Page 2 of 10 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 191

Thread: VAR Discussion

  1. #21
    International Prospect osarusan's Avatar
    Joined
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Limerick for now.
    Posts
    7,327
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    1,121
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    1,530
    Thanked in
    841 Posts
    As long as the outcome is correct, I think it's acceptable (and unavoidable).

    Certain moments in a game potentially being rendered invalid when an earlier incident is revisited will eventually just become part of the game.

  2. #22
    Seasoned Pro NeverFeltBetter's Avatar
    Joined
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Gouldavoher
    Posts
    4,114
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    223
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    582
    Thanked in
    397 Posts
    Seeing as how Viteese would be the wronged party in this instance - being denied a penalty that should have been awarded - I feel we should be more concerned about doing justice by them than preserving a sense of drama for a team taking advantage of an officiating error (not that Feyenoord's players did anything wrong in playing the whistle, but that doesn't mean they should be rewarded either).
    Author of Never Felt Better (History, Film Reviews).

  3. #23
    Capped Player DeLorean's Avatar
    Joined
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Hill Valley
    Posts
    10,190
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    3,825
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    2,927
    Thanked in
    1,875 Posts

    'Expected goals' tells us whether a player really should have scored

    Interesting study here from the BBC - http://www.bbc.com/sport/football/40699431

  4. #24
    Seasoned Pro NeverFeltBetter's Avatar
    Joined
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Gouldavoher
    Posts
    4,114
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    223
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    582
    Thanked in
    397 Posts
    Is this the unofficial VAR thread?

    Tested competitively in England midweek for the FA Cup, League Cup, and again next week for FA Cup replays. A fairly easy intro for the system with nothing really controversial - a few penalty shouts last night, a claimed handball waved away on Monday, etc. The obvious concerns are being repeated every time though:

    1. The amount of time it takes to get a decision checked, and knock-on effects this causes on the rest of the game - No easy fix, aside from officials getting quicker with the system the more its used.
    2. Communication on what's happening to fans in attendance and fans watching at home - Rugby style mikes seem obvious solution, but officials will presumably resist this.
    3. On-pitch ref having final say on everything - Some have noted that if the VAR can be ignored by the refs it will cause disrepute. Perhaps VAR should only be involved if asked specifically by the ref?
    4. Players/managers calling for VAR referrals - Make it a bookable offence or introduce a challenge system.

    They need to make some decisions on this stuff to make VAR better quick, or else the system will be eviscerated at the World Cup.
    Author of Never Felt Better (History, Film Reviews).

  5. #25
    International Prospect osarusan's Avatar
    Joined
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Limerick for now.
    Posts
    7,327
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    1,121
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    1,530
    Thanked in
    841 Posts
    After the (on-field) ref has called for a review, I don't see any reason why the referee/person doing the review can't relay the fact to the crowd through a message/symbol on a scoreboard.

  6. #26
    Seasoned Pro NeverFeltBetter's Avatar
    Joined
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Gouldavoher
    Posts
    4,114
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    223
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    582
    Thanked in
    397 Posts
    More problems tonight, over a penalty call that either:
    A: the ref refused to send to VAR/refuses to listen to VAR
    B: that the VAR didn't spot.

    More convinced that team instigated challenges are the way to go here. Puts the onus on managers, or captains maybe, and away from the refs. I hope that gets trialled somewhere before the WC.

  7. #27
    International Prospect osarusan's Avatar
    Joined
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Limerick for now.
    Posts
    7,327
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    1,121
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    1,530
    Thanked in
    841 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by NeverFeltBetter View Post
    More problems tonight, over a penalty call that either:
    A: the ref refused to send to VAR/refuses to listen to VAR
    B: that the VAR didn't spot.

    More convinced that team instigated challenges are the way to go here. Puts the onus on managers, or captains maybe, and away from the refs. I hope that gets trialled somewhere before the WC.
    I wouldn't be a fan of team challenges, unless there are strict criteria. I'd imagine that at virtually any corner, the attacking team could ask for a review for holding in the box which would be a penalty.

    The problem with VAR in football is that it is being used for stuff that is inherently subjective, like whether a tackle was a foul or not, rather than whether a ball was in or out, caught or not, grounded or not etc. It's not unusual for pundits on tv to still disagree on whether something was a penalty or not, even after watching all the replays, so I don't think the VAR would be any better. When it comes to penalties it's there, like it is in cricket for LBW, to see if there has been a clear and obvious error, rather than simply asking what the right decision should be.

    Incidentally, I was delighted to see Morata get the yellow card for abusing the ref, I'd love to see that happen more often.

  8. #28
    Seasoned Pro CraftyToePoke's Avatar
    Joined
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    3,825
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    942
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    679
    Thanked in
    449 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by NeverFeltBetter View Post
    More problems tonight, over a penalty call that either:
    A: the ref refused to send to VAR/refuses to listen to VAR
    B: that the VAR didn't spot.

    More convinced that team instigated challenges are the way to go here. Puts the onus on managers, or captains maybe, and away from the refs. I hope that gets trialled somewhere before the WC.
    Its weaknesses were on show tonight alright, and after such a good showing the previous night in the Leicester match for the offside goal.


    Maybe a team manager an have a pre determined number of interventions per game or something, like time outs are used. I would agree, it needs to be taken away from the players en masse because you can already see where its going with them beginning to brandish imaginary tellies like they do red cards and that will become standard every time they feel somethings not gone their way.

  9. #29
    Seasoned Pro NeverFeltBetter's Avatar
    Joined
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Gouldavoher
    Posts
    4,114
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    223
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    582
    Thanked in
    397 Posts
    Oh, I agree completely about limits. Two a game per side maybe.

  10. #30
    Biased against YOUR club pineapple stu's Avatar
    Joined
    Aug 2002
    Location
    In the long grass
    Posts
    30,417
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    1,374
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    2,696
    Thanked in
    1,677 Posts
    Another dodgy VAR call today - Manchester United with a seemingly perfectly good goal ruled out against Huddersfield. Apparently this was what the VAR produced to check the offside -



    The linesman had gotten the call correct initially - but surely it undermines the entire point of video replays the decisions being made are so clearly wrong?

    It'd also be a concern if decisions like this - a simple offside call - are being subject to VAR as it could lead to a huge percentage of goals being double-checked, which would completely ruin the emotion of the goal in the first place.

    You can watch the goal in real time here

  11. Thanks From:


  12. #31
    Seasoned Pro NeverFeltBetter's Avatar
    Joined
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Gouldavoher
    Posts
    4,114
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    223
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    582
    Thanked in
    397 Posts
    Is it wrong? Dodgy image for sure. Don't know what that's about. But it looks to me like this knee and head are ahead of the last defender.

    https://metrouk2.files.wordpress.com...0&h=462&crop=1

    Barely, but barely or not doesn't matter. It's my understanding that if a part of your body you can score with is in that position, the flag should be raised.

    But those lines... had the system been calibrated correctly? Strange issue to be inherent in the system, if so.

  13. #32
    Biased against YOUR club pineapple stu's Avatar
    Joined
    Aug 2002
    Location
    In the long grass
    Posts
    30,417
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    1,374
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    2,696
    Thanked in
    1,677 Posts
    Is that the exact moment when the ball was played though?

    It looks it - but was it half a frame further back? TV replays can't - by definition - deal in half a frame (which I presume is 1/48th of a second, unless they're using high-speed cameras) 1/48th of a second doesn't sound like much, but it's easily enough for a player to move an inch or two - which I think we can agree is all that's in the call. (For example, two players running in opposite directions at Olympic 100m speed, which clearly isn't what happened here, would move by 16 inches relative to each other in 1/48th of a second)

    There used to be a bit in the offside rule about the benefit of the doubt going with the attacking player; I can't find that in the current guidelines. I think it would apply here though, if it is still there.

    I'm also curious as to who called for the replay. The referee should surely trust his linesman as he had by far the better view. Did the linesman then ask for his call to be double-checked? And are we going to get to a position where goals are going to be double-checked as a matter of routine, like how tries are routinely checked in rugby? That would be an absolute disaster.

  14. #33
    International Prospect osarusan's Avatar
    Joined
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Limerick for now.
    Posts
    7,327
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    1,121
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    1,530
    Thanked in
    841 Posts
    An absolute disaster? Why?

    I understand the argument that the pause while checking a goal deflates the atmosphere, but if it can be done quickly, I think it is a price worth paying.

    I would be more concerned about reviews for holding or grabbing in the area, which could really result in a penalty or free out from every single corner.

    I actually think VAR will work best with offside, because it is, for the most part, a purely visual decision, rather than a decision where a player has felt the slightest of contact and thrown themselves to the ground, which is a subjective decision.
    Last edited by osarusan; 18/02/2018 at 9:21 AM.

  15. #34
    Biased against YOUR club pineapple stu's Avatar
    Joined
    Aug 2002
    Location
    In the long grass
    Posts
    30,417
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    1,374
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    2,696
    Thanked in
    1,677 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by osarusan View Post
    An absolute disaster? Why?

    I understand the argument that the pause while checking a goal deflates the atmosphere, but if it can be done quickly, I think it is a price worth paying.
    I think the indications so far are that it can't be done quickly enough.

    I remember when St Ledger scored against Croatia in the Euros, there was a whistle in the crowd just before St Ledger got his head to the ball. I - and a few others in the bar around me - thought the ref had given a free out. When we realised - just a few seconds later - that the goal had stood, our reaction was way more muted than if the whistle hadn't gone.

    Maybe I'm biased by that experience, but that completely killed the goal for me. And that's the way other goals will go as well. I don't think it's a price worth paying.

  16. #35
    Seasoned Pro NeverFeltBetter's Avatar
    Joined
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Gouldavoher
    Posts
    4,114
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    223
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    582
    Thanked in
    397 Posts
    Its a fair point regards when the ball was played and frames per second. But for the weird issue with the image displayed id be inclined to trust the machine over the human eye of the linesman though.

    In line with my issue with the lack of communication to fans, I think the FA should make a statement on this incident to at least explain why the image was so off.

    For what is worth, Mata in the post match interview indicated his approval for video refs,and id love to see more players canvassed on risk attitude.

  17. #36
    Coach BonnieShels's Avatar
    Joined
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Elm Valley, Blackpool
    Posts
    11,845
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    2,238
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    2,566
    Thanked in
    1,768 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple stu View Post
    I think the indications so far are that it can't be done quickly enough.

    I remember when St Ledger scored against Croatia in the Euros, there was a whistle in the crowd just before St Ledger got his head to the ball. I - and a few others in the bar around me - thought the ref had given a free out. When we realised - just a few seconds later - that the goal had stood, our reaction was way more muted than if the whistle hadn't gone.

    Maybe I'm biased by that experience, but that completely killed the goal for me. And that's the way other goals will go as well. I don't think it's a price worth paying.
    I had the exact same experience in Poznan. Such a shame given it was the only bloody goal we scored.
    DID YOU NOTICE A SIGN OUTSIDE MY HOUSE...?

  18. #37
    Seasoned Pro NeverFeltBetter's Avatar
    Joined
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Gouldavoher
    Posts
    4,114
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    223
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    582
    Thanked in
    397 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by NeverFeltBetter View Post

    In line with my issue with the lack of communication to fans, I think the FA should make a statement on this incident to at least explain why the image was so off.
    The company made a statement: https://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2018...nky-var-lines/

    They claim that the VAR and TV audience were shown two different images, and appear to stand over the call.
    Author of Never Felt Better (History, Film Reviews).

  19. Thanks From:


  20. #38
    Capped Player DeLorean's Avatar
    Joined
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Hill Valley
    Posts
    10,190
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    3,825
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    2,927
    Thanked in
    1,875 Posts
    They'll get VAR to a good place eventually I'm sure, it's absolutely necessary in my opinion and there'll always be far more goals that don't need to be reviewed (such as Lukaku's two in the same game). It looks like they got the Mata one correct, by hook or by crook!

    The biggest issue for me is the stupidity of the offside rule and differentiating between various body parts! Remember the 'daylight' rule? That was far more clear cut and also benefited the attacker. This body parts nonsense must be a nightmare for linesmen.

  21. #39
    International Prospect osarusan's Avatar
    Joined
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Limerick for now.
    Posts
    7,327
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    1,121
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    1,530
    Thanked in
    841 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by DeLorean View Post

    The biggest issue for me is the stupidity of the offside rule and differentiating between various body parts! Remember the 'daylight' rule? That was far more clear cut and also benefited the attacker. This body parts nonsense must be a nightmare for linesmen.
    I think that however it is defined, there will be instances that make it look worse than others. I actually think it is ok right now. I think a body part is more objectively identifiable than 'clear daylight'.

    I know what you mean about the body parts thing making it a nightmare for linesmen, but I'd say even more so for the video ref. The main concern will be that drawing VAR lines will mean we have to consider it more forensically. If an inch of a player's kneecap is beyond the line, is that offside? 3 inches? 6 inches? Pardon the pun, but where do we draw the line? Prior to VAR, it was all a bit less defined -even if the slow-motion replays showed how tight it was, the decision was already made.

    I think though that the Lovren/Kane non-offside of a few matches ago showed how that aspect of the law needs to be revised.

    I'm against the idea of appeals (unless very very narrow limits are given on what can be appealed) because, as I said eariler, I think there could be penalties or free kicks against the attacking side appealed for and given at every corner.
    Last edited by osarusan; 19/02/2018 at 3:54 PM.

  22. Thanks From:


  23. #40
    Biased against YOUR club pineapple stu's Avatar
    Joined
    Aug 2002
    Location
    In the long grass
    Posts
    30,417
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    1,374
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    2,696
    Thanked in
    1,677 Posts
    In fairness, if the definition of offside is "clear daylight", that still means it's possible have as close a call as the Mata one. If there's clear daylight between the players except for the attacker's trailing foot, is that offside?

    A close offside is a close offside however it's defined.

Page 2 of 10 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. SPL Discussion Thread
    By Poor Student in forum World League Football
    Replies: 2259
    Last Post: 15/11/2019, 10:12 AM
  2. Betting discussion
    By tricky_colour in forum Support
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: 02/12/2017, 10:11 AM
  3. LoI/GAA discussion
    By Spudulika in forum Premier & First Divisions
    Replies: 109
    Last Post: 17/01/2012, 9:56 AM
  4. Rules Discussion
    By sligoman in forum Entertainment
    Replies: 18
    Last Post: 31/03/2009, 8:29 PM
  5. Stadium discussion
    By Cosmo in forum Drogheda United
    Replies: 25
    Last Post: 23/04/2007, 2:30 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •