Is anybody actually saying that players don't owe each other a duty of care?
100% on the whole post. He didn't hesitate to send him off.Originally Posted by jbyrne
DID YOU NOTICE A SIGN OUTSIDE MY HOUSE...?
Is anybody actually saying that players don't owe each other a duty of care?
No. But there is a some sort of prevailing notion that the intent or the past of Taylor is what we should be looking at here. In fact there's an underlying commentary (not just on here) that it was the referee that made Taylor be reckless because of that he let go. So those of us who disagree will keep making that same point.
DID YOU NOTICE A SIGN OUTSIDE MY HOUSE...?
He got a red card for not showing his opponent due care. Of course the level of intent has to be taken into consideration when determining any extra punishment. Drawing a line completely through the level of 'intent' is just not very practical I don't think.
All players do owe each other a duty of care. One of the things that most concerns me about refereeing is how those tackles are let go in park football where the players have real jobs they can lose if they end up breaking their leg on a Saturday afternoon or Sunday morning.
Last edited by backstothewall; 27/03/2017 at 7:09 PM.
Bring Back Belfast Celtic F.C.
More attack minded than what?
If their defence is that brutal then of course we can beat them. I think overall we're pretty okay at utilising our strengths. What do you consider those strengths to be? It was mainly set pieces in the last campaign that served us so well, and indeed against them a couple of months back.
It's too early to make predictions. Only 3 weeks ago this forum was awash with posts about how all our key players are fit and playing regularly and when match day came around we had a pretty threadbare squad. If we have a full XI I'd think it's there to be won. Without our creative players I think we could lose by a couple. I'm not convinced we really have it in us under MON to play without fear and caution though, unless it's a Lille type win or bust.
Yeah Austria is all that matters for now. At the half way point I think we can be pretty chuffed though, especially considering ourselves and Wales had the most difficult starts on paper (i.e. 2/3 games against the 'Big Four' were away).
Did we play without fear and caution against Sweden at the Euros, at least for the first hour or so? I'm not too concerned about that in any case. Pragmatic football is fine by me but obviously we will need to be a bit more threatening in our two big home games to come.
To have the luxury of being able to lose game 6 yet still being guaranteed of at being least second going into the next game is pretty rare alright.
Taylor seemed to indicate or gesture some form of apology to Roy Keane on his way past the Irish bench and Roy patted him on the back or shoulder, if I recall correctly, as if to acknowledge Taylor's remorse and accept that he didn't mean to injure Coleman.
What do you think Taylor spitting indicated? I don't think a huge deal can be read into spitting on the ground.
Arguably, James McClean's tackle against Milik when he came on against Poland in Dublin during the last Euros qualifying campaign could be placed in the dangerous/excessive red-card category, yet McClean was roundly applauded for his aggression, and this was in spite of the fact Milik was kept out of action for a few weeks after the game as a result.
As far as Taylor's tackle was concerned, I'm pretty sure the ref was going straight for the red card in his pocket and waved it at Taylor before he even looked at Coleman to gauge the seriousness of the damage done.
Yup, the rule-book is pretty clear: http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/foot...al.pdf#page=86
There is no intent required for a tackle to be deemed serious foul play, so, even if Taylor didn't mean it, he can have very little complaint about being sent off. Intent can come into violent conduct, however.
Last edited by DannyInvincible; 27/03/2017 at 4:26 PM.
All pretty subjective though. What's excessive force to me might not be excessive force to you. McClean is a good example actually, certainly as a case could be made for excessive force there and I remember getting shot down for debating a Ciaran Clark tackle for Villa along the same lines on here.
It might not be in the rules or whatever but 'intent' surely has a big part to play? Why would Deli Alli get an extra ban on top of the straight red otherwise? In terms of endangering his opponent the only thing that separated it from the likes of Taylor's one was the level of intent I think. But, yeah, agreed - Taylor's is a red card regardless of intent. I think everybody agrees with that.
For what it's worth, we're still very slight favourites with the bookies to win the group: http://world-cup.betting-directory.c...qualifying.php
It would have been lovely had Georgia scored that sitter to put them 2-0 ahead against Serbia before giving away a daft penalty and/or had McClean's late volley nestled into the corner of Hennessy's net instead of taking a deflection for a corner, but as Paul says, to be in such a comfortable position at this juncture would be so utterly atypical so as to be distinctly un-Irish!
Agreed, and indeed this is why you'll have inconsistency across the board in terms of what refs deem excessive and acceptable.
You make a fair point. Would Deli Alli's have crossed into the (presumably a bit more serious) violent conduct category?It might not be in the rules or whatever but 'intent' surely has a big part to play? Why would Deli Alli get an extra ban on top of the straight red otherwise? In terms of endangering his opponent the only thing that separated it from the likes of Taylor's one was the level of intent I think.
Usual blog on the game for those that follow it. Few thoughts on what I made of the Bale and Taylor challenges as well.
Cymru Plaid Their Cards Wrong
Last edited by Drumcondra 69er; 27/03/2017 at 5:23 PM.
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would it be fair to say that Bale's tackle on O'Shea was as bad as Taylor's was on Coleman? They were both ridiculously late, over the top and reckless - the only difference being that Taylor snapped a standing leg whereas Bale chopped the kicking leg.
I think that these tackles (not to mention the boots to the head (Whelan) and chest (McClean)) show that Wales came out in the 2nd half under very specific orders to test the line of what the ref would accept. I agree with Pauls assertion (similar to my own) that the ref was good in that he let a lot go but that also he was bad in that he let too much go and Wales pushed that grace to the limits.
In the cold light of day, I think Wales should be ashamed with how they came out to play in that 2nd half from a physicality perspective. There's enough evidence to show they came out with a different mindset. I think its scummy.
I like high energy football. A little bit rock and roll. Many finishes instead of waiting for the perfect one.
I don't know Stu, I doubt the players are being sent out to break legs. Perhaps they were told to play aggressively but I think that's different than what we saw.
I was shouting for Bale to be sent off for that late slide on O'Shea -- I thought that was atrocious. I'm sure the ref had a think too but perhaps the name on the back of the player's jersey saved him.
Suspect this was less a tactical move to come out physically and more a reaction to Wales feeling a bit desperate to get a win.
Just to be clear, I wasn't saying that they came out to break legs or cause serious injury but they came out to play far more physically and test a lenient ref on where his line was. In the process they went way beyond acceptability to the extent that they committed a potentially career ending offense to find out where that line was. Taylor sees Bale gets yellow therefore he is encouraged to commit a similarly reckless tackle based on the ref's line. I will take back the word "scummy" and replace it with "reckless".
I like high energy football. A little bit rock and roll. Many finishes instead of waiting for the perfect one.
I wouldn't overthink about the tackles too much, but at the same time I wouldn't put it past Coleman to have hyped up the physicalities at half time.
The state of affairs now is that we have to beat Georgia away, a few days before we meet Serbia and if anyone thinks that there's no home and away effect when it comes to Georgia, is living in cuckoo land. I don't think we missed an opportunity to beat Wales, a draw was a reasonable outcome on the day that was in it and that hurt Wales more than it hurt us, nevertheless, Wales with some glimmer of hope are well capable to give Serbia a game.
Play that is deemed to be reckless warrants a yellow card, according the rules. When play is deemed to be dangerous (in terms of its potential to threaten a player's safety or cause injury) or excessively forceful, it crosses into red-card territory.
To be fair, I wasn't referencing the rule book.
I like high energy football. A little bit rock and roll. Many finishes instead of waiting for the perfect one.
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