Third goal in three games today and sixth of the season - worth another look next year? https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/59099838
O'Dowda replaces injured Collins in Ireland squad (rte.ie)
Scott Hogan is no where near Kenny's plans
It might be a mistake too, if we need a goal v lux to possibly save his job, I know who I would prefer to bring on between him and O Dowda
After a bit of a drought over the last few months, scores his seventh of the season: https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/59918634
A bit of a patchy season for Hogan, but still looks like he'll get his best return since his Brentford breakout - scored his eighth in twenty-five appearances today - https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/60005545 - so... a 12-15 goal Championship striker still in his prime - worthy of inclusion in the squad next season?
I wouldn't be appalled if he was selected, especially ahead of Will Keane or Collins, but I can't forget how out of his depth he looked for us at home to Gibraltar. Contributed absolutely nothing, didn't look like he had anything about him in terms of touch, mobility, power, and pace; and never looked like scoring for us then, or in any of his other seven appearances. He just looked like an absolute nothing player. Granted, Mick's setup wasn't designed to get the best out of attacking players, but David McGoldrick still looked several classes above Hogan.
The consensus from Villa fans was that he needed to play in a system that's totally built around him, where chances are served to him on a plate. And it's telling that Dean Smith - who got the best out of Hogan at Brentford - wanted nothing to do with him when he took over at Villa.
In fairness, most of our players were dreadful in that game against Gibraltar, and most of our forwards have been dreadful under Kenny. I don't think a game three years ago is really a reason to leave him out of the squad entirely now, especially when Parrott - struggling to even make an impact a division lower - is being included.
Don't forget his other seven caps.
If a forward is 26 or older, and not making an instant impression at this level, like Daryl Murphy, Walters, or McGoldrick did when they got their chances, then they just don't have it.
The best course of action for us is to pick young players with a ceiling for improvement, rather than continue putting faith in proven mediocrity. I'd agree with leaving Parrott out until he finds his way; I'd rather see someone like Oko-Flex or Ferguson in the squad in his place as a development player. Wales have been fast-tracking young lads like that for years - Wilson, James, Ampadu, Woodburn, Brooks, Williams, etc.
Yeah, but Idah/Parrott/Connolly have done nothing in 30+ caps between them, and only that another half-decent 26-year-old Championship forward who'd made no impact in 20 caps beforehand (Robinson) suddenly came good, Kenny would probably be gone by now.
Beggars really can't be choosers, and we can't just kick our heels until Idah/Parrott/Connolly come good.
It's one thing fast-tracking young players - it's another thing depending on them entirely. Which Wales aren't doing.
Anyone could see that Robinson had pace, technique, a willingness to get on the ball, and the ability to sniff out chances, even if his finishing was poor until this year.
Idah was excellent for us in Portugal, and in other games. There's a player in there, as Norwich are now finding out. Finishing has let him down.
Connolly made an instant impact in Georgia under Mick, and has shown glimpses of talent. Attitude is the problem, not talent.
Parrott scored twice in Andorra, similar level to Gibraltar. Has some talent.
Hogan has not demonstrated any talent in a green jersey, despite being the finished article. We might as well be building the team around James Collins, who incidentally, has a better scoring record in the Championship than Hogan. Or Sean Maguire or Aidan O'Brien, who at least scored for us, once.
We're playing a modern style of football now. We need modern footballers.
Ah that's all very selective.
Robinson scored once in his first 20 games - he didn't score against Gibraltar either - but you're writing off Hogan for scoring no goals in 8? He hasn't even played under Kenny yet, and Kenny's playing a very different style of play so I wouldn't be judging him exclusively on his performances for Ireland.
Idah was good in Portugal but he's been poor most of the time, and when he was hauled off in our last game in Luxembourg (half-time analysis having flagged him as a weak link) it changed the game. Connolly has glimpses of talent - so what? The jury is increasingly out on Parrott. Collins does have a better scoring record in the second tier than Hogan and while I've not been convinced by him, I wouldn't rule him out either. Hogan has had a run of injuries which hasn't helped, but now that he's injury-free, he's outscoring Collins.
I don't see why Hogan isn't a modern footballer - you've just thrown that in with no real back-up at all.
We need options up front because we're almost entirely reliant on Robinson at present.
Last edited by pineapple stu; 23/01/2022 at 10:36 AM.
He strikes me as an old-school forward who would work well in a 1990s 4-4-2. A David Kelly/David Connolly type. Finishes when it's put on a plate for him, or out of a goalmouth scramble, but won't create his own chances, beat a man, hold the ball up, or drop deep to link with the midfield. No real physicality, skill or pace. I just don't see it with him at all.
But if he goes on a genuinely impressive goalscoring run and does come into the squad, it should be at the expense of Keane or Collins, not one of the young lads.
But how long do we keep up with Idah/Connolly/Parrott when they're not delivering the goods? They get plenty of exposure at club level so having them in the national team doesn't really improve them. Hypothetically, what would it take for you to drop "one of the young lads" from the squad?
Given our poor form under Kenny and the shakiness of our recovery (in that it's almost entirely dependent on Robinson finding a bit of form), we need the best players available to us. I don't see the value in prioritising players who may come good in a couple of years over others who are scoring now.
Connolly has been dropped, and Parrott hasn't started for us since the Azerbaijan game, when both were poor. The beneficiaries have been McGrath, Knight and Ogbene, who have added a lot to our attack. Idah is worth persevering with. If Connolly starts scoring for Boro, I'd call him back up. Parrott can go back to the 21s for a while.
In debates like these, I just think of Trap's selections ten years ago. Persisting with limited journeymen like Kelly/McShane, O'Dea, Green, Cox, Keogh and Folan ahead of promising young lads like Coleman, Clark, McCarthy, Brady, McClean and Long. Hoolahan wasn't young, but he was similarly ignored. Picking on the young players' errors and shortcomings, yet persisting with and lauding ineffective players who were never going to improve. Going back further, think of Kerr bringing in a 33-year-old Graham Kavanagh to plod away in midfield, and leaving Steven Reid on the bench. Or Mick, not figuring out how to use Duff, and leaving him on the bench for Kevin Kilbane for three years.
Conservatism with young lads; not trusting them, writing them off too early, and persisting with 'never-will-be' players instead - it's what infuriates me about Irish football (and rugby), and what I find refreshing about Kenny's policy.
Maybe Hogan is the new Wes Hoolahan.
Nobody's writing anyone off. If we want to talk about "things that infuriate me", it's the idea that criticism of players promoted to the senior squad ahead of their time and performing accordingly constitutes "writing them off"
The fact is we've just had our longest-ever barren run of goalscoring form. Amazingly enough, it coincided with some of our worst-ever results. Then along came a 26+ bog-standard Championship striker who'd never made an impression in 20 caps before, and he bangs in six goals and Kenny's job is saved. If Robinson is out, what then? We need to use the March friendlies to look at more options. And someone who has recovered from a very nasty injury (cruciate knee - out for almost two years) and who has recovered since then to be a decent goalscorer at a poor side can't just be dismissed because of how he played under a different manager in a different setup.
Idah/Connolly/Parrott aren't remotely at the stage Coleman, etc were btw. Coleman made his debut during his first full Premier League season and has been a regular more or less since. Ditto McClean. Brady was actually capped before he had played a senior game, but became a regular when he started getting regular first-team ball with Hull. Shane Long was capped during his second full season. James McCarthy was capped during his first Premier League season at 19, and would have been a regular earlier on had he not gone AWOL a few times. Coleman, McClean and McCarthy had a couple of seasons of full-time football under their belts at that stage in other leagues (LoI, SPL)
By comparison, Idah/Connolly/Parrott are taking much longer to establish themselves at senior level, yet are getting far more international time. Again, I'll nod back to our awful goalscoring record for the first 15 or so matches under Kenny...
Last edited by pineapple stu; 23/01/2022 at 1:27 PM.
We're going to go around in circles with this.
Robinson is different from Hogan - he has played Premier League football and scored against big teams. He is quick, skilful, and makes good runs. There was always a good player in there - he just needed a run in the team, within a settled formation, with players around him feeding him and passing forwards with confidence, rather than playing nervous, safe square balls, in an unsettled team, as we'd been doing under Kenny before the Portugal away game.
We have to resort to picking Championship, League One players, and fringe EPL players. I don't like it, but it's a fact of life now. The Championship is a mixed bag - old-school hoofball teams, and modern, technical sides. Same is true of the players who do well there - you have Collins, who is a half-decent Championship striker because of brute strength and awkwardness, but has none of the necessary qualities of an international forward - technique, athleticism, pace. Then you have Ogbene in League One, who is a weapon at international level, and made an immediate impact against Hungary when he came on - because his qualities seem to suit the pace and style of international football. Ronan Curtis is coveted by several Championship sides because he's a big, fit lad who scores the odd goal - but he's useless at international level because his first touch is appalling. McGrath is a much more effective international player than the likes of O'Dowda, despite playing in a weaker league.
When you're short of top-level talent, you have to make judgement calls on players' technical and physical qualities, and suitability for international football, rather than the level they're playing at. Like Curtis, O'Dowda, Horgan, Aidan O'Brien, Maguire, etc, I just don't think Hogan's ever going to have the qualities to do well or make a difference at this level. He's another Alan Lee/Leon Best.
I still think you're being very retrospective with regards Robinson - there's a good player there because he scored a few goals recently. Hogan hasn't been given the chance. Heck, even Collins (whom I don't really rate) has at least got a couple of games and scored.
If we were selecting solid Championship or PL players ahead of Hogan, that'd be fine. But there's simply nothing there to show that Connolly/Idah/Parrott aren't another Alan Lee/Leon Best either. When you're as stuck for options as we are, you can't dismiss players because they've never played in the Premier League, and hope that some young players come good at some stage. I don't really want third tier players in the squad either, but I'd be interested to see what Keane has to offer because we are desperate for something new up front.
Will Keane is interesting, I agree - he seems technically sound, and a bit of a physical unit too. Could be a bit of David McGoldrick about him.
I see it as a choice between Hogan and Collins, rather Hogan and one of Idah/ Connolly/ Parrott, simply because Hogan and Collins are similar type of players. I don't see our style of play/ formation/ player selection as fixed - we are far more adaptable and flexible than previously. Hence why the choice is Hogan or Collins as the pick of similar players lessens the ability to be adaptable and flexible.
Btw there isn't a reliance on Robinson - Robinson has benefitted from more fluidity in our recent play.
Last edited by Snapshot; 24/01/2022 at 8:54 AM.
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