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Thread: VAR Discussion

  1. #41
    International Prospect osarusan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple stu View Post
    In fairness, if the definition of offside is "clear daylight", that still means it's possible have as close a call as the Mata one. If there's clear daylight between the players except for the attacker's trailing foot, is that offside?

    A close offside is a close offside however it's defined.
    Define clear daylight. I don't think it is easy to do, and the example you give shows that.

    For VAR to work with (the usual) offsides, I think they will just draw a line across the pitch along the part of the defender's body that is closest to his own goal, and if any part of the attacker's body (apart from arms) is beyond that line, even if it just an inch of his boot or knee or nose, it will be offside.

    I think it would be the easiest and most consistent way of doing it, but it certainly doesn't give the benefit of the doubt to attackers. There would be no more benefit of the doubt.

  2. #42
    Capped Player OwlsFan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by osarusan View Post
    Define clear daylight. I don't think it is easy to do, and the example you give shows that.

    For VAR to work with (the usual) offsides, I think they will just draw a line across the pitch along the part of the defender's body that is closest to his own goal, and if any part of the attacker's body (apart from arms) is beyond that line, even if it just an inch of his boot or knee or nose, it will be offside.

    I think it would be the easiest and most consistent way of doing it, but it certainly doesn't give the benefit of the doubt to attackers. There would be no more benefit of the doubt.
    Wouldn't it be simpler to say if any part of the attacker was beyond any part of the last defender? Make life easier ?
    Forget about the performance or entertainment. It's only the result that matters.

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  4. #43
    International Prospect osarusan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OwlsFan View Post
    Wouldn't it be simpler to say if any part of the attacker was beyond any part of the last defender? Make life easier ?
    That is what I said, or at least, was trying to say. There is an exception made in the rulebook for the hands and arms though, as you can't score goals with them.

  5. #44
    International Prospect NeverFeltBetter's Avatar
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    In regards this kind of thing, there's also potential for offside flags to become something similar to thrown flags in American Football, in that play will continue until the ball goes dead/the attack stops. Otherwise, you could have a situation where the flag goes up, the defenders stop, the attacker keeps going, scores, and VAR then declares he was onside the whole time and the goal stands, to the annoyance of the stopped defenders. But then how long should play be allowed to develop? Would every offside have to be checked?

    Which is why I again think that a challenge system is the way to go.
    Author of Never Felt Better (History, Film Reviews).

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    Capped Player DeLorean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OwlsFan View Post
    Wouldn't it be simpler to say if any part of the attacker was beyond any part of the last defender? Make life easier ?
    Or the opposite, if any part of the last defender is in line with any part of the attacker then it's onside. That gives the benefit to the attacker and makes things just as straight forward for the linesman. It's basically the daylight rule worded another way. It's cat the way it is I think.

  7. #46
    International Prospect osarusan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeLorean View Post
    Or the opposite, if any part of the last defender is in line with any part of the attacker then it's onside. That gives the benefit to the attacker and makes things just as straight forward for the linesman. It's basically the daylight rule worded another way. It's cat the way it is I think.
    So, as an example, this would be onside? Because of the position of the left foot of the defender nearest the bottom of the screen:



    I don't think that is any easier for the linesman at all, If anything, I'd say it's more difficult in real time, as the overlap between defender and attacker might be much smaller (just heels, say). And with VAR, any rule should be easy to apply with time and technology.

    EDIT: Here is another one - too big to embed, so just click here. Ignore the 3 Argentineans who are offside by any measure, and just look at the one whose heel is in line with the side/shoulder of the German defender at the other end of the area. Offside or not?

    Anyway, whatever it is, as long as it's consistent it should eventually work, and defenders and attackers will adapt.
    Last edited by osarusan; 20/02/2018 at 2:23 PM.

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    Capped Player DeLorean's Avatar
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    Yeah, they're both onside under the criteria of my last post. The second one would be particularly difficult to call I accept, but there are going to be tough calls either way and these will always go to the VAR anyway, I assume. Why not actually give the benefit to the attacker, instead of paying lip service to the notion? Linesmen might get into the habit of keeping the flag down unless they're very sure it's offside, I wouldn't have a problem with that.

  9. #48
    International Prospect osarusan's Avatar
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    Hard for me to consider the second example as onside, but, whatever the rule is, as long as it's consistently applied, VAR should work.

    With your rules, I think we'd see a lot of incorrect calls initially at least, but then it shouldn't be based on which calls linesmen are most likely to get right live. And as neverfeltbetter said earlier, we might see things develop whereby there is a tendency to play on unless absolutely certain, and then go back to check.

  10. #49
    Capped Player DeLorean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by osarusan View Post
    Hard for me to consider the second example as onside
    Fair enough, I find it hard to consider Mata offside because of a kneecap, but that's just the way it is.

  11. #50
    Biased against YOUR club pineapple stu's Avatar
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    Dutch side sue FA over wrong VAR decision - https://www.fourfourtwo.com/features...gly-interferes

    [Quote]a controversy has developed in Holland after a recent cup game between Roda JC and Willem II. With the score 2-2, VAR stepped in to disallow a Roda goal (which would have put them ahead 3-2) on account of a handball.

    Incorrectly, they insist, because the VAR's authority only relates to the moment during which the goal was actually scored, not the passage of play which preceded it - and, to be fair, they have a point [\quote]
    Tis no secret I don't like the VAR, but I can't really blame it for this. Clubs need a root up the hole at times; this is akin to suing because a referee got a decision wrong. Though it does raise the question as to how far back does the VAR go?

  12. #51
    International Prospect NeverFeltBetter's Avatar
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    Roda taking the **** a bit for sure, but the silver lining is that VAR, still such a relatively new system, will have its role more readily defined going forward. It's all growing pains.

    I think it's reasonable for the build-up to a goal to be subject to challenge if something illegal is alleged to have occurred. You could even put a time-limit on it - say, 10-15 seconds - after which you could argue the defending team have had ample opportunity to prevent a resulting goal.
    Author of Never Felt Better (History, Film Reviews).

  13. #52
    International Prospect NeverFeltBetter's Avatar
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    IFAB meeting this weekend to make a more long-term decision on VAR: http://www.bbc.com/sport/football/43202295

    UEFA President sounds none too impressed, though it's claimed the system has been "98.9%" accurate. It won't be used in the CPL in the near future.
    Author of Never Felt Better (History, Film Reviews).

  14. #53
    International Prospect osarusan's Avatar
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    Anybody watching Spurs Rochdale? A VAR critic's dream!

    Goal disallowed for clear and obvious foul, analysts don't think it was.

    Spurs player 3 yards outside the box feels an arm on his shoulder pulling him back...waits until he gets into the box and then fall over. Apparently it's a penalty as the foul continued into the box (I don't see why it's more of a penalty than a free kick in this instance tbh).

    Then Son shuffles/pauses while taking the penalty, it gets disallowed and he gets a booking for the shuffle. I actually thought shuffling/pausing was allowed as long as it wasn't on the step that involved striking the ball. That went to VAR, and a free out was given. Rochdale go up the other end and score almost immediately - that one goes to VAR too (briefly) to check for offside.

    5 mins additional time at the end of the half.
    Last edited by osarusan; 28/02/2018 at 8:46 PM.

  15. #54
    Biased against YOUR club pineapple stu's Avatar
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    There's an excellent article in the current issue of When Saturday Comes on the VAR (and by "excellent", I mean it agrees with my viewpoint). It describes the Liverpool v West Brom Cup tie as "farcical" due to the number of VAR decisions, which both ruined the flow of the game for those in the ground and apparently caused the officials to start doubting themselves, leading to more VAR calls (both issues I've raised before)

    It ends with the paragraph -

    But a lack of perspective about football and its importance is the critical problem. By succumbing to one-eyed appeals for fairness because there is now more money riding on the outcome of matches than ever, we hold unrealistic expectations and the misguided sense that any of this actually matters. It really doesn't
    It's a really well-written article, even if you don't agree with the above conclusion, which is at the core of the author's view.

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  17. #55
    International Prospect NeverFeltBetter's Avatar
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    Don't think any VAR advocate would seriously stand over the level of usage in a few minutes as demonstrated in tonight's game. Think it's clear the system should be reined in and, knowing I am a broken record on the subject, a challenge system would do that.

    And I don't want to judge the WSC article on the basis of a single paragraph, but I don't agree with this "It doesn't matter" argument. To them and you maybe. It matters to me and others.
    Author of Never Felt Better (History, Film Reviews).

  18. #56
    International Prospect osarusan's Avatar
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    It's not really connected to VAR, but it seems that the decision to disallow Son's penalty was correct. I am still confused - feinting is allowed during the run-up, but not after the run-up has been completed. So, when is a run-up completed? After all his feinting, Son still had to take one more step, and plant his left foot, before striking the ball with his right.

    I would have thought the run-up was completed when that final planting of the non-striking foot took place, but it must be earlier than that. I couldn't find a definition/law for it.

  19. #57
    Biased against YOUR club pineapple stu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NeverFeltBetter View Post
    And I don't want to judge the WSC article on the basis of a single paragraph, but I don't agree with this "It doesn't matter" argument. To them and you maybe. It matters to me and others.
    That's fair enough. To me, the hint is in the word "game" or "sport"; I think society gets too hooked up on reflected self-worth from sport in particular.

    But try this passage from Uwe Rösler, manager of Wigan -
    My opinion is don't complicate the game - it's beautiful as it is. People try to make it different for some reason. I don't like it; it interrupts the flow.
    Anyways, have a read of the article because, whether you agree with it or disagree, it's a very well-written piece.

    osarusan's post on the penalty retake is interesting - and coupled with the issue of whether Mata was offside by a kneecap, it raises the question as to whether VAR is just going to mean the same disputes as before, but at a more atomic level. Is that really what we want?

  20. #58
    International Prospect NeverFeltBetter's Avatar
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    It might lead them to just clarify that no feinting is allowed, full stop. For me, it seemed plain that the run-up was every movement until your non-kicking foot was planted before your kicking foot kicked the ball. But maybe ref's have received different instructions at some point?
    Author of Never Felt Better (History, Film Reviews).

  21. #59
    International Prospect NeverFeltBetter's Avatar
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    IFAB backs VAR, formal decision on whether it will be used in Russia on the 15th March, seems likely: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/...180935214.html

    Spain and France will both be using the system in their leagues next year.

    Edit: Also introducing a 4th sub for extra time it seems.
    Author of Never Felt Better (History, Film Reviews).

  22. #60
    International Prospect osarusan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple stu View Post

    osarusan's post on the penalty retake is interesting - and coupled with the issue of whether Mata was offside by a kneecap, it raises the question as to whether VAR is just going to mean the same disputes as before, but at a more atomic level. Is that really what we want?
    The ref did go to VAR for the penalty, but I'm not sure why - to check that the feinting took place after the run-up was complete? But in that case, there must be a definition of 'run-up completed' somewhere, and it should have been emphasised more in commentary (they had some ex-Premier League ref there as an analyst also).

    We have all seen feinting being allowed during penalties, so what was so different about Son's penalty?

    EDIT: This article goes into a bit of detail about it and how vague that law is: https://cartilagefreecaptain.sbnatio...llowed-penalty
    Last edited by osarusan; 05/03/2018 at 8:15 PM.

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