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Thread: Referendum on the 8th amendment.

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    International Prospect osarusan's Avatar
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    Referendum on the 8th amendment.

    Based on the recommendation of the Attorney General to the government, it seems now that the choices on the ballot will be either to:


    a) leave the amendment as it is

    or

    b) repeal it and replace it with a provision explicitly giving the Oireachtas power to legislate on the issue.


    The current train of thought seems to be that the legislation would permit abortion on request until 12 weeks.

    The main sticking point seems to be the issue of abortion on request (unsurprisingly), with abortion for other reasons (fatal foetal abnormality, threat to the life or health of the woman, cases of rape or incest) not looking as contentious at all.

    The campaigning is going to be brutally ugly I'd imagine, and I wonder how it will turn out. There seems to be a sense among some pro-choice campaigners that the result of the same sex marriage campaign is an indicator of this referendum too, but I'd be wary of relying on that.

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    Club Member backstothewall's Avatar
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    I think it was always going to pass but the images of hope and happiness in the campaign for equal marriage helped them run up the score imho.

    This is very different. No matter what the circumstances There is no confetti on the way out of an abortion clinic. Those happy images are not available in this campaign.

    This will be ugly.
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    Director dahamsta's Avatar
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    I haven't involved myself in politics in a long time, but I'll be out with the spray paint and scissors for this one. The anti-abortionists (I'm a pro-abortionist thanks, I'll pass on the namby-pamby pro-choice tag) are animals with their posters. I'll hack down everything I can reach, and I'll deface everything I can't.

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    The Cheeto God Real ale Madrid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dahamsta View Post
    (I'm a pro-abortionist thanks, I'll pass on the namby-pamby pro-choice tag)
    You can pro-choice without being pro-abortion.
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    Director dahamsta's Avatar
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    I'm fighting for the woman's right to choose not to have an abortion. And I want you all to call me Loretta.

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    International Prospect bennocelt's Avatar
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    I am pro life, but with a lot of the political threads here I guess this will be another one sided echo chamber. This will be fun

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    Quote Originally Posted by bennocelt View Post
    I am pro life, but with a lot of the political threads here I guess this will be another one sided echo chamber. This will be fun
    There are one-sided politics threads on here?

    So can anyone point me to latest polls on this issue? Ta

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    Quote Originally Posted by dahamsta View Post
    I haven't involved myself in politics in a long time, but I'll be out with the spray paint and scissors for this one. The anti-abortionists (I'm a pro-abortionist thanks, I'll pass on the namby-pamby pro-choice tag) are animals with their posters. I'll hack down everything I can reach, and I'll deface everything I can't.
    I haven't seen the posters. What's offensive about them ?
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    Quote Originally Posted by bennocelt View Post
    I am pro life
    Do you oppose the permission of choice in all circumstances or would you provide for exceptions? And how would you prefer to see your position enforced?

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    Club Member backstothewall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bennocelt View Post
    I am pro life, but with a lot of the political threads here I guess this will be another one sided echo chamber. This will be fun
    I'd be broadly pro-life as well

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    Is it something about Belfast Celtic that makes people backwards?

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    Club Member backstothewall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954 View Post
    Is it something about Belfast Celtic that makes people backwards?
    It's possibly a result of too many bank holiday weekends spent in Donegal.
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    Quote Originally Posted by backstothewall View Post
    I think it was always going to pass but the images of hope and happiness in the campaign for equal marriage helped them run up the score imho.

    This is very different. No matter what the circumstances There is no confetti on the way out of an abortion clinic. Those happy images are not available in this campaign.

    This will be ugly.
    There's no confetti on a Ryanair flight back from John Lennon Airport either.

    Irish abortions happen, they just don'y happen in Ireland. For me it's a no-brainer. And that's long before I even get to the whole bodily autonomy thing.


    Quote Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954 View Post
    Is it something about Belfast Celtic that makes people backwards?
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    Last edited by BonnieShels; 09/02/2018 at 8:10 AM.
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    Club Member backstothewall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BonnieShels View Post
    There's no confetti on a Ryanair flight back from John Lennon Airport either.

    Irish abortions happen, they just don'y happen in Ireland. For me it's a no-brainer. And that's long before I even get to the whole bodily autonomy thing.
    No doubt. But neither is there any doubt that the only side of this debate who have access to anything approaching the images associated with the hopeful images of the equal marriage referendum are the anti-repeal side. That is, they can show us pictures of newborn babies. They can put happy smiley people with Down Syndrome on camera. They have an advantage in that regard.

    I'm not sure how i would vote if i had one. One one hand I am broadly pro-life as i said above, but on the other I don't think this issue has any business being addressed in the constitution of any country. It would probably depend on the question being asked on the ballot and the legislation being proposed.

    Quote Originally Posted by BonnieShels View Post
    For a long time after I joined Foot.ie I sometimes thought it was one guy replaying to his own posts. In a mypost, space cadet kinda way.
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    Quote Originally Posted by backstothewall View Post
    No doubt. But neither is there any doubt that the only side of this debate who have access to anything approaching the images associated with the hopeful images of the equal marriage referendum are the anti-repeal side. That is, they can show us pictures of newborn babies. They can put happy smiley people with Down Syndrome on camera. They have an advantage in that regard.
    I wholeheartedly disagree. Those who are convinced by pictures of smiling babies are seeking an excuse to deny rights to women. The Repeal campaign can rely on informing people of what is actually at stake and not resorting to shouting down the crazies. Lessons were learned from the Marriage Equality campaign in that regard. And by crazies I mean those that use Christian dogma to make their decisions.



    I'm not sure how i would vote if i had one. One one hand I am broadly pro-life as i said above, but on the other I don't think this issue has any business being addressed in the constitution of any country. It would probably depend on the question being asked on the ballot and the legislation being proposed.
    I'm worried that repealing the Eighth will be tied to the state of the legislation that's proposed. I feel they need to be separated though that's not realistic.

    The Constitution is absolutely not the place for this and on that basis alone it needs to go.

    Personally, everytime I think of an aspect of this issue in the singular, it's a repeal for me. So when it's all brought together there's no doubt I'd vote to repeal.




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    Quote Originally Posted by backstothewall View Post
    They can put happy smiley people with Down Syndrome on camera. They have an advantage in that regard.
    Except, they've been asked not to by Down Syndrome Ireland. There's no advantage to be had using images of people with Down Syndrome as a whipping tool, or images of any healthy baby in that regard. It's bullying tactics.

    Many of those who have an abortion are not capable of keeping a baby to term, or are not able to give them any sort of life. To rub it in by shoving pictures of healthy babies in their faces does not serve any honourable purpose.

    I made my mind up on this subject a long time ago. Five years ago, my partner, then heavily pregnant, organised a Donegal Pro Choice rally in response to a pro-life rally in Letterkenny. At the time, I wasn't too well versed on the whole thing, but I went along to support her. The utterly VILE abuse, bordering on physical abuse at times by all of those in attendance at the pro-life march as they walked past disgusted me to levels I had rarely been accustomed to in my life. People walking past calling a (very clearly) heavily pregnant woman a 'babykiller' struck me with a serious sense of irony, as they held up their pictures of aborted babies. Nuns walked past and threw holy water over her and said prayers to clear her of her wicked ways, others spat in her face, and one woman made shapes to push her into the hedge she stood in front of. There was no worry for the baby she was carrying from these people. It was totally disgusting treatment, and listening to their rally for about twenty minutes afterwards, it was led by two priests, a nun, and a doctor who said a prayer when he went onto the stage. It was all religiously motivated.

    From that day on, if I hadn't much of an idea what it was all about, I certainly knew afterwards and have been strongly pro-choice since.

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    Club Member backstothewall's Avatar
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    The pro-life extremists behave horribly. No doubt about that. Equally there are pro-choice extremists who behave horribly. I'm sorry your partner was treated in that way. How those idiots think that sort of behaviour advances their cause is beyond me.

    Down Syndrome Ireland can say what they like. They don't speak for everybody. There will be pro-life parents of Down Syndrome children out there who will give their consent and as Down Syndrome Ireland have no right to dictate to any parent what campaigns parents should allow their children to be featured in they what can they say about it?

    I think you are right to mention the crazies Bonnie. I suspect whichever side of this is most successful at reigning in their crazies will win.
    Last edited by backstothewall; 09/02/2018 at 12:48 PM.
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    International Prospect osarusan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by backstothewall View Post
    It would probably depend on the question being asked on the ballot and the legislation being proposed.
    At the moment, the options on the ballot appear to be:
    a) leave the amendment as it is

    or

    b) repeal it and replace it with a provision explicitly giving the Oireachtas power to legislate on the issue.
    and, if the recommendations of the Citizens' Assembly are implemented the accompanying legislation will have the following limits:

    • a 12-week limit for abortion on request
    • a 22-week limit for abortion for a foetal abnormality that is not likely to result in death before or soon after birth.
    • no limit for abortion for a foetal abnormality that is likely to result in death before or soon after birth.
    Last edited by osarusan; 09/02/2018 at 1:02 PM.

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    Club Member backstothewall's Avatar
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    I don't like it being in the constitution. I don't like having the 8th. I don't like the idea of replacing the 8th with another 8th which hands the issue to the Dail. It's the wrong place for this issue.

    Despite being broadly pro-life I would recognise something has to be put in place for parents with certain foetal abnormalities. The details of what should be allowed and what should not are so far removed from my expertise that I don't feel qualified to comment on what they should be. My worry is that over time this sort of provision would be used as the thin end of the wedge for late abortions in the way the 67 Act was used in GB.

    Something also needs to be put in place for rape victims. I don't like the idea of a rape clause because it inevitability means asking women to prove they have been raped. Therefore I can't avoid coming to the conclusion that some early abortion ought to be allowed. But where should the line be?

    I'm an athiest. I'm not part of the every sperm is sacred brigade. I'm not obsessed with the moment of conception. My partner and I have used the morning after pill. But it being legal to abort a healthy baby at 24 weeks, as it is in GB, is nothing short of barbaric imho. Therefore it's a debate about shades of grey.

    I used to think of the establishment of a heartbeat as a milestone I couldn't go past. I've moved that forward as when I thought about it a heartbeat isn't what makes us human. It's nothing more than a pump.

    At 10 weeks though the head has formed as something recognisably human. A little misshapen but to me there is something that looks very human about it. So that's a line I would have difficulty in going past. It's only 2 weeks but for me it makes a big difference.
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    Director dahamsta's Avatar
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    I'm putting my mod hat on here for a moment. Aside from mentions - documented mentions - of what others are saying about Downs, I don't want to see it mentioned here again. I certainly don't want to see it "debated", because it is scientifically irrelevant in this case. There will be no warnings about this, just suspensions and bans. It's a vile argument and I won't see it propagated here.

    (This is a pre-emptive warning, I realise and am pleased that no-one has gone down this route yet to any great degree.)

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