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Thread: Referendum on the 8th amendment.

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by NeverFeltBetter View Post
    Positive polling today, and I'm feeling a lot better about the vote than I was this time last week. I would cautiously expect a 52/53% yes.

    A couple of thoughts on the issue:

    I have no right as an individual to tell any woman (or man for that matter) what they should or should not do with their own body.
    For any individual to have that right, or power shall we say, would be draconian.
    We live in a free society where that sort of personal power is not granted to individuals or groups of individuals, like say the government.
    However there is another body involed here, is there not? That's the essence of the debate.

    From an economic point of view: Should the Irish government announce tomorrow morning that it will be revoking all convictions that were ever issued by the courts against drunk drivers, reimbursing the guilty for any lost monies they might have incurred, and reinstating them to jobs and marriages they may have lost because of those convictions? That would be sort of crazy, wouldn't you say? How much of an uproar would that cause among the populace. People should own up to the consequences of their decisions and must be held accountable for their actions. Fair to say? Well that does not apply apparently in the case of unwanted pregnancies. One can make a mistake, and another, and another, and the tax payers will continue to pay for those mistakes. Is there a difference between that and drunk drivers? Just saying.

    From a religious point of view: The government is asking it's citizens (those citizens who claim abortion is against their religion) to pay their taxes to help a process which goes against their religion.
    Does the Irish government demand the same type of financial levy from all religious groups in the country, if they claim something goes against their religion?
    I'd be very interested to know the truth on that one.

  2. #62
    Banned. Children Banned. Grandchildren Banned. 3 Months. Charlie Darwin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by osarusan View Post
    I have very very little time for the "I was going to vote to repeal, but after seeing the behaviour of the campaign, now I'm going to vote the other way" argument. I strongly suspect that the person saying it was never going to vote that way in the first place.

    We saw it endlessly in the SSM campaign, people who were apparently so put off by the Yes campaign that they changed their vote, but yet the behaviour of the No campaign somehow had no effect on them.

    Either way, you are voting on an issue, and people should vote on that issue, not the campaign.
    It's tone policing and it's bizarre. If I was a cynical man (and I am) I'd say it's certain people's way of stifling debate and creating doubt to encourage people not to turn out.

  3. #63
    Banned. Children Banned. Grandchildren Banned. 3 Months. Charlie Darwin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mark12345 View Post
    Does the Irish government demand the same type of financial levy from all religious groups in the country, if they claim something goes against their religion?
    I'd be very interested to know the truth on that one.
    Well, fairly obviously, yes. Jews, Muslims, Hindus, atheists, etc all fund the Catholic supremacy of our schools and hospitals.

  4. #64
    International Prospect osarusan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin View Post
    It's tone policing and it's bizarre. If I was a cynical man (and I am) I'd say it's certain people's way of stifling debate and creating doubt to encourage people not to turn out.
    I don't think it's bizarre, I think it's a fairly crude (and desperate) attempt to instill doubt in campaigners by implying that their behaviour is costing their own side votes from the soft or undecided voters.

    Like I said, we saw it repeatedly during the SSM campaign - a whole load of voters who were apparently so shocked by the behaviour of some in the Yes campaign that they changed their votes to No, but somehow remained unaffected by the ridiculous behaviour of some elements of the No campaign.
    Last edited by osarusan; 22/05/2018 at 8:01 AM.

  5. #65
    Like the Fonz. Only a dog. Mr A's Avatar
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    Are there any concrete examples of poor behaviour from the Yes side? I know there are angry voices there, but since the 8th amendment endangers and in some cases outright kills women that strikes me as entirely appropriate.

    Meanwhile the No side have been removing posters, protesting outside maternity hospitals, and lying like there's no tomorrow (I guess when you have God on your side you can do what you want).

    Oh, and saving terminations in cases of a fatal foetal condition are murder. https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a...d-a1499f0c9519

    But yeah, the yes side has a tone problem.

  6. #66
    Director dahamsta's Avatar
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    I've tossed several posts from this thread int he bin. If you don't have anything of value to add, don't add it.

  7. #67
    Director dahamsta's Avatar
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    To be fair people from the Yes side have removed posters too, and that giant NO from the hill that was put up over the weekend.

    I've been tempted to take down / black out a few of the more objectionable No posters myself, but I haven't thus far.T

    The behaviour of the No side has been exactly as I'd expect. Pathetic behaviour.

  8. #68
    Seasoned Pro NeverFeltBetter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dahamsta View Post
    To be fair people from the Yes side have removed posters too, and that giant NO from the hill that was put up over the weekend.

    I've been tempted to take down / black out a few of the more objectionable No posters myself, but I haven't thus far.T

    The behaviour of the No side has been exactly as I'd expect. Pathetic behaviour.
    It's not at all clear what happened there though, it could easily have just come apart and blown away.

    Connected, it's been amusing seeing the few Love Both reps asked about the Ben Bulben/Crosses thing trip over themselves to disassociate their movement from the actions of this one guy. They know their losing votes with every stunt.
    Author of Never Felt Better (History, Film Reviews).

  9. #69
    Seasoned Pro jbyrne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dahamsta View Post
    The behaviour of the No side has been exactly as I'd expect. Pathetic behaviour.
    you cant tar all the No side with the same brush. one may / may not agree with what they have said but many No speakers have talked a fair bit of sense in an intelligent and controlled manner.
    just as much "pathetic" behaviour on the Yes side. last Mondays Claire Byrne "debate" is case in point.... both sides let themselves down badly

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  11. #70
    Seasoned Pro NeverFeltBetter's Avatar
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    Claire Byrne was undoubtedly disgraceful TV, but I'm genuinely baffled that people think it was a 50/50 situation in terms of blame. The guilt there lies with No, and with Byrne herself.
    Author of Never Felt Better (History, Film Reviews).

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    Director dahamsta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbyrne View Post
    you cant tar all the No side with the same brush.
    I can't tar everyone that wants to vote No with the same brush, but I can tar most organisations leading the No charge with that brush -- their posters are almost universally untrue or misleading (or simply gross; or confusing for children, whose schools they are often placed outside; or hurtful for pregnant people, whose hospitals they are often placed outside), and their comments to the media (and in the pulpit) are the same.

    I'm sure some No voters are simply misguided by them. Not all, but a fair number. Take the lies out of the equation and I'd lay good odds the poll numbers would change significantly.

  13. #72
    Seasoned Pro jbyrne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dahamsta View Post
    I'm sure some No voters are simply misguided by them. Not all, but a fair number. Take the lies out of the equation and I'd lay good odds the poll numbers would change significantly.
    again, same could be said for both sides

  14. #73
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    Was the Finn Harps twitter account hacked this morning or did they really just tweet a Together for yes tweet ?

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    Capped Player nigel-harps1954's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbyrne View Post
    again, same could be said for both sides
    Can I ask what lies you'd like to see the Yes side remove?

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  17. #75
    Club Member backstothewall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954 View Post
    Can I ask what lies you'd like to see the Yes side remove?
    Only one example but that the 8th amendment was the reason for the tragic death of Savita Halappanavar.

    A coroner has ruled that she died because of medical negligence. The courts awarded huge damages against the HSE because of that negligence. Even with the 8th ammendment and some of the most restrictive laws in the western world the courts have ruled that Savita Halappanavar could and should have been offered an abortion.

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    Seasoned Pro jbyrne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954 View Post
    Can I ask what lies you'd like to see the Yes side remove?
    that aborting a perfectly viable unborn child up to 12 weeks isn't wrong.
    ever seen a live 12 week scan?

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    Club Member backstothewall's Avatar
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    There are plenty of liers on the No side tbf. We've just had Bernie Smith on Radio Ulster spouting blatant lies about a link between abortion and breast cancer.

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    Capped Player nigel-harps1954's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbyrne View Post
    that aborting a perfectly viable unborn child up to 12 weeks isn't wrong.
    ever seen a live 12 week scan?
    Is that it? I've two kids and we've also had one miscarriage. I've seen my fair share of scans to know what's there, what size it is, and what features it does and doesn't have.

    For what it's worth, I'm a strong yes campaigner, but I've trouble with the 12 week part of the proposed legislation. That's not what I'm voting for. I'm voting for the removal of the eighth amendment.

    Where's the lies though you speak of?

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  22. #79
    Capped Player nigel-harps1954's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by backstothewall View Post
    Only one example but that the 8th amendment was the reason for the tragic death of Savita Halappanavar.

    A coroner has ruled that she died because of medical negligence. The courts awarded huge damages against the HSE because of that negligence. Even with the 8th ammendment and some of the most restrictive laws in the western world the courts have ruled that Savita Halappanavar could and should have been offered an abortion.
    I disagree with this. It might not have saved her, but an abortion would have allowed earlier intervention and given her a chance.

    Every side has their opinion on this one, but I prefer to listen to many, many experts, as well as the official inquest into her death which ruled the eighth amendment had a large part to play in her death.

  23. #80
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    The 8th amendment has not saved one life as all it has done is force women and couples to travel to the UK to access an termination.
    Whatever their justification for this is for it is another shame on this nation in that the state is not providing help and support to those who need it.
    This is also a class issue as people who can afford to travel can travel to the UK for a couple of hundred euros with the help of a credit card or a short term loan.
    People who cant afford it try to access the abortion pills and take them unsupervised or even worse not really know what is in them.

    Coming from some folk on the no side you would swear that women are ticking killing machines in that if this goes through every single menstrual women alive will get pregnant and have an abortion because that is what they do and they cant be trusted. And this mantra is being spouted by female contributors on the No side.

    I believe that we should allow each individual woman power and authority over their own body
    Long Live King Kenny

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