Referendum on the 8th amendment.

[Mr A]

It's revealing how you never hear of anyone making the difficult or gut-wrenching decision to have the baby.

I am aware of several such stories. I'd say most people are.

[sbgawa]

Whatever legislation is passed will continue to be changed/chipped away at in the Courts establishing new "Case Law" and widening the times and criteria.

The argument is dead at this point and there is zero chance of any protections for the unborn being voted back in by Referendum.

Trying to mount a rear guard action to delay the changes that will come in terms of times Criteria etc to whatever legislation is introduced is what the people on the No side will probably do now but I honestly think they should just give up and accept the inevitable , . the world has changed.

[Real ale Madrid]

Whatever legislation is passed will continue to be changed/chipped away at in the Courts establishing new "Case Law" and widening the times and criteria.

The argument is dead at this point and there is zero chance of any protections for the unborn being voted back in by Referendum.

Trying to mount a rear guard action to delay the changes that will come in terms of times Criteria etc to whatever legislation is introduced is what the people on the No side will probably do now but I honestly think they should just give up and accept the inevitable , . the world has changed.

No basis for that, nothing has changed anyway.

There was abortion last year and there will be this year - all we have done is face up to it.

[sbgawa]

There was abortion last year where there was a real and substantive danger to the life of the Mother etc etc.
There is now a different criteria i'e any reason up to 12 wks then etc etc, my point is this criteria will change and I don't see the point in people fighting a losing battle like in other countries , just accept it and move on.

[marinobohs]

I think the point was that abortion was available last year - in the U.K. all the proposed change does is provides the same function without the boat/plane trip.
with access to termination still a long way off in Northern Ireland, could we see Donegal 9the only county to vote no) become a centre for women travelling from the North ?

[marinobohs]

I don't think "proof" is possible here but I'd tend to agree that Ireland will follow the same trajectory as USA UK that once it is introduced in a "limited" fashion it is constantly chipped away at to increase the reasons by using every hard case from then on.
Leaving completely aside whether you are a yes or a no I think that's just accepting reality

No doubt you are right, Government will try and stick to the published heads of Bill because any deviation will see a free for all with pro lifers trying to water it down and pro choice trying to make it more liberal. best option is stick to what was advertised 9and received a huge mandate) and let both sides rekindle battle down the line (preferably on someone else's watch).pro choice will have been lifted by high 'Yes@ vote and will try and push further but down the road a bit.

[sbgawa]

I get the UK thing but that was kind of my point, its unrestricted on demand in the UK and that the way its inevitably heading here.
This subject will continue to be a thorny subject every time the needle moves going forward.
Its time to just give up and accept it , fighting every inch of the way will achieve nothing other than an on-going argument where neither side wants to listen to the other.

[marinobohs]

I get the UK thing but that was kind of my point, its unrestricted on demand in the UK and that the way its inevitably heading here.
This subject will continue to be a thorny subject every time the needle moves going forward.
Its time to just give up and accept it , fighting every inch of the way will achieve nothing other than an on-going argument where neither side wants to listen to the other.

Agree with you but unfortunately that seems to be the way we do things here. I think there is still too strong a pro life element here to simply roll over, ironic it was the insertion of article 8 that provided the impetus for the push to where e are now. sometimes silence speaks the loudest (but lessons are never learnt)

[jbyrne]

I don't see the point in people fighting a losing battle like in other countries , just accept it and move on.

ah yes, take your beating, forget about the principles you held so dearly for so long and be on your way like a good person!

[sbgawa]

I didn't explain myself very well ...I didn't mean that the NO voters should toddle off and forget their principles in a HA HA sore loser kind of way.
What I was trying to say is that the battle is over.
We have voted in Abortion on demand up to 12 weeks and effectively up to 24 weeks if the person says they are mentally not able to go through with the pregnancy (and I am not saying that there are not real genuine cases where that is actual reality).
Given that is now the state of affairs I don't think the Pro lifers achieve anything meaningful by fighting against any gradual erosions of the "theoretical" 12 week limit. All they achieve is making themselves look like hardline uncaring people and increasing the resentment and anti church sentiment of the Media and sections of Society when they will achieve nothing.
If the Church (and there are good people there) want to remain relevant they need to stop letting hardliners fight losing/pointless battles and start doing good in society and promoting positives that they are involved in.
A lot of No voters weren't hardline people and a lot of Yes voters were swayed by the hard cases but troubled by unlimited Abortion.
The trouble in the "debate" was that you tended to only here from the nutters on either side.
"every sperm is sacred" versus "Abortion up to Birth"

I'm just glad its over and didn't mean to appear to be telling people to sod off

[Real ale Madrid]

The trouble in the "debate" was that you tended to only here from the nutters on either side.
"every sperm is sacred" versus "Abortion up to Birth"

I still don't get this part.

And the constant - there are lunatics on both sides arguments - which is nonsense.

The No side had:

Giant NO signs adorning landmarks.
17,000 Crosses placed on the side of the road.
Lies on campaign posters.
Information booklets made to look like official Referendum commission information.
Graphic posters held up outside maternity hospitals.
Graphic imagery on posters erected outside schools.
The constant use of disabled children as a tool for voting NO when expressly asked not to do so.
The use of music ( Ed Sheeran & Snow Patrol ) without permission - Another populist stunt.
The utter belittling of people with genuine mental health problems.
Not to mind what went on during some of the TV debates.

Now we have :
the Catholic church telling us we are all going to hell in the aftermath.
Declan Ganley doesn't want to pay his taxes to fund abortion
The Iona institute thinks your Granny is next on "The Death Train"
John McGurk is calling everyone angry.
John Waters is writing : Ireland - An Obituary.

on the Yes ledger:
Well apart from a few zealots out canvassing I'm not altogether sure. No lies, no graphic imagery, no posturing - just let the facts speak for themselves.
I think on some of the TV debates - a lot of YES people held thier counsel in face of some pretty objectionable behavior - to the detriment of the YES campaign at the time I thought.
Brid Smyth maybe is a bit of a nutter and some of the celebratory tweets were in poor taste - but most of the objectionable stuff was on the NO side for me.

The result I thought was a spectacular rejection of the Ireland of Old.

[jbyrne]

All they achieve is making themselves look like hardline uncaring people

uncaring people? the No side would argue otherwise. quite the opposite actually

[dahamsta]

uncaring people? the No side would argue otherwise. quite the opposite actually

They would, absolutely oblivious to the narrowness of their "caring".

[marinobohs]

Anyhoo, the referendum is OVER the people have spoken and whether we like it or not the decision is made. I expect the Government to quickly move to formalize the 'heads of Bill' published prior to the referendum into real legislation. while I think the provision of services by 1st January 2019 is probably hopelessly optimistic, I expect the HSE to move quickly (well, quicker than they usually do) to roll out the service.


hopefully the failure of some of the scaremongering tactics deployed by the 'No' side (as they failed in the SSM referendum) will lead to more proper rational debate on these issues in the future. some of the post referendum antics of the catholic church (banning V de P etc.) simply marginalize them further from the mainstream of Irish people (thankfully)

[OwlsFan]

They would, absolutely oblivious to the narrowness of their "caring".

So why was their slogan "love both" while the yes campaign was about the one person? One looks a bit narrower to me.

[backstothewall]

with access to termination still a long way off in Northern Ireland, could we see Donegal 9the only county to vote no) become a centre for women travelling from the North ?

I'd expect the busiest clinics outside Dublin to be in Dundalk and Letterkenny. And I'd expect there to be a lot of yellow number plates in the car park.

It will be interesting to see what the legislation ends up looking like. Despite my own reservations the heads of the bill produced by Simon Harris were clearly put to the people before the referendum, and obviously received very strong backing. Anything other than very modest shifts away from those proposals will be controversial, but who knows what could happen if there is an election between then and now.

[The Fly]

I don't really understand your point - the No campaign had plenty of stories from women who thought about seeking an abortion, but after a lot of thought or soul-searching, in the end decided to have their child instead.

My point is simply that you only ever hear of people speaking in terms of the 'gut-wrenching', or the 'difficult', or the 'harrowing' decision when it comes to their eventual decision to have an abortion. Which tells me that deep down those people know that said decision carries a great deal of moral weight. Your use of the phrase 'soul-searching' just reinforces it.

[The Fly]

I wouldn't be surprised if there's actually a reduction in the number of abortions procured by Irish women when the legislation takes effect.

It's possible, but highly improbable. The liberalisation of abortion law has led to more abortion in every country (or at least every country I'm aware of) where such liberalisation has taken place. It's statistically demonstrable.

The stress of knowing the option wasn't available locally must have been a huge additional burden, and once flights were booked etc. changing of mind would have been unlikely. At least now there's going to be consultation locally, advice, support etc. and with the proposals to increase access to birth control and improve sex education in schools it should be a much healthier environment for women in general.

Contraception is widely and virtually freely available already, and if...(from Wiki) "the purpose of sexuality education curriculum in Europe is to facilitate adolescents to gain knowledge, attitudes, skills and values to make appropriate and healthy choices in their sexual behaviour, thus preventing them from sexually transmitted infections, including HIV and HPV, teenage or unwanted pregnancies, and from domestic and sexual violence, contributing to a greater society", then it has failed in its purpose.

[The Fly]

No basis for that, nothing has changed anyway.

There was abortion last year and there will be this year - all we have done is face up to it.

I always thought that was one of, if not thee strongest argument that those advocating for repeal had; namely that abortion is a reality whether it be through export to Britain or importation online. It's important to remember though that in facing up to it, we have also 'okayed' it, and that will bring consequences.

One takeaway I got from the whole debate is that there's a significant number of people who think that the referendum (heralding Ireland's belated membership of true Western 'modernity') represents some kind of "End of History" moment...a la Francis Fukuyama. They're as wrong as he was.

[mark12345]

I always thought that was one of, if not thee strongest argument that those advocating for repeal had; namely that abortion is a reality whether it be through export to Britain or importation online. It's important to remember though that in facing up to it, we have also 'okayed' it, and that will bring consequences.

One takeaway I got from the whole debate is that there's a significant number of people who think that the referendum (heralding Ireland's belated membership of true Western 'modernity') represents some kind of "End of History" moment...a la Francis Fukuyama. They're as wrong as he was.

The 8th Amendment. Remember that. If you don't, who could blame you?
It was designed for you not to be appalled by its language (just like "The Right To Choose" or "Pro Choice" in America).
Why is this relevant now?
Well in case it went unnoticed in Ireland this week, the New York State Legislature just passed a bill which allows a baby to be aborted at any time during the pregnancy and even after it has been born (killed in other words).
Some are calling it the "Fourth Trimester". Others are calling it "Infantacide"

And those who perform these abortions/killings cannot be prosecuted (and from what I understand they don't even have to be medical professionals - lay people who do it also).
And the wonderful folks in the New York State Legislature rose in unison to cheer and applaud the passing of the bill.

Meanwhile down in Virginia, a bill was introduced which the Governor of that state backed. In his description of what would happen in such situations, Governor Northam said that a baby could potentially be born and "made comfortable" while the mother and physician were allowed to have a discussion as to its (the baby's) fate. Meaning that any time after the birth of the baby, the mother could decide whether she wanted the child or not. There was no word as to how long the mother could take to decide (a half hour, an hour, a week a month?) Who knows? One wonders, what would happen if the mother decided after a few months that she really didn't want her newborn? Fortunately that bill was defeated in the Viriniga State Legislature. But it looks like we have reached new lows in our 'handling' of the unborn.

Why is this important to Ireland? Well you can be guaranteed it is coming to a hospital near you soon.