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  1. #161
    Seasoned Pro NeverFeltBetter's Avatar
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    The general issue I've had with VAR during the WWC has been how slow its been, sometimes for things that should need just one look at replay monitor, if even that. There are plenty of decisions that the VAR official should be able to adjudicate on without the need for the ref to run off the field for minutes at a time.

    At the same time, since of the commentary on it, especially from the likes of George Hamilton, has verged close to hysteria. Marginal or not, VAR has spotted things refs and linesmen havent or aren't able to. That semi offside is the perfect example, as was the penalty England botched later in the half.

    Refs - especially, if I may dare to say so, female refs - need more time and experience with VAR, so they learn to use it effectively, not excessively, and that it's an assist, not a crutch.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple stu View Post
    Maybe "clear and obvious" is something you can spot at normal speed?

    I agree that a lot of what's being picked up is not clear and obvious. England's disallowed goal in the semis for example - I think it was offside, but it was very marginal, and far from "clear and obvious"
    Offside isn't one of the 'clear and obvious' things though - it's either offside or not. The ref doesn't even check the video themselves for offside.

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  4. #163
    Biased against YOUR club pineapple stu's Avatar
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    Hmm. The ref did check the video in this case though?

    I've seen some decisions communicated to the ref by earpiece which I think works ok. But I still think ruining the moment of goals takes away more than getting decisions millimetre correct.

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    As the ref remains the final arbiter on everything, think they can review anything they want, even if it is as obvious as an offside call.

    VAR used quite well today. Shocking error by the Dutch defender that the ref was unsighted for. Ref could have gone to VAR for other things, but didn't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple stu View Post
    Hmm. The ref did check the video in this case though?
    Did the referee go to the sidelines to check a monitor? My memory is that the offside was just communicated to her and she never checked. I may just have forgotten though.

    The late disallowed goal for Man City against Spurs in the CL is an example though, given as offside without the ref going over to check the monitor.

    I saw something interesting on the BBC about VAR in the premier league next season.

    Here's a quote from Mike Riley:
    He said, as an example, that the winning penalty for the Netherlands against Japan at the Women's World Cup would not have been awarded in the Premier League.

    "We consider that to be a natural position of the hand. You don't expect defenders to have their arms glued to their side, so if the hand is in a natural position then it's not an offence," he said.
    I've thought the handball laws are way too harsh, so I'm pleased to read that, but on the other hand, the interpretations of laws really should be universal (even if that won't ever be possible), and I'm surprised to see him say it so openly.

  7. #166
    Seasoned Pro NeverFeltBetter's Avatar
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    Riley has some welcome comments to make generally, especially on ref's trusting what VAR officials are telling them, but I guess we'll see how likely his "delay of game only once in five matches" will be.
    Author of Never Felt Better (History, Film Reviews).

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    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple stu
    Hmm. The ref did check the video in this case though?

    I've seen some decisions communicated to the ref by earpiece which I think works ok. But I still think ruining the moment of goals takes away more than getting decisions millimetre correct.
    It was not a goal, so there's nothing to ruin. It was offside, the tv camera picked it up, and the final decision was therefore clear and obvious. That's the way it should be and it has to be. The ref did not check the video. The VAR team can judge offside calls from their base.

    The Maradona attempt to con the referee v Sweden didn't work, because unlike in 1986, handballs can now be spotted and dealt with on the spot, therefore referees won't be banned for life, as happened back then. You may only score valid goals at the highest levels of the game from now on.

    Despite all the penalties awarded, it's amazing that the use of VAR has effectively eliminated simulation in the penalty area. We don't talk about dives winning penalties anymore, now that players realise there is a camera following their every move and they can't do it anymore.

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    Players will still simulate though, even if they don't outright "dive". Sarah Morgan in the first half of the WWC Final took a nudge in the back while in the Dutch penalty area and fell somewhat theatrically. The ref told her to get on with it, and there was no VAR check as far as I could tell. Looking at the TV replays I did wonder if, by the letter of the law, a penalty would have been awarded if it had gone to VAR.
    Author of Never Felt Better (History, Film Reviews).

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    I didn't think it was a dive, there was contact, so I was surprised it didn't go to VAR. A theatrical fall is not an automatic dive. Eventually the Dutch physicality went too far, and VAR spotted the foul that brought about the penalty. That is what it's there for.

  11. #170
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    If only we had it when we really needed it in Paris, or Brussels, or Gelsenkirchen...

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  13. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by mypost View Post
    It was not a goal, so there's nothing to ruin. It was offside, the tv camera picked it up, and the final decision was therefore clear and obvious.
    I think this is almost autistic-like in terms of missing the point. It was a goal - for I would say 90 seconds, it was a goal. I stand corrected that the TV wasn't checked, but it took over two minutes for the goal to be ruled out. For the first minute of that, it wasn't even apparent there was a problem. So the goal was celebrated as per normal, then celebrations started dying down, and only then was there an issue flagged. Then another delay, and finally the goal is ruled out.

    Previously, the goal would have been legal because the rules stated that the attacker should be given the benefit of doubt in narrow offside cases. So it would have been a perfectly legit goal.

    I would argue the game has lost something by virtue of adding in long delays in the game in order to check something which it already had rules for. I've previously said I don't mind offside or other decisions being checked in effectively real time with a TV crew, as has happened at times in fairness. But these huge delays will ruin the game.

    BTW, VAR I think would have done nothing for Brussels, because the throw was a separate passage of play. However, in the interests of balance, you have to include things like the decisive second goal v Hungary in 1989, which was a blatant free out. Would VAR have ruled out the goal? Would Hungary have equalised? Would things have changed so ultimately they qualified for Italia 90? Is it really relevant whether it did or not? Football is about the moment, and this tedious drive towards absolute correctness could come at the expense of what makes the game great in the first place.

    Clarification that the Japan handball is nonsense is to be welcomed of course.

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    It's not nonsense. The arm was out, making herself bigger, unnatural position etc. It's a clearcut penalty imo, and I would personally expect most on field refs to give it, as that one did. The incident is analysed in minute detail, in the referee press conference during the tournament.

    The ball was out of play in Brussels in the build up, so we were robbed of a chance to play in that World Cup. I have watched the goal v Hungary many times down the years, I have never seen any foul. We finished 4 points clear of them in the group.

    With VAR, there is zero tolerance with offsides, even in England. If it is offside it will be, and is, spotted. It may only be an inch, but it's as good as a mile. It's still offside. The provisional decision was to allow the goal. Even before the ball went in, I wasn't sure it was onside. Once we all discovered what really happened, the final decision was clear and obvious, and automatic.

    Every goal with or without VAR in operation, has been and is, provisional until play resumes. It's true that we are losing something with VAR. We're losing wrong decisions, that have blighted the game since the year dot. Nowadays, referees don't just get "one look" at a decision, they are able to see all the evidence they need to, and make an informed judgement. Now teams win or lose on merit, not from an official's mistake, as in most sports across the world.

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    I'm 100% supportive of using VAR for offside and, by its nature, it's going to be marginal a lot of the time. Why should the attacker get the benefit for almost timing their run right?

    I did feel it lost the run of itself in the WWC a bit though for other decisions.

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    Biased against YOUR club pineapple stu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeLorean View Post
    I'm 100% supportive of using VAR for offside and, by its nature, it's going to be marginal a lot of the time. Why should the attacker get the benefit for almost timing their run right?
    Because if the alternative is that we have a minute of celebrating a goal and settling back for tip, and only then realising that something's wrong, and then another minute to review it, meaning the whole emotion and pace of the game goes out the window, then it's by far the lesser of two evils.

    And again, I have seen some offside decisions given by earpiece to the refs very quickly, and I don't mind that.

    Though you'd wonder how long it'd be before offside could be done electronically? It would struggle with interfering with play (as maybe we all do!), but could the linesman get a ping in his ear when a pass is made to say "Green 9 off"? The linesman would then just need to decide if Green 9 is interfering with play

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    Quote Originally Posted by mypost View Post
    It's not nonsense. The arm was out, making herself bigger, unnatural position etc. It's a clearcut penalty imo, and I would personally expect most on field refs to give it, as that one did. The incident is analysed in minute detail, in the referee press conference during the tournament.
    The one where her arm is right down beside her side as the ball is slammed at her from a few yards away? Daft if that's a penalty.

    Quote Originally Posted by mypost View Post
    The ball was out of play in Brussels in the build up, so we were robbed of a chance to play in that World Cup.
    Well we weren't going through as it stood, so we were technically robbed of nothing - as in France actually.

    But my point is that does VAR go back to previous plays? I'm not sure it would have extended back to the decision to give the throw. How far back could it go otherwise? The previous throw decision? The previous one again?

    Quote Originally Posted by mypost View Post
    I have watched the goal v Hungary many times down the years, I have never seen any foul.
    Here's a hint - the bit where Houghton sticks his hand out and pushes the guy in the back. It's quite blatant.

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    I don't need a hint, I just don't see the foul.

    The incident in Brussels was part of the same move that led to the goal seconds later, so VAR would investigate it. It's not a different play, as such. Unfortunately, we didn't have it then, so the ref didn't see it, play was allowed to continue and the goal that resulted, knocked us out of the World Cup.

    A similar throw in question was investigated by VAR for the Holland-Japan penalty. Throw in calls are checked if they're part of the same move. The ball was found to be in play so the penalty for a clear handball stood. Under the current rules, any handball by a forward or defensive player, is liable to be penalised.

    Part of the delay for the England-USA incident, was due to a sub made by the USA while the VAR check was in progress. Everyone was aware before the tournament, that every goal scored is subject to VAR confirmation. The time it takes is not important to me, all I want is the correct decision, and I'm prepared to wait as long as it takes, for it to be made. We cannot restrict VAR to offside calls, as doing so would bring back diving again. Now the resources are available to clean up mistakes, and the dark arts out of football, we must use them. We must have justice on a football pitch.

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    Biased against YOUR club pineapple stu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mypost View Post
    I don't need a hint, I just don't see the foul.
    Then you're blind. Seriously. Houghton gives the defender a little shove in the back and he falls over. The goal killed Hungary; if it doesn't happen, they could have come back to win the game and then they finish level with us and could take our place. It's hypothetical of course - but so are your examples in Brussels and Paris, neither of which cost us a place in the World Cup.

    And this is the point - what goes around, comes around.

    The time it takes is not important to me, all I want is the correct decision, and I'm prepared to wait as long as it takes, for it to be made.
    If that's what you want, then fine.

    But it'll ruin the experience of the game. And that's more important than being correct.

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    No it's not, that's why it's here. It enhances the game. Cheating and wrong decisions ruin football, that other sports don't have to put up with.

    There is no similiarity in the consequences. We were already winning against Hungary at the time of the incident. We were level with Belgium at the time the illegal goal was scored, that decided the game and knocked us out of the World Cup. Ditto Paris.

    Everybody wants football, even with VAR. With it, they will leave the stadium knowing that all the major decisions were correct, as they should be. So they won't be talking about wrong decisions given against their team 30+ years later.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple stu View Post
    Because if the alternative is that we have a minute of celebrating a goal and settling back for tip, and only then realising that something's wrong, and then another minute to review it, meaning the whole emotion and pace of the game goes out the window, then it's by far the lesser of two evils.
    We're miles apart on this. I don't see it as the lesser of the two evils at all. The only evil in my view is the wrong decision being made, but clearly the whole thing needs to be tidied up a bit. It's still early days though.

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    International Prospect osarusan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple stu View Post
    But it'll ruin the experience of the game. And that's more important than being correct.
    I can't agree with this. Getting the big things right has to be the first priority.

    At the moment it is impacting on the experience of the game, but people will just get used to it, as they have done with rugby and American football.

    At the moment, for anything subjective the on-field ref will leave the pitch and check the monitor. This is part of ensuring that the ref still has the final authority over decisions, and it also causes a lot of the delay. But I wouldn't be surprised if, in a few years, that aspect is done away with, and all calls are made by the VAR team.
    Last edited by osarusan; 12/07/2019 at 9:32 AM.

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