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Thread: LoI in Europe 2018

  1. #1181
    Club Member passinginterest's Avatar
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    Some interesting debate here. I think Cork tried to change the way they played last night, it was some of the more open, attacking, football I've seen them play, but it backfired and they conceded sloppy goals. They have a few flaws in the team that are exposed at this level, and particularly when trying to play a more open game. For all the hard work of McCormack in front of the back four he lacks quality on the ball, Brian Kerr was giving him a hard time on commentary for his distribution and it wasn't unfair. They also lacked a cutting edge up front, with lots of hard work from Cummins but little threat in front of goal. Caufield's style of play reminds me of Michael O'Neill's Rovers side to a degree. They also usually set up very conservatively in the league and in Europe, if there was one criticism O'Neill got it was that his team was fairly boring to watch, but what he had was a goal poacher in Twigg and a little more quality in midfield. Cork may have been better sticking with a more conservative and direct style against Rosenborg and taking the criticism that likely would have come had it been a dull 0-0 or a 0-1 loss, but they may have given themselves more hope in the tie.
    Both Dundalk and Cork are in a strange position of being miles ahead of the rest of the league, but also having lost some quality compared to previous iterations. There's some very young players involved in both defenses, and Dundalk's was particularly badly exposed at times. With the experience gained and a couple of astute signings, both sides could still make another big breakthrough in the next season or two. You could argue that there's a 3 year cycle involved in building most teams and Cork and Dundalk are both in a second or third rebuilding phase.
    Hard to see any logic in changing either manager at the moment. But, with the successes they've had, a drop from the top 2 and another disappointing season in Europe next year would probably see them gone.

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  2. #1182
    Biased against YOUR club pineapple stu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by El-Pietro View Post
    And all three got knocked out so it doesn't matter how plucky they were in defeat.
    I think that's too simplistic. From a football point of view, you're right of course. From a business point of view, the question is where are the clubs going. Cork's performances are worse in that regard because while Rovers and Derry were one goal away from decent wins with part-time (I think?) squads, Cork can't even get a goal, let alone a draw, with a full-time team.

    Quote Originally Posted by Real ale Madrid View Post
    Not sure the point you make here. Valur are still in with a good shout of making rd4 - they look a decent side, since when do Irish clubs look down on a team like this. Dudelange won but that was a one off result, 10 men etc and Legia will still get through that tie. Trnava are an excellent side - have pace and quality that a LOI team can only dream of.
    I saw Valur in Andorra two weeks ago and they were appalling. Now, it could have been a one-off, but they were really, really abject, and Santa Coloma, who had only two wins in 31 European matches prior to that, fully deserved to beat them. That says a lot.

    Trnava are decent, but hardly great. They're Slovakian champions (a good achievement), but they've never made a group stage before, so the comparison with Cork should hardly be that distinct as to write off their result.

    Would Dudelange have won against 11 men? Probably not, but a Legia fan I know was watching the game and said that Legia were a shambles of a club at present who'd wasted their CL money on stupid transfers, and that this was showing on the pitch. So they might well have held on for a draw.

    I just think there's a lot of chances there for Cork to nab a goal, a draw, a decent performance - and they've not done it. Being happy winning the league over making progress in Europe is the same mentality holding the NI clubs back.

    I'm not saying Caulfield should be sacked on the spot here - but I do think the money in Europe is too serious to ignore now, and I do think Cork should be on a general lookout for someone better suited for European progress.
    Last edited by pineapple stu; 10/08/2018 at 10:32 AM.

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  4. #1183
    The Cheeto God Real ale Madrid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple stu View Post
    . Being happy winning the league over making progress in Europe is the same mentality holding the NI clubs back.
    I hate this crap - No one here is happy with our European performances. I was absolutely crestfallen at half time last night, gutted. But I'm not sure we are under-achieving that much either. The manager will have to improve the team and maybe his tactical nous but at the end of the day no matter what you do tactically you have to defend better than we did last night.

    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple stu View Post
    I'm not saying Caulfield should be sacked on the spot here - but I do think the money in Europe is too serious to ignore now, and I do think Cork should be on a general lookout for someone better suited for European progress.
    I think that is mad - Caulfield is clearly a top manager and individual errors will always cost us in Europe. It would be a massive risk to bring in someone else. Caulfield is building something special imo. Consistently getting into Europe brings better opportunities. I'll keep the faith for a while yet.
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  5. #1184
    Seasoned Pro brendy_éire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple stu View Post
    I Being happy winning the league over making progress in Europe is the same mentality holding the NI clubs back.

    I'm not saying Caulfield should be sacked on the spot here - but I do think the money in Europe is too serious to ignore now, and I do think Cork should be on a general lookout for someone better suited for European progress.
    Made me think of the IL as well.
    Cork and Dundalk have been out in front domestically for a few years now, so Europe is next step. Dundalk have done so, to an extent, Cork less so.

    Some Cork fans seem riled that people are having a go at Cork, but it's simply because they've been so successful domestically that we expect more off them in Europe. Akin to Dundalk in Cyrpus, which was a pathetic performance IMO, we're disappointed that Cork haven't performed. I don't think that's a bad thing.
    Yes, a lot comes down to the draw you get, but Cork's record this year is poor.

    I don't think it makes sense to sack Caulfield, but it needs to be looked at come his next contract negotiation. It'd be a positive step for the likes of Cork to be demanding progress in Europe off their manager.
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  7. #1185
    Biased against YOUR club pineapple stu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brendy_éire View Post
    Some Cork fans seem riled that people are having a go at Cork, but it's simply because they've been so successful domestically that we expect more off them in Europe. Akin to Dundalk in Cyrpus, which was a pathetic performance IMO, we're disappointed that Cork haven't performed. I don't think that's a bad thing.
    Yes, that's exactly what I'm trying to say alright. But you've said it better; thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by El-Pietro View Post
    And go back two games and you see we scored six goals. We have struggled to score against teams who are better than us. We are finding the limit of our ability. That is perfectly normal. Certainly not reason to call for the managers head.

    We beat teams worse than us, we struggle against teams better than us. Who doesn't?
    I never said anything about Caufield getting the boot. I find him very negative anytime I hear him talk and he grates me, perhaps I'm biased at this stage but he cant even articulate himself. I definitely see a pattern between articulation, well spoken, versed and a proper management ability. There are many a great man motivator but also many who cant do anything else. And his bluntness on camera(radio etc) shows in his European performances.

    I have no ties to either Cork or Dundalk, but I do find it funny when Cork fans defend their performances on a parallel. There isn't much difference between this Rosenborg team and the one last year, and Dundalk went out in extra time, away from home, and hit the crossbar in the same which would have put them through. Cork were nowhere near Rosenborg last night. So to say that Cork are anywhere near the other Irish teams in Europe is nonsense. And to say dundalk got lukcy one year, but then harp back to beating hacken in their own argument is also nonsense.
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  9. #1187
    International Prospect osarusan's Avatar
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    I don't think the comparisons with the NI league are fair at all. Up there they have players and managers going on holiday rather than going to games. There is an apathy about it which LOI clubs don't have.
    Last edited by osarusan; 10/08/2018 at 12:30 PM.

  10. #1188
    Biased against YOUR club pineapple stu's Avatar
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    I'm not drawing a direct comparison; obviously the North take things to extreme.

    I'm just drawing a small parallel to illustrate a point - European progress is increasingly important

  11. #1189
    Seasoned Pro Ezeikial's Avatar
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    Wink

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr A View Post
    They won the double FFS! They have been top two consistently over a period of years, something the club has never done previously, certainly in anything resembling a sustainable manner. If that is "working to an extent" I don't think you're in much of a position to accuse anyone of being on a wind up or being deluded.
    Wind your neck in a little - you appear to be getting unnecessarily excited around your interpretation of "working to an extent"
    We appear to both agree that the style has worked for Cork

    Despite this much criticised and hard-on-the-eye conservative style employed by Cork City under Caulfield there is no argument that he has been successful since he became manager in 2013. A record of 3 runners-up and one championship in 4 season is impressive and laudable, particular when the 2 cup wins are added - but is still a way off comparison with their main rivals. Hence a reasonable description of "working to an extent" in my opinion.

    Whether you agree or disagree, the point on delusion arose out of the bizarre claim that from a Cork poster: "I don't see any other Irish teams outperforming us in Europe". The two points are mutually exclusive

  12. #1190
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    Quote Originally Posted by Real ale Madrid View Post
    We haven't been negative in Europe this year. We don't have players with the technical ability that Dundalk have for sure - maybe that is down to the manager but this negative nonsense is just that - nonsense. I wouldn't go as far as El-P with the performance thing - but we did as well against the teams we faced as anyone else would have.
    Fair enough - I suppose the description of tactics or approach is a question of interpretation.

    The common shared opinion (including on the Cork fans forum) is that Cork were conservative generally and didn't sufficiently "have a go" in Europe this season or previously

    Quote Originally Posted by Real ale Madrid View Post

    Dundalk and ourselves have been shown up over the past few weeks but I wouldn't be throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Long term progression is still evident. To win any of these ties you have to punch above your weight - and its hard to consistently do that. Dundalk have had more success than us in recent years in doing it - but with the likes of Towell, Horgan & Maguire et al now moving on there was always going to be a re-adjustment. It is what it is.
    Agree with most of that. But to is "it is what it is" implies that it is going to just stay that way.

    It does not have to - I fully Dundalk to work hard to bridge the gap, starting with player recruitment, that appears to have opened up in European terms. Stephen Kenny will also need to look inward in terms of areas like rotation, squad strength and tactical approach - I am hopeful that he will.

  13. #1191
    Youth Team CorribsideSteve's Avatar
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    Caulfield's interview with Tony O'D came across as "Sure look, Rosenborg were always going to beat us. We move on with our lives, it is what it is". Cork, at some point in the future, will need a coach who is a bit more ambitious. You could see after about 70 mins that Cork could be there for 3 weeks straight and still not score. That aspect was the most disappointing of all.

  14. #1192
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    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple stu View Post
    I think that's too simplistic. From a football point of view, you're right of course. From a business point of view, the question is where are the clubs going. Cork's performances are worse in that regard because while Rovers and Derry were one goal away from decent wins with part-time (I think?) squads, Cork can't even get a goal, let alone a draw, with a full-time team.
    Rovers are full time exactly the same as Cork and Dundalk. Derry are full time but not to the same degree.

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  16. #1193
    Seasoned Pro oriel's Avatar
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    So Dundalk, Cork and Rovers all train mornings, offer 52 week contracts but what is the difference with Derry ?

    As I mentioned in another thread, I’m currently on holidays in county cork, was in a rural pub earlier watching the Celtic game, I thought I finally got the Cork & City thing. Guy at the bar asking if a fella next to me was a Cork City man, (I’m in on my own) my ears perked up hoping for a bit of chat about the Rosenberg game.

    The other guy ‘yeah I’m from outside Douglas’
    Last edited by oriel; 15/08/2018 at 8:51 AM.
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    John caufield not saying the obvious.

    "If we can score out here it's game on. We know it's going to be difficult but we've done a lot of work on it and we feel we can create the chance and hopefully take the chance to open the game up.

    "It's not about us having to score in the first 15 or 20 minutes but certainly we have to score. If we can do that. it unsettles people."
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  18. #1195
    Capped Player nigel-harps1954's Avatar
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    I would argue that they really do need to score in the first 20 minutes. Realistically, they'll likely need to be scoring 3, as I think Rosenborg will score.

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    Quote Originally Posted by paul_oshea View Post
    "It's not about us having to score in the first 15 or 20 minutes but certainly we have to score. If we can do that. it unsettles people."
    Good to see a football manager pointing out that you have to score if you want to win a football match.

    I wait impatiently for JC's follow-on career as a top pundit on RTE.

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  21. #1197
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    Quote Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954 View Post
    I would argue that they really do need to score in the first 20 minutes. Realistically, they'll likely need to be scoring 3, as I think Rosenborg will score.
    Well before halftime would be fine, assuming rosenborg haven't scored by then. However I can't see them scoring 1 nevermind 2, and there is nothing to suggest otherwise. Be interested to know what he meant by identifying and working on things.
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  22. #1198
    Biased against YOUR club pineapple stu's Avatar
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    A note again on coefficient ahead of tonight.

    Obviously a win would be good. With a win or a draw, Ireland could pass Moldova back out and go up to 35th. On the flip side, we are looking over our shoulders to 41st. Results to keep an eye out on from tonight are -

    Moldova 0.050 ahead of us - Sheriff are away to Valur
    Finland 0.175 behind us - HJK have just gone 1-0 down to Olympija Ljubljana after 25 minutes
    Albania 0.200 behind us - Kukesi at home to Kutaisi
    Bosnia 0.450 behind us - Zrinski Mostar at home to Ludogirets Razgrad, and need to overturn a 1-0 deficit to get more points in the next round
    Iceland 0.450 behind us - Valur at home to Sheriff and are 1-0 up from the away leg
    Lithuania 0.950 behind us but have two teams left. Suduva at home to Spartaks of Latvia and 1-0 up from the away leg, while Zalgiris Vilnius are at home to Sevilla and 1-0 down from the away leg.

    As before, national coefficient is less important these days; it arguably affects the Youth League most.

  23. #1199
    Biased against YOUR club pineapple stu's Avatar
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    Also, a random score - Progres Niederkorn 2-1 FC Ufa with 15 to go. Going to extra time as it stands. Dudelange resuming 2-1 up against Legia shortly. Some decent results for Luxembourg sides lately

  24. #1200
    First Team ger121's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple stu View Post
    Also, a random score - Progres Niederkorn 2-1 FC Ufa with 15 to go. Going to extra time as it stands. Dudelange resuming 2-1 up against Legia shortly. Some decent results for Luxembourg sides lately
    Think it all really started for them the year (was it Dudelange?) knocked out RB Salzberg. One of the few countries they do struggle against is us!

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