Israel debate

[Eldad]

I hope nothing happens but it's Easter weekend and Israels biggest match in years.

How do they qualify as part of Europe anyway?

That's because many of Asia teams said they don't agree to play against Israel, or can't host Israel or to get there for a game...

In the 80's Israel qualified as a part of Australia and the Pacific region, but it was very difficult for Israel to fly so many hours for a one game and for small islands to get to TA...

[Éanna]

Israel qualifies as part of Europe because they receive special treatment in football, the same way as they do at the UN and seemingly everywhere else

The Arab countries, quite rightly, don't want anything to do with them, and it is only spinlessness on the part of FIFA and UEFA which allows them to compete at all. Unfortunately Israel's genocidal policy towards the rightful occupants of its land is not regarded as being serious enough to deal with. They should be given the boot the same way South Africa was during the aparetheid years

[Green Tribe]

yeah but if u say that, then the likes of zimbabwe and sudan should also get the kicking from Fifa/uefa, non?

sorry, not meaning to be political, i am not usually...

[Éanna]

yeah but if u say that, then the likes of zimbabwe and sudan should also get the kicking from Fifa/uefa, non?

sorry, not meaning to be political, i am not usually...

Yes, they should also get the boot. But Israel has been doing this for a lot longer then these two countries. Anyway, better not let it go too off topic or I'll have to ban myself

[Green Tribe]

Yes, they should also get the boot. But Israel has been doing this for a lot longer then these two countries. Anyway, better not let it go too off topic or I'll have to ban myself

ha ha ha aye!!

[Colbert Report]

I've got nothing against Israel, I just don't see how their football team can possibly be put in with Europe - the way the planet is divided up is by geography, not politics. If Asian teams refuse to play against them, then too bad. Israel is not part of Europe.

[Gibbe84]

Israel qualifies as part of Europe because they receive special treatment in football, the same way as they do at the UN and seemingly everywhere else

The Arab countries, quite rightly, don't want anything to do with them, and it is only spinlessness on the part of FIFA and UEFA which allows them to compete at all. Unfortunately Israel's genocidal policy towards the rightful occupants of its land is not regarded as being serious enough to deal with. They should be given the boot the same way South Africa was during the aparetheid years

You are talking crap. Israel has the land legally. Under international law if another nation attacks you and tries to conquor your land you are legally allowed to take any land captured from them. The Arabs invaded Israel and lost the land due to their own fault. I don't really like Israel or it's policies, but the land they took is 100% legal.

[Condex]

The Arab countries, quite rightly, don't want anything to do with them, and it is only spinlessness on the part of FIFA and UEFA which allows them to compete at all. Unfortunately Israel's genocidal policy towards the rightful occupants of its land is not regarded as being serious enough to deal with. They should be given the boot the same way South Africa was during the aparetheid years

Typical one sided support for undemocratic Arab countries which pay lip serive to human rights.

[pineapple stu]

I don't really like Israel or its policies, but the land they took is 100% legal.

Apart from UN Resolution 181 of 1947 setting out the exact borders of an independent Palestine state which the US and Israel have consistently ignored, is it?

[Éanna]

You are talking crap. Israel has the land legally. Under international law if another nation attacks you and tries to conquor your land you are legally allowed to take any land captured from them. The Arabs invaded Israel and lost the land due to their own fault. I don't really like Israel or it's policies, but the land they took is 100% legal.

Has the land legally? No it doesn't. For starters have a look at the UN resolutions. When you're finished with them ask yourself just how morally right the decision to found the state of Israel in 1948(?) and summarily expell palestinians from their homes was. Israel is an illegal, terrorist state which has done the chances of peace more damage than Saddam, the religious fanatics running Iran, the dictatorship in Syria, the brutal regime in Saudi all put together.

Typical one sided support for undemocratic Arab countries which pay lip serive to human rights.

Very hard for the Palestinians to be democratic when the Israeli'e interfere with their elections. I agree, there are undemocratic countries in the Arab world which need reform, but when they're told that Israel is an example of democracy, who'd blame them for avoiding it.

[Éanna]

I've split the thread- this one is quite interesting so far

[Soko]

**** Israel

[Eire06]

I've got nothing against Israel, I just don't see how their football team can possibly be put in with Europe - the way the planet is divided up is by geography, not politics. If Asian teams refuse to play against them, then too bad. Israel is not part of Europe.

Sorry to burst you bubble vega007 but its all politics these days...

You are talking crap. Israel has the land legally. Under international law if another nation attacks you and tries to conquor your land you are legally allowed to take any land captured from them

he he, you mental?... think a bit colser to home

[lopez]

Unfortunately Israel's genocidal policy towards the rightful occupants of its land is not regarded as being serious enough to deal with. They should be given the boot the same way South Africa was during the aparetheid years

Much as I disagree with European colonialism, you seem to have a blinkered view of the Zionist Occupied Palestine in comparison with South Africa.

1. South Africa never allowed the vote to any black citizen. Israel allows the vote to Arabs within its state.

2. South Africa had the death penalty. Israel doesn't (and if you are going to mention the assasination of Hamas members etc. then surely we should have told all British teams and Spain to f*ck off in the eighties and nineties).

3. Israel has Arabs playing football in their national side and national league. South Africa's exclusion from sport had nothing to do with its national policies, nothing to do with the (all-white) teams it picked, and everything to to do with telling their opponents who to, and who not to, pick.

BTW, we have a game against a certain other country with a poor record of human rights, discrimination, death penalty, and not forgetting agression and invasion of its neighbours, just three days after the Israel game. Where's the post for that?

...When you're finished with them ask yourself just how morally right the decision to found the state of Israel in 1948(?) and summarily expell palestinians from their homes was...

The 'moral' decision to found a Jewish state - right or wrong - was born out of the virtual annihilation of European Jews. Had this not had happened I doubt that the state would have been founded.

As for expelling Arabs, let's not forget the Jews that have been expelled from Arab lands (or not as in the case of Jews in Syria who were held as virtual prisoners for years). While a million Arabs continue to live within the 'genocidal' Israeli state (WB & Gaza excluded), only a handful of Jews remain in Arab states and Iran. Unlike these wonderful Arab states, Israel has taken in these people. Instead of allowing Palestinians to live in squalour for generations, the Arab countries might consider re-housing their 'brothers' in the homes of Jews that left their countries, or is it the case that corruption has seen much of this property (Jews were on average more wealthy) has already been 're-allocated.'

[dcfcsteve]

I'm no apologist for the state of Israel, but the simple fact of life is that that there are 5.25 million Jews living in the land that is now called Israel.

Whether their presence there is 'right' or 'wrong' - and given that Jewish people first started consciously returning to the Holy Land in large numbers over a century ago, when there was no 'country' there, I can't see any reason why their presence could be considered 'wrong' - the simple fact is that they are there. The alternative to recognising that they exist in the Middle East is to send them all packing from the region, a la 1930's Germany..

Given that reality dictates that their presence needs to be accepted, why should the hostility of their Arab neighbours (who until very recently completely and utterly refused to accept their right to be in the Middle East) prevent Israel from playing football or any other sport ? It shouldn't, but given Arab hostility to the idea, Israel have had to play in other qualifying groups for football. Given it's location, playing in the European group is the most sensible solution to this.

The state of Israel does many things wrong from a human rights point of view, and this is to be abhorred. This does not, however, bring into question whether the Israelis should be allowed a state of their own, and by extension whether they should be allowed to participate in world sports. If Israel was to be excluded on these grounds, then so should China, Indonesia, Turkey, USA, UK, and a number of Arab states themselves...

[Éanna]

Much as I disagree with European colonialism, you seem to have a blinkered view of the Zionist Occupied Palestine in comparison with South Africa.

1. South Africa never allowed the vote to any black citizen. Israel allows the vote to Arabs within its state.

2. South Africa had the death penalty. Israel doesn't (and if you are going to mention the assasination of Hamas members etc. then surely we should have told all British teams and Spain to f*ck off in the eighties and nineties).

3. Israel has Arabs playing football in their national side and national league. South Africa's exclusion from sport had nothing to do with its national policies, nothing to do with the (all-white) teams it picked, and everything to to do with telling their opponents who to, and who not to, pick.

I'm not saying they're exactly the same, but there are parallels.
1. Yes it does. But what about all the people it expelled from "it's" land, who should be entitled to a vote, but are not.
2. Assasinations if and when they chose, internment, demolition of people's homes etc. And of course shooting children for throwing stones.
3. As I said, the situations are not exactly the same, but are comparable in some respects.

The 'moral' decision to found a Jewish state - right or wrong - was born out of the virtual annihilation of European Jews. Had this not had happened I doubt that the state would have been founded.

As for expelling Arabs, let's not forget the Jews that have been expelled from Arab lands (or not as in the case of Jews in Syria who were held as virtual prisoners for years). While a million Arabs continue to live within the 'genocidal' Israeli state (WB & Gaza excluded), only a handful of Jews remain in Arab states and Iran. Unlike these wonderful Arab states, Israel has taken in these people. Instead of allowing Palestinians to live in squalour for generations, the Arab countries might consider re-housing their 'brothers' in the homes of Jews that left their countries, or is it the case that corruption has seen much of this property (Jews were on average more wealthy) has already been 're-allocated.'

In both these cases- do two wrongs make a right?

[Éanna]

Whether their presence there is 'right' or 'wrong' - and given that Jewish people first started consciously returning to the Holy Land in large numbers over a century ago, when there was no 'country' there, I can't see any reason why their presence could be considered 'wrong' - the simple fact is that they are there. The alternative to recognising that they exist in the Middle East is to send them all packing from the region, a la 1930's Germany..

No need to send them packing at all. I accept their right to live there, 100%, people can live where they like, but they should stop claiming it as "their" country and allow full, free fair elections within the entire country of palestine (incl "israel") with ALL refugees entitled to return and vote.

Given that reality dictates that their presence needs to be accepted, why should the hostility of their Arab neighbours (who until very recently completely and utterly refused to accept their right to be in the Middle East) prevent Israel from playing football or any other sport ? It shouldn't, but given Arab hostility to the idea, Israel have had to play in other qualifying groups for football. Given it's location, playing in the European group is the most sensible solution to this.

You reap what you sow. Tough shít on them.

The state of Israel does many things wrong from a human rights point of view, and this is to be abhorred. This does not, however, bring into question whether the Israelis should be allowed a state of their own, and by extension whether they should be allowed to participate in world sports. If Israel was to be excluded on these grounds, then so should China, Indonesia, Turkey, USA, UK, and a number of Arab states themselves...

Agreed. But none of those are in Ireland's group

[Partizan]

Israel like the old SA is an fascist state who carries out anti-semitic policies and whose government I abhor to the highest order. I make it my own personal business not to buy Israeli goods nor to travel or support Israel in any shape or form. I adopted the same approach on SA in the 80's.

However politics and football should not mix. I have my own personal viewpoints and if people want to boycott Israel, fine but I wouldnt hold it against anyone if they wished to travel to Israel.

I'm pro Palestinian and the political party that I'm a member of has always enjoyed strong cordial relationship with the PLO and other Palestinian groups as well as various Israeli peace groups and like minded political parties, Meretz and Communist Party of Israel. However believe in the right for the state of Israel to exist and her security be guaranteed but Sharon is making a total balls of things.

To sum it up, if Irish fans want to go, they can I have no problem but the protests can wait for another day.

[dcfcsteve]

Agreed. But none of those are in Ireland's group

And your point is.....?

We played Turkey in a play-off a few years back, but I don't recall anyone complaining about them then ? Their much more recent invasion of Cyprus (1974) - which is also condemned by UN resolutions and recognised as legitimate by no-one except Turkey- their expulsion of Creek Cypriots from their own homes in the occupied Northern section of that country, their refusal to grant any land-rights to those expelled Greeks, their treatment of the Kurds right up to the present day, their appalling human rights record (anyone see the coverage of how they 'dealt with' a peaceful woman's rights rally in Istanbul last week ? They basically battered the women and sprayed them with huge amounts of tear gas at very close range. Absolutely shocking....).

Again, I'm no apologist for Israel, and would naturally side with the Palestinians. But I also hate those who claim human rights etc are so important to them, and who then go and cherry-pick which particular sitautions they feel abhorred at. You either have an issue with the treatment of the Palestinians, the Greek Cypriots, the Kurds, the Tibetans, the Timorese, the South African blacks, the Northern Irish Catholics etc etc, or you don't. You can't pick and choose the more trendy/populist issues to be upset about and ignore the rest - particularly as in the case of Turkey where it is almost an identical situation to Israel.

Oh, and by the way - we're playing China in a friendly in a few weeks time. At home. At our invitation. I look forward to the wave of revulsion over their effective annihilation of the nation of Tibet, their ongoing suppression of democracy, their use of torture/state-sponsored murder against dissidents etc etc bursting forth onto the pages of foot.ie . But I won't be holding my breath.....

[liamon]

And your point is.....?
..... You either have an issue with the treatment of the Palestinians, the Greek Cypriots, the Kurds, the Tibetans, the Timorese, the South African blacks, the Northern Irish Catholics etc etc, or you don't. ........

To be fair to Eanna, it's hard to stand up for the entire world at once. You have to start somewhere. And the forthcoming matches do offer a chance to voice dissapproval.

I don't see anywhere in his posts any statement that says you should ignore other evils in the world at the expense of the Israeli situation.
Or should we ignore them, coz so many other countires are up to similar tricks?