were able to just opt for relegation one level for the following season.

There's a huge difference between those two. The point of a proper pyramid is to encourage ambition. The LoI structure actively ****s over clubs who look to step up by removing their safety net back down if required, even to the extent of leaving them almost a whole year without a match, and setting the club back years. Why would a club risk that? And this is the point - you have to weigh the pros and the cons.

This has created the unfortunate position that local leagues are now a de facto height of ambition - being LSL champions means far more than it should do for example, and clubs are often happy to have just local ambitions. The LoI is a blind spot for them because of the risks going up there entails. So the structure here is so bad that it is now self-perpetuating.

But get rid of that fundamental barrier to ambition that exists in the LoI, and you will find plenty of clubs like H&W here. A lack of clubs is not the issue here; it's the lack of a structure to encourage ambition.

[EalingGreen]

That's not the full picture though, as fines etc have to be factored in as well (it's impossible to avoid at least some in an average season). Those basic numbers don't reflect the big split in prize money between the PD and FD either. The prize money for finishing in the bottom half of the FD is pretty derisory.

The final net figures may be low, but that's different from what you were claiming i.e. that the FAI were taking more out than they were putting back in. (And even if the fines levied may have been over-the-top, care can still be taken to avoid some of them).

You'll have to make that appeal directly to the non-league clubs themselves. A lot of whom deride the LOI and think it's not much better than a pub league. There is also the added fact that many non-league teams are happy to just be big fish in small ponds, and sticking to what they know. An accusation which is often levelled at IL clubs as well by the way.

If it is a "pub league", don't just complain, fix it.
Other comparable leagues have taken steps to get their house in order, what's so special about the LOI?

And yes, there are (major) problems with the IL, but at least the parties concerned - clubs, NIFL and IFA - are making some effort to improve things, with at least moderate success.

It seems that to carry such hopes is fine and reasonable when it comes to a non-league club joining senior football, but not to northern clubs joining an all-island league. Maybe the non-league clubs are refusing to join until a fully costed proposal is presented to them, and European places guaranteed.

Yes, of course those are arguments for Intermediate clubs stepping up to Senior status.

But maybe I didn't explain my point clearly. Which is that you can't just take the top 12 (14?) (16?) clubs from the IL and LOI and form them into an AIL, sit back and think "Job done".

You need a stable structure beneath the AIL to provide firm foundations, to provide proper Promotion and Relegation and keep the AIL fresh and competitive. Which means having care for the next-level clubs who will take the place in the "feeder" leagues of the clubs moving up to the AIL.

Otherwise you will just end up with the same situation as in the present LOI, which exists for the benefit of 8 or 10 clubs at best and "to hell with the rest". Which leads in turn to the shambles that is the FD, with the same stasis beneath that.

Meanwhile, the large majority of IL Premiership clubs are giving Lucid's proposals a fair hearing. This is because they are open to the idea of joining an AIL. But that doesn't preclude them (and the IFA) from having legitimate concerns as to Lucid's ability to deliver what he's promising.

In short you're talking about 'chasing the dream' here. You can't take on the risk of a big step up in the cost of running a football club in the hope of landing black swan once-a-generation events like that. 90mins of losing cup glory a season ago didn't stop Ballinamallard from getting relegated, for example. Memories of a big day out at Windsor Park are great for fans, but of limited comfort when you're now facing a diet of playing the likes of the PSNI or Knockbreda.

Absolutely not!

"Chasing the dream" means spending money you don't have on unrealistic targets over an unrealistic timeframe. I deliberately cited Mallards and Swifts because they have come from modest beginnings, to elevated (for them) status, and all done by living within their means. So that when they fall back from occasional peak years, it doesn't bust them, they just regroup and go again.

Which is what most IL clubs do and many LOI clubs don't. (And that isn't "sneering", it's a simple fact)

The real killer is that there is a growing split in the LOI between the top clubs and the rest, so talk of someone like a Cabinteely ending up in Europe within any sort of sensible timescale is increasingly fantastical.

No doubt.

But just replacing a set-up whereby a handful of LOI clubs are detached from the rest of football in ROI, with an AIL set-up whereby those same handful of clubs are joined by a few IL clubs, both of which are even further detached from the rest of football in both ROI and NI, is not progress. Rather it's just the same old problem with a few extra noughts on the end.

As for Cabinteely in Europe, of course it's fantastical, which is why I never suggested it. But it actually proves my point in another way, which is that clubs like Cabinteely shouldn't be allowed into the senior set-up in the first place, unless/until they prove they're ready for it.

Which is just an argument against clubs joining the LOI too. By the way, it's pretty condescending to talk about LOI new entrants as pop up clubs. The overwhelming majority over the years were long-established outfits e.g. St James's Gate, St Francis, Cabinteely, Kildare County (which was basically Newbridge Town under a broader name), Bray, Monaghan, Longford etc etc. You can sneer at where some of these have ended up since, but apart from Sporting Fingal and Dublin City all the clubs who have joined the LOI over the years have been established sides.

The point about a "pop-up venue" is that it, er, "pops-up", then either becomes permanently established, or goes away again.

Of those 9 clubs you cite, none is in the PD, 3 are in the FD and 6 are either non-league or disappeared. And of the 3 in the FD, none is exactly setting the heather alight.

Again, you might object to my tone or terminology, but you cannot fault my reasoning.

The same argument [i.e. "ambition"] could be made for why clubs should join an all-island league.

I had hoped it would be taken as read that Ambition should be realistic.

And right now, there are barely a 12 or 14 clubs, north and south, who could hope realistically to compete in an AIL.

And the example of the LOI PD demonstrates that that is not enough to sustain a stable, healthy competition over the long term, unless you also have a stable, healthy foundation below.

And my whole point is that for all the many, acknowledged deficiencies of the IL, it is more likely to provide the foundation clubs for the next level down from the AIL than the LOI.

Therefore it would be folly for any new structure to be set up in such a way as to "fillet" the set-up in NI after the top half dozen have left for an AIL.

With respect it genuinely feels more like you're here to pontificate, condescend and sneer than to learn. On a mission to preach to them southerners about all they're doing wrong in football and how the north is just so much better at it all. Football in the Republic has its problems, we know that. You continually try to portray it as an irredeemable basketcase, and an inferior entity to the game in the north. And there is more than an element of sneering in some of your posts. Unusual that some may find that objectionable. If you genuinely are here to learn, maybe reflect a little on how your posts are likely to be perceived.

My concern is as follows.

I am generally in favour of an AIL in principle, provided it can work in practice. I would want my own team to be part of it. But what I don't want is to see a new AIL as just being "LOI PD 2.0 - Now with Added Nordies!"

For even after Lucid's modified proposals have addressed some of the most obvious drawbacks (independence of IFA, European places for NI clubs, summer/winter season etc), and even assuming he can produce the money he's promising, there still remain a number of other obstacles. In no particular order:

1. If we followed Lucid's (imo) rushed timetable, most of the IL clubs would be uncompetitive on the pitch. Which in turn could see spectator interest seep away north and south;
2. Too many of the LOI clubs have failed to demonstrate that they are financially sound. In a bigger league, the pressure to keep up would be even greater, meaning the losses would just be greater if/when some more of them went bust. And make no mistake, with greater potential rewards on offer, IL clubs would be tempted to abandon their more recent financial prudence too, meaning that we'd be back in "the arms race" as well;
3. As this thread asks, where are the clubs going to come from who can step up from their present 2nd tier level, to the new 2nd tier needed to underpin an AIL? Lucid hasn't even considered this aspect, never mind addressed it;
4. Finally, if the AIL should crash and burn after a few years (like eg the Setanta, or ITV Digital etc), what would the IL clubs have to fall back on, if the whole feeder set-up in NI had been filleted in the setting-up of the AIL? We must not fall into a situation like we see in the LOI, whereby the top half dozen clubs are increasingly detached from even the other PD clubs, never mind the FD clubs, since that serves no-one.

And if you consider that to be pontificating, condescending and sneering etc, then so be it - that's just how I see it, unless or until I can be persuaded otherwise.

[EalingGreen]

I think you're both simultaneously getting the point and not getting it.

Yes, inventing a new club for the league is more likely to lead to failure. We've seen that lots of times here. But I think few enough people are arguing that point.

And yes, you're right that it takes ambition for a club to step up.

But the pros of doing so have to be weighed against the cons. Look at Tralee Dynamoes, who were an existing club with ambition. They left the Kerry District League to join the A Championship, with views of stepping up to the First Division in due course. To do so meant changing their season from Sept-May to Mar-Oct. But after three years, the FAI scrapped the A Championship and refused Tralee's application to join the First Division. So Tralee had to rejoin the Kerry District League - but at the bottom, three divisions below where they had been, and change their season back to Sept-May, which meant (I think) that for eight months they had no games at all. It took them years to get back to where they had been.

Compare that with, say, Larne who in 2007/08 realised they were in above their level, but were able to just opt for relegation one level for the following season.

There's a huge difference between those two. The point of a proper pyramid is to encourage ambition. The LoI structure actively ****s over clubs who look to step up by removing their safety net back down if required, even to the extent of leaving them almost a whole year without a match, and setting the club back years. Why would a club risk that? And this is the point - you have to weigh the pros and the cons.

This has created the unfortunate position that local leagues are now a de facto height of ambition - being LSL champions means far more than it should do for example, and clubs are often happy to have just local ambitions. The LoI is a blind spot for them because of the risks going up there entails. So the structure here is so bad that it is now self-perpetuating.

But get rid of that fundamental barrier to ambition that exists in the LoI, and you will find plenty of clubs like H&W here. A lack of clubs is not the issue here; it's the lack of a structure to encourage ambition.

Fair enough, maybe I am underestimating both the problems posed by the structure in ROI and the number of clubs who could/would step up were that structure to be reformed.

But the more I think about it, the more I am convinced that it would be foolish to proceed with an AIL until the IL clubs up their game on-the-field and the LOI sorts its problems away from it.

Otherwise you're just building a house without even surveying the foundations to see if they'll support it. Which is worse still when your architect has never actually designed a house before and you've not even got an "in principle" mortgage offer from the bank, never mind cash in your account.

Meanwhile, you're rushing to get it built before the site has even been cleared, or the local authorities have granted planning permission.

Still, the architect's drawings look fine, so what could possibly go wrong?

[pineapple stu]

But the more I think about it, the more I am convinced that it would be foolish to proceed with an AIL until the IL clubs up their game on-the-field and the LOI sorts its problems away from it.

I think that's probably reasonable. I think there's almost too much focus on the top level of the LoI - partly because the FAI can claim easy kudos for "creating the environment" for the occasional European run - while the rest of the game is a disconnected shambles, and that's the big problem here.

How's promotion/relegation going to work from the LoI side for example? How do new clubs look to get onboard? If you look at the impact the pyramid had in England and Scotland when introduced, it immediately started strengthening the lower leagues (teams regularly picked up successive promotions in England for example). We could do with some of that here.

My main concern on an AIL - and now we're crossing threads - is that I just don't see (a) how an AIL will deliver a product worth €2m+ to investors annually and (b) how the AIL part of this seems to be specifically what's driving that value (as Lucid doesn't seem to want in on the LoI or the IL). It just doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

And yes it's also why I like the KOTI idea, because that keeps the two separate leagues while trialling the idea in the middle. If it flops, then it's disbanded and never spoken of again (until next time). If it's a success, then you look to expand it in the knowledge that you now have a proven product.

[Martinho II]

I think that's probably reasonable. I think there's almost too much focus on the top level of the LoI - partly because the FAI can claim easy kudos for "creating the environment" for the occasional European run - while the rest of the game is a disconnected shambles, and that's the big problem here.

How's promotion/relegation going to work from the LoI side for example? How do new clubs look to get onboard? If you look at the impact the pyramid had in England and Scotland when introduced, it immediately started strengthening the lower leagues (teams regularly picked up successive promotions in England for example). We could do with some of that here.

My main concern on an AIL - and now we're crossing threads - is that I just don't see (a) how an AIL will deliver a product worth €2m+ to investors annually and (b) how the AIL part of this seems to be specifically what's driving that value (as Lucid doesn't seem to want in on the LoI or the IL). It just doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

And yes it's also why I like the KOTI idea, because that keeps the two separate leagues while trialling the idea in the middle. If it flops, then it's disbanded and never spoken of again (until next time). If it's a success, then you look to expand it in the knowledge that you now have a proven product.

KOTI whats that?

[pineapple stu]

King of the Island. The holding name for the new Kieran Lucid suggestion.

[Charlie Darwin]

I am not in any position to contest your point that there is "no shortage" of clubs like Welders in ROI.

But if so, I can't help wondering why they're not already embracing senior status via the FD?

I'd imagine it's a lot easier to aim for senior football when your longest away trip is potentially 80 miles. There are clubs in the League of Ireland for whom that'd be among their shortest trips. It has a huge bearing on the viability of a football club.

[Charlie Darwin]

But maybe I didn't explain my point clearly. Which is that you can't just take the top 12 (14?) (16?) clubs from the IL and LOI and form them into an AIL, sit back and think "Job done".

You need a stable structure beneath the AIL to provide firm foundations, to provide proper Promotion and Relegation and keep the AIL fresh and competitive. Which means having care for the next-level clubs who will take the place in the "feeder" leagues of the clubs moving up to the AIL.

Otherwise you will just end up with the same situation as in the present LOI, which exists for the benefit of 8 or 10 clubs at best and "to hell with the rest". Which leads in turn to the shambles that is the FD, with the same stasis beneath that.

This is exactly right. The structure below the League of Ireland is a huge problem and, though geography is kinder in Northern Ireland, the lack of even a limited attempt at a pyramid in the Republic is embarrassing.

Any move towards an AIL would have to include some rationalisation of the various fiefdoms in amateur football. The Leinster Senior League is pretty much fully-formed and I think would be amenable to feeding into a pyramid in a limited way but any AIL would have to sort out nonsense like the biggest team in Letterkenny playing in a tiny Donegal league rather than facing comparable teams from across the border.

[GUFCghost]

Would this be the right place to ask what exactly happened to the A championship? Why didn't big intermediate clubs in the munster & leinster leagues get involved? Are any of the old clubs still interested in senior football? What kind of impact did the way Tralee Dynamos were treated have on the way LOI football is perceived in Kerry?

[pineapple stu]

Didn't the bigger clubs decide they didn't want the expense of it?

I imagine lack of ambition and a fear of what happened to Tralee happening to them stopped others jumping up. Just a guess though.

[DCSIL]

Lifted from Wikipedia:

In 2009 at the League of Ireland clubs' annual convention, Dundalk called for the A Championship to be scrapped, arguing that it was putting an unwelcome financial burden on participating clubs. At the same convention Waterford United proposed that it should be optional rather than compulsory for senior sides to field a reserve team in the league. Drogheda United raised concerns about the "unacceptable level" of refereeing. According to a report in the Irish Independent one club, short of two players for an away match, paid two locals to make up their team while a number of fixtures were postponed because clubs di not have enough players.^[18]

[Martinho II]

Didn't the bigger clubs decide they didn't want the expense of it?

I imagine lack of ambition and a fear of what happened to Tralee happening to them stopped others jumping up. Just a guess though.

Yeah think this was accelerated with the recession or something like that. Pity it had to go.

[EalingGreen]

As an illustration of the importance of having a proper pyramid beneath any top tier, see this article on Annagh United, who play in Portadown:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52879417

They were top of the Premier Intermediate League (3rd tier) and looking good for promotion to the Championship when the season was closed down:
https://www.nifootballleague.com/pre...020/standings/

If/when they should go up, they could very possibly be replacing their near neighbours Portadown FC, who were top of the Championship themselves and favourites to go up to the Premiership in turn:
https://www.nifootballleague.com/cha...020/standings/

Where they'd be well positioned to take the place of a Premiership side who were elevated to an AIL (if not get there themselves some day).

Now I don't really know anything about Annagh myself, but they've certainly got a very tidy little set-up, including a plastic pitch which brings in good revenue:

[DCSIL]

Knocked Glentoran out the league cup a couple of years back, When Alan Kernaghan was manager. He resigned a couple of days later if i remember rightly?

[EatYerGreens]

As an illustration of the importance of having a proper pyramid beneath any top tier, see this article on Annagh United, who play in Portadown:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52879417

They were top of the Premier Intermediate League (3rd tier) and looking good for promotion to the Championship when the season was closed down:
https://www.nifootballleague.com/pre...020/standings/

If/when they should go up, they could very possibly be replacing their near neighbours Portadown FC, who were top of the Championship themselves and favourites to go up to the Premiership in turn:
https://www.nifootballleague.com/cha...020/standings/

Where they'd be well positioned to take the place of a Premiership side who were elevated to an AIL (if not get there themselves some day).

Now I don't really know anything about Annagh myself, but they've certainly got a very tidy little set-up, including a plastic pitch which brings in good revenue:

Did you say a tidy or tiny little set up?

[EalingGreen]

Did you say a tidy or tiny little set up?

I'll accept both.

Anyhow, the point is that despite being in the shadow of a bigger neighbour, they're not content to just get on with their reserves, academy and youth set-up etc, but are clearly ambitious to "up their game" across the board.

Which has got to be good for football generally, not just in the town, but across mid-Ulster generally.