Originally Posted by
pineapple stu
I think you're overanalysing here. I don't agree with your definition of thugs for starters. Yes, social issues are highly relevant, and it is a job for both government and community to address that, but you can't use that to absolve robbing a JCB and knocking down a building. And reading your posts, I can't help get the feeling you do think they deserve absolution.
...
They should be held responsible for that in an appropriate court of law. That's not to take away from the social issues; merely to put them in context. This absolutely was an act of thuggery.
What do you mean by the term "thugs" then?
Where did I attempt to absolve anyone? I tried to diagnose a problem and explain why I think this incident might have happened. I'm not necessarily right - I'm theorising - but I haven't tried to justify or condone it. It's dysfunctional behaviour that is socially destructive and therefore undesirable. If we want to make sure this sort of thing (theft, vandalism, crime or whatever) doesn't happen again or happens less in future, then we need to understand it properly so we can apply the correct and most effective remedy, that is if we as a society are bothered to fix it.
Just because I think the "zero tolerance" approach to justice is a counter-productive one, it doesn't mean I'm absolving anyone. Even if empathy for the sake of empathy was to be removed from the equation, I would still advocate the application of less "hard-line" methods that I think might be more effective and beneficial for both society and (potential) offender if we truly wish to protect society, deter crime and rehabilitate offenders so that they can be contributing, functioning members of a happy, healthy and peaceful society instead of eternally causing expense, disruption or misery for others.
No-one made them steal the JCB, knock down the shop and loot it.
That's exactly what I said when I wrote this:
It's not necessarily about absolving people of responsibility. By pointing out the causal connection between poverty, inequality or social alienation and looting or crime, one is not denying criminals agency or a portion of responsibility, nor is one claiming they are "forced" by their circumstances to react by looting or criminality, nor is one infantilising them. To recognise the causation is to do exactly the opposite. It is to point out that some human beings will decide - through the use of their rational and reasoning faculties and adult decision-making capabilities - that looting or crime is justified as a crude way of redressing the inequality and frustration they experience, as a means of attacking the unjust system that they perceive excludes them or to give them the sort of life that they see others from more privileged backgrounds living and enjoying.
They made a decision to do what they did. It was actually osarusan who disputed this and, in my view, attempted to infantilise them.
As someone else said here, this was absolutely a crime of opportunity, not desperation.
I agree it was a crime of opportunity, but pre-existing conditions (poverty and inequality) obviously also contributed. As I said above, I feel it was "a case of circumstances (socio-economic conditions) and opportunity (exceptionally bad weather conditions, meaning ample time without authorities interrupting) aligning".
What do you think it was an opportunity to do? Why do you think they took this opportunity to do that? Why do you think not one person in, say, D4 took the opportunity to do something similar in their area? There were obviously other factors underpinning the decision to take the opportunity that had presented itself.
(By the way, I'm aware I never responded to you yet in relation to our discussion from a while back on Muslims, the burqa and related matters in another thread. I've had a response half-written for a good while, but just never got round to adding the finishing touches due to other distractions and obligations arising in the meantime, so apologies for the delay on that. I will get back to it at some point as I feel you misconstrued my last post there featuring an apology.)
Bookmarks