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Thread: Fixtures 9th - 12th March

  1. #161
    International Prospect micls's Avatar
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    I'm agreeing with Ezeikial. It feels wrong.

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  3. #162
    International Prospect sbgawa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezeikial View Post
    It’s very welcome if you are willing to move with a discussion away from accusations of obsession, bitterness, jealousy and other barbs

    On the Stephen Bradley subject, the truth is that it is hard to ignore him as a fascinating League of Ireland personality. He is the manager of the largest League of Ireland club in Dublin, and consequently is guaranteed a captive audience from the Dublin-centric sports journos. But he just can't help himself with some of his bizarre comments - he is like a moth to a flame in terms of what he has to say and leaves himself open to ridicule. Many Rovers fans I have spoken to would prefer if he could learn to be more measured in what he says. If he is learning in this regard, it seems to be very slowly.

    My personal belief is that he is tactically naïve and is directly responsible for much of the indiscipline that has attracted so many red cards last season.

    While you mention the Academy and imply that this is critical to the future well-being of the club – the reality is that there is no guarantee of success or a return on investment here. Irrespective of that, winning an under 13 cup or under 15 league will be of little use to Bradley’s long-term job security, unless he makes it happen at senior level.

    In 2015 Rovers finished with 65 points and 12 points off the league winners – In 2016 Bradley led Rovers to 55 points and a whopping 22 points off the top. If 2017 was his first full season, Bradley failed to narrow the gap to the top and actually gathered less points than in either of the previous season.

    Any comparison with Stephen Kenny is way off the mark – he took Dundalk to 2nd place in his first season on a shoestring budget and then won the first of 3 in a row in his second season. John Caulfield is another interesting contrast – where he took Cork from nowhere to league challengers before capturing the cup and then league & cup.

    With the talent available in the squad, Rovers should be serious challengers for the title this season. In my opinion Stephen Bradley is the main reason why this challenge is unlikely to transpire
    the whole Bradley quotes thing you constantly bang on about is overdone, part of the problem of being as you say the biggest club in Dublin with journalists hanging on his every word is that they need to make headlines...he is hardly Roddy Collins or even Kenny Sheils + even your beloved Stephen Kenny is capable of massive gaffs ...please give us a penalty,,,,Karl Sheppard are two that spring to mind.

    The points per season you talk about are facts but this is his second full season Stephen Kenny may have won the league in his second season with Dundalk but that was his 17th season as a LOI manager lets compare apples with apples.

    I sincerely hope that Dundalk as a club do not believe there is no point in investing in young players as there is "no guarantee of a return on investment" as it would be a shocking indictment and not great news for young players in the North East Rovers believe in investing in young players and as a supporter I believe in this too.

    You were saying the same things about Bradley last year in his first full year as a manager , if you can't see how ridiculous that is I can't help you but lets stop pretending you are prepared to be objective unless anyone thinks his fiirst full year is enough to judge a manager on
    Last edited by sbgawa; 14/03/2018 at 11:18 PM.

  4. #163
    International Prospect Ezeikial's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbgawa View Post
    Tiresome is the lack of actual debate rather than just negative abuse, I enjoy discussion, hence my comments above about short time in the job and the work he does around the club to try to explain to non rovers fans why he gets the support he does. He's also on a budget that is less than either Cork or Dundalk..

    I'd actually love a constructive debate , above I said I thought Cork looked the stronger of last years top two, what was your opinion of Rovers on Monday compared to our last trip to Cork?
    I thought Sadlier was the best player for you guys on the pitch by a mile, what did you think of Kavanagh or Car?
    Come on sbgawa - you claim that you would like constructive debate without negative abuse and then you pepper your post with prods and whataboutery.


    Quote Originally Posted by sbgawa View Post
    the whole Bradley quotes thing you constantly bang on about is overdone, part of the problem of being as you say the biggest club in Dublin with journalists hanging on his every word is that they need to make headlines...he is hardly Roddy Collins or even Kenny Sheils + even your beloved Stephen Kenny is capable of massive gaffs ...please give us a penalty,,,,Karl Sheppard are two that spring to mind.

    The points per season you talk about are facts but this is his second full season Stephen Kenny may have won the league in his second season with Dundalk but that was his 17th season as a LOI manager lets compare apples with apples.

    I sincerely hope that Dundalk as a club do not believe there is no point in investing in young players as there is "no guarantee of a return on investment" as it would be a shocking indictment and not great news for young players in the North East Rovers believe in investing in young players and as a supporter I believe in this too.
    Whataboutery -
    #1 - Whether Stephen Kenny or Kenny Shiels speak well or poorly is hardly relevant to the question raised about Stephen Bradley
    #2 - The attitude of Dundalk FC on ROI on youth investment is somewhat moot and your "shocking indictment" statement is totally hypothetical. I presume you also realise that I do not represent the views of Dundalk FC? Nor have I even offered an opinion on this as regards the club I support!

    Quote Originally Posted by sbgawa View Post
    You were saying the same things about Bradley last year in his first full year as a manager , if you can't see how ridiculous that is I can't help you but lets stop pretending you are prepared to be objective.
    I have had doubts about Bradley's coaching and management ability from an early stage, but his comments have been consistently entertaining since he was appointed.

    I am not sure how you can suggest that me being consistent in my views is in some way ridiculous. I don't pretend to be impartial or objective, but my views on Bradley are genuine. I am a passionate fan of my local football club and being detached or non-partisan does not come easily to me. Pretty much like most LoI fans!
    Last edited by Ezeikial; 14/03/2018 at 11:25 PM.

  5. #164
    International Prospect sbgawa's Avatar
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    Ok
    We agree that kennys poor media performance is not relevant to Bradley's.
    You agree you are not objective, fair enough but instead are a "passionate " loi fan.....this doesn't prevent you having a sensible view on things by the way...

    I'm relieved you don't represent dundalk views on investment in youth as I would expect the biggest club in the north east to have an interest in the youth in the north east.
    Glad we cleared all that up I won't waste my time arguing anymore with someone who's not capable of objective reasoning
    Last edited by sbgawa; 14/03/2018 at 11:38 PM.

  6. #165
    Seasoned Pro El-Pietro's Avatar
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    Caufield took a team that finished 6th two years in a row to second in his first loi. Bradley isn't even in the same league
    If Rovers believe in young players where are they? They haven't been playing much this season. I addressed that in my last post.

  7. #166
    International Prospect sbgawa's Avatar
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    Didn't realise giving a guy a couple of years as a manager would be so controversial. Maybe I'm wrong but obviously bradser should have won the league in his first full year in charge. Sounds reasonable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by El-Pietro View Post
    Maybe this year is different, the table is still forming but as has been pointed out you are level on points with Limerick, and have taken just 1 point from your two games with the top two teams.
    It has also been pointed out that the draw was while missing 3 players considered among the best in the league, and the loss was away to the defending champions. Hardly comparable to limericks results.

    But e keep hearing about this youth project in Tallaght, its ok for Rovers to fall short while they develop players. Admirable I guess.
    It's not, its understandable to make slower progress than normally expected, not to fall short, big difference between the two.

    Both field the same amount of teenagers. Cork Citys Average Age is 25.8. Shamrock Rovers is 24.45. We have the edge in experience but take Nults out and our average falls to just 24.7.
    Lets compare apples with apples here, take out O'Brien and Rovers average drops to 23.7. Matchday teams change weekly anyway, lets compare squads:
    Rovers: 23.9
    Cork: 25.2
    Dundalk: 25.48
    So over a year in difference between Rovers and the other two.

    Who are these players ye are developing?
    Bone, Bolger, Clarke, Boyd, Dillon, Dobbs who's out on loan, plus Horgan who doesn't count for some reason have all played underage for the club. If caufield "undoubtedly" developed Maguire then the likes of Horgan, Miele and Burke definitely count too

    by the time that happens Dundlk and Cork City will have continued to replenish our squads from youth/externally.
    Can you actually name the last Dundalk player to go from being on an underage team to being a first team regular? No doubt cork have developed players but Dundalk haven't brought through a player to be a regular in years.

    Regardless I don't see this as a UCD level of development which is what the media wants us to believe. Maybe its all about Aaron Bolger? Hes played 26 minutes this season in a 6-0 win over Bray so hes not exactly holding the team back with his development.
    The youth push has only really been going the last 2/3 years, youth academys dont give an immediate return, i thought that was obvious but clearly not.

    So Bradley isn't improving Rovers in the league, or against the best teams, or even winning cups and so far we haven't really seen him take a player and improve them (Miele was massively rated a couple of years ago and now everyone has sort of forgotten about him) so what exactly is it that makes Rovers fans think hes doing a good job?
    First round last season Rovers lost to both Dundalk and Cork, second round we beat Dundalk, lost to Cork, third round we beat Dundalk and Cork, but no improvement there clearly. Rovers fans still think Mieles brilliant he's just changed his game slightly so stands out a bit less and isn't flavour of the month anymore for reporters

    I don't understand what Bradleys success are and I don't understand how Bradley isn't under pressure to deliver more given the fact that the top clubs most likely have relatively comparable resources available, perhaps with Dundalk having the edge through Europe/Investment but I hope he remains in charge for a long time.
    Bradley's success is were actually playing exciting football more often than before and the players actually give a **** now and it shows, thats what gets fans on board too, not just scraping boring 1-0's every week.

  9. #168
    International Prospect Nesta99's Avatar
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    Cant be that easy for Bradley to have similar aged coaches with the profile of Duff and McPhail at the club. They may get on well as individuals but surely some of the brass in Tallaght are already thinking of the additional profile that these coaches could offer as first team coach especially when there is no obvious development to the current team. Another few poor results....

  10. #169
    International Prospect bennocelt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezeikial View Post
    I have had doubts about Bradley's coaching and management ability from an early stage, but his comments have been consistently entertaining since he was appointed.

    I am not sure how you can suggest that me being consistent in my views is in some way ridiculous. I don't pretend to be impartial or objective, but my views on Bradley are genuine. I am a passionate fan of my local football club and being detached or non-partisan does not come easily to me. Pretty much like most LoI fans!

    Me too, the man is a clown. I do wonder that a lot of Shamrock Rovers fans have bought into this youth development thing that they cant admit they are wrong about Bradley. They will be wrong when he gets the boot at the end of the season for sure, and as a betting man Id love to wager on that!

    Think there should be a poll on this, who thinks he is really doing a great job. I would hazard a guess that its only shamrock rovers fans who think he is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nesta99 View Post
    Cant be that easy for Bradley to have similar aged coaches with the profile of Duff and McPhail at the club. They may get on well as individuals but surely some of the brass in Tallaght are already thinking of the additional profile that these coaches could offer as first team coach especially when there is no obvious development to the current team. Another few poor results....
    Mcphail is Director of Football and Duffer is U15's coach and they have those jobs instead of being manager of the first team for pretty obvious reasons.

  12. #171
    International Prospect Ezeikial's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by El-Pietro View Post
    Since 2014 these are Rovers points tallies. 62,58,62,54. The gap to the league winners in that same span is 12, 20, 15, 22. You were 15 off Dundalk last year. You aren't getting closer to the top two despite Bradleys comments that he thinks you are.
    I think the points gained by Rovers over those years are actually worse that you outlined

    2014 - 62 (12 points off the Champions)
    2015 - 65 (13 points off the Champions)
    2016 - 55 (22 points off the Champions)
    2017 - 54 (22 points off the Champions)

    The decline in results since Bradley took over is pretty clear.

  13. #172
    International Prospect Ezeikial's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbgawa View Post
    Ok
    We agree that kennys poor media performance is not relevant to Bradley's.
    You agree you are not objective, fair enough but instead are a "passionate " loi fan.....this doesn't prevent you having a sensible view on things by the way...

    I'm relieved you don't represent dundalk views on investment in youth as I would expect the biggest club in the north east to have an interest in the youth in the north east.
    Glad we cleared all that up I won't waste my time arguing anymore with someone who's not capable of objective reasoning
    It's pretty clear you are not interested in "constructive debate" as you claimed.

  14. #173
    International Prospect Ezeikial's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbgawa View Post
    Didn't realise giving a guy a couple of years as a manager would be so controversial. Maybe I'm wrong but obviously bradser should have won the league in his first full year in charge. Sounds reasonable.
    You really don't get it - it is not at all controversial; most non-Rovers supporters appear to be pleased because of his limitations as a manager/coach and his farcical interviews. A new long term contract for Bradser would actually be excellent news.
    Last edited by Ezeikial; 15/03/2018 at 12:27 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezeikial View Post
    I think the points gained by Rovers over those years are actually worse that you outlined

    2014 - 62 (12 points off the Champions)
    2015 - 65 (13 points off the Champions)
    2016 - 55 (22 points off the Champions)
    2017 - 54 (22 points off the Champions)

    The decline in results since Bradley took over is pretty clear.
    Kidding me right? What an idiotic statement. He's had one season, literally impossible for there to be a decline in points totals under him and as for actual results there has been a marked improvement under his reign, but lets not let the facts get in the way, never stopped you before why start now?

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    International Prospect Ezeikial's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RathfarnhamHoop View Post
    Kidding me right? What an idiotic statement. He's had one season, literally impossible for there to be a decline in points totals under him and as for actual results there has been a marked improvement under his reign, but lets not let the facts get in the way, never stopped you before why start now?
    He was appointed as caretaker manager in July 2016. That season Rovers finished 10 points worse off than the previous season, with Fenlons team

    He was appointed permanently in November of that year and set about building his own squad. In his first full season in charge Rovers finished 11 points worse off than 2015 or 1 point worse off than 2016. If there is something factually incorrect there, by all means point it out.

    It is too early to reach any conclusion yet this season, but the early signs are not promising

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezeikial View Post
    He was appointed as caretaker manager in July 2016. That season Rovers finished 10 points worse off than the previous season, with Fenlons team

    He was appointed permanently in November of that year and set about building his own squad. In his first full season in charge Rovers finished 11 points worse off than 2015 or 1 point worse off than 2016. If there is something factually incorrect there, by all means point it out.

    It is too early to reach any conclusion yet this season, but the early signs are not promising
    The facts are you used points from before he was in charge to show a decline under him, that is wrong. He was a caretaker with no transfer window, final position pretty much decided, hardly a season you can judge him on. Then he has had one season so far where there was a clear improvement as the season went on, It is impossible for there to be a decline in a data set of 1, end of.

    Early signs? So beating Derry 6-1, drawing with Dundalk while missing 3 key players, and only narrowly losing to the champions are not promising? Coming from the supporter of the club who drew 0-0 with Bray?

  18. #177
    International Prospect Ezeikial's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RathfarnhamHoop View Post
    The facts are you used points from before he was in charge to show a decline under him, that is wrong. He was a caretaker with no transfer window, final position pretty much decided, hardly a season you can judge him on. Then he has had one season so far where there was a clear improvement as the season went on, It is impossible for there to be a decline in a data set of 1, end of.
    Actually I responded to correct El-Pietro points totals which included 2014.

    If you take 2015 as a starting point, 2016 shows a decline in points won and 2017 shows a further decline. If you want to focus on 2017 only (not unreasonable) there was clearly no improvement in overall results - Rovers again finished 22 points off the champions and got 54 points compared with 55 points the previous season.

    Quote Originally Posted by RathfarnhamHoop View Post
    Early signs? So beating Derry 6-1, drawing with Dundalk while missing 3 key players, and only narrowly losing to the champions are not promising? Coming from the supporter of the club who drew 0-0 with Bray?
    More whataboutery - but for what it is worth, I agree that the Dundalk draws with Bray, Rovers and St Pats were poor and well below expectations.

    Are you happy with Rovers start to the season?
    Last edited by Ezeikial; 15/03/2018 at 1:33 AM.

  19. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezeikial View Post
    Actually I responded to correct El-Pietro points totals which included 2014.

    If you take 2015 as a starting point, 2016 shows a decline in points won and 2017 shows a further decline. If you want to focus on 2017 only (not unreasonable) there was clearly no improvement in overall results - Rovers again finished 22 points off the champions and got 54 points compared with 55 points the previous season.



    More whataboutery - but for what it is worth, I agree that the Dundalk draws with Bray, Rovers and St Pats were poor and well below expectations.

    Are you happy with Rovers start to the season?
    you used those results to then say "The decline in results since Bradley took over is pretty clear." which you cant do as he's only responsible for the last points total. In his only season Rovers round one was 4:1:6 round two 7:1:3 round 3 6:1:4 so once the team gelled the was a marked improvement in results under Bradley.
    Happy? no. Satisfied? yes. The loss to Bohs was disappointing but it was a derby and all bets go out the window for them, the draw to Dundalk considering who was missing was good, the Bray result was expected but the performance in getting it was good, the Derry result was brilliant, the Cork result was disappointing but they're the champions for a reason so a 1-0 loss in their back garden isn't something to get upset about.

  20. #179
    International Prospect sbgawa's Avatar
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    RH we are arguing with someone who wrote a manager off in his first season , thinks investing in youth is a questionable decision and admits he is not objective and best of all suggests a manager isn't improving a team by putting up points totals for 4 seasons of which the manager was in charge for 1 full season .....at some point you have to stop banging your head off the same wall .
    Last edited by sbgawa; 15/03/2018 at 7:01 AM.

  21. #180
    International Prospect Ezeikial's Avatar
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    Last attempt at an objective analysis of statistical facts in a 3 part Q & A -


    Q. Did Bradley improve the Rovers results during his time as Caretaker Manager from July 2016?

    A. No
    Up to Pat Fenlon getting sacked, Rovers league record for the 2016 season was Played 16, Won 9, Drew 2, Lost 5, Points 29. Bradley was in charge for 17 league games - Played 17, Won 7, Drew 5, Lost 5, Points 26. Rovers were also knocked out at home in both major cup competitions: 3-1 by St Pats in the EA Cup and 5-0 by Cork in the FAI Cup under Bradley’s guidance

    Summary of league points acheived in 2016
    Fenlon achieved 1.81 points per game
    Bradley achieved 1.53 points per game

    Q Did Bradley improve the Rovers league results compared to previous seasons, after assembling his own squad for the 2017 season?

    A No.
    Although the level of decline in results depends on what you choose to measure it against

    2015 - 33-18-11-04-65 (Played-Won-Drew-Lost-Points) – Fenlon as manager
    2016 - 33-16-07-10-55 (Played-Won-Drew-Lost-Points) – Fenlon 16 matches, Bradley 17 matches
    2017 - 33-17-03-13-54 (Played-Won-Drew-Lost-Points) – Bradley as manager

    Average points per league game
    1.97 - 2015
    1.67 - 2016
    1.64 - 2017

    Q How do the 2018 results measure up so far?

    A It is too early to make like-for-like comparisons, but after 5 league match Rovers have a 1.4 points per game average

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