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Thread: Declan Rice

  1. #761
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    Lads we cant trick or cod people into playing for Ireland. Captain hindsight is great, but its not the way forward. I would like to ask all of you to check your posts before rhe build up to the Moldova and Wales double header and if you called for Rice to played please repost it. Is there 1 person who asked or suggested it?

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    Seasoned Pro cfdh_edmundo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diggs246 View Post
    Lads we cant trick or cod people into playing for Ireland. Captain hindsight is great, but its not the way forward. I would like to ask all of you to check your posts before rhe build up to the Moldova and Wales double header and if you called for Rice to played please repost it. Is there 1 person who asked or suggested it?

    People were suggesting this policy back in 2015 at the time Grealish looked like slipping away.

    https://foot.ie/threads/148358-Jack-...825&highlight=

    Quote Originally Posted by cfdh_edmundo View Post
    Yeah I probably would advocate that. If we were comfortably winning against a minnow in a competitive game (e.g. 3 goal lead 2 mins to play and had a spare sub) I would do it. Certainly if we had an under 21 player who looked like a huge prospect and there was a chance another federation could pick him then yes I would cap-tie him. If we had forced the issue with Grealish a year or two ago then one of two things would have happened to him:

    (a) he would have played for us and become cap-tied to us
    (b) he would have said no and we would at least have had it made obvious that he saw his future with another national team

    I supposed there is a possibility that (b) would have been fudged into a (c) where the FAI would have said "we don't want to put him under pressure" and the issue would have been kicked into the long grass, though it would have only delayed the decision.

    With (a) you potentially get a quality player guaranteed to be tied to your team, even if he's a duffer you've only used 2-3 mins of (pretty much inconsequential) game time which could have gone to another player. With (b) well at least you know his heart isn't in it and you can drop him from the U-21s etc and let other, more committed players, develop in the youth teams.

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    Don't think this proves much Diggs? I didn't look, but am guessing that no one was calling for Crowley's inclusion before those games. We were at the end of a campaign and the likelihood of a brand new player coming into the mix was really a non-starter given MON's methods, and truth be told most manager's methods. Point is, if he had been included from the beginning of the campaign (assuming he was eligible at that time) things might have worked out differently? Or perhaps not. But we'll never know until we try something different for our midfielders who have spent way too long studying cloud formation.

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    First Team TrapAPony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diggs246 View Post
    Lads we cant trick or cod people into playing for Ireland.
    It has nothing to do with tricking or codding people into playing for Ireland. It is about calling their bluff and weeding these lads out relatively early on.
    "We lost because we didn't win"- Ronaldo

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    Quote Originally Posted by tetsujin1979 View Post
    That is my understanding, once the paperwork is complete, he can only represent England from then on.
    I'm disappointed at the level of misunderstanding on this aspect. Declan has to be capped by England at competitive level before he is regarded as officially 'switched'.
    Same as Grealish became ineligible for Ireland once he was capped by England in a u21 qual, as a late sub.

    If Declan is not capped at competitive level for England, in theory he can redeclare for Ireland.

    Just why do you think there is so much fuss over MoN not capping Declan at senior competitive level? Being capped is is the Fifa equivalent of a baptism.
    Last edited by geysir; 14/02/2019 at 10:30 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by geysir View Post
    I'm disappointed at the level of misunderstanding (aka ignorance) on this aspect . Declan has to be capped by England at competitive level before he is regarded as officially 'switched'.
    Same as Grealish became ineligible for Ireland once he was capped by England in a u21 qual, as a late sub.

    If Rice is not capped at competitive level for England, in theory he can redeclare for Ireland
    Thats not correct though. Once his clearance is passed to change association he is gone.

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    Capped Player DeLorean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geysir View Post
    If Declan is not capped at competitive level for England, in theory he can redeclare for Ireland.
    I'm pretty sure this is incorrect, Geysir. If you're only allowed one formal change of association, how then can he redeclare for Ireland after the paperwork has been completed?
    This has been discussed in the same vein previously, maybe somebody can officially confirm one way or the other. Where is DannyInvincible anyway?

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    Last edited by Deckydee; 15/02/2019 at 8:27 AM.
    The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist thinks it will change; the realist adjusts the sails.

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    Biased against YOUR club pineapple stu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geysir View Post
    Just why do you think there is so much fuss over MoN not capping Declan at senior competitive level? Being capped is is the Fifa equivalent of a baptism.
    Because once you're capped at senior competitive level, you can't file papers to change associations.

    But it can still follow that, once you file papers to change associations, you can't change back again. Those two options aren't mutually exclusive.

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    Art. 8.jpg

    Art. 8 of the Regulations Governing the Application of the FIFA Statutes. The key part is "he may, only once, request to change the association for which he is eligible to play international matches to the association of another country of which he holds nationality". So, once he has submitted the requisite written, substantiated request to FIFA to change from Ireland to England, Rice would be precluded from ever submitting a request to change back. Once FIFA approves the switch, it seems to me, that's it - there's no way back. If he withdrew his request, that would be different.

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    Capped Player DeLorean's Avatar
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    I'm disappointed with Geysir's level of misunderstanding on this aspect.

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  14. #772
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    This has come up before - the point at which a change of registration is considered to be irreversible.

    Is it when somebody at FIFA stamps the word APPROVED on his application, or is it only when he actually makes that first competitive appearance for his new association.

    I seems to remember a poster on here (Danny Invincible?) linking to some player who submitted such an application, wasn't capped by his new association within a couple of years (or something like that), and then went back to play for his original association.

    Maybe my memory is wrong though, maybe the player just tried to do that, argued that it should be allowed, or something.

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    Capped Player DeLorean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by osarusan View Post
    Is it when somebody at FIFA stamps the word APPROVED on his application, or is it only when he actually makes that first competitive appearance for his new association.
    It seems clear enough to me it's the former. If it's the latter then surely that would be clearly stated.

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    I agree - seems clear that it's when the request is approved by FIFA. Based on the text, the scenario seems to be that you can request a change only once, and when FIFA approves that request, you can never change nationality again. It's irrelevant whether or not you actually play a competitive match for the national team.

    For this reason, Grealish can never reclaim his Irish eligibility - even if he never plays for England - because he has already made his one request and it was approved by FIFA.

    Rice has made his one request and, once approved by FIFA, will likewise be designated as English instead of Irish. He can never revert to being Irish as that would be a second request. The only possibility of him remaining Irish, as far as I can see, is if (a) FIFA rejects the request, or (b) he withdraws the request prior to FIFA making a decision. If he did the latter, he could never apply for a change of national affiliation ever again and (as far as I can see) would be Irish for life!

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    Seasoned Pro NeverFeltBetter's Avatar
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    I'll admit, part of me would be curious to catch a glimpse of that alternate universe, and see if he would be picked to play for Ireland after all this.

    It's a crappy situation, and the "proud Englishman" stuff seems tailor-made to enrage people who saw him put on an Irish shirt from underage to senior. The way this took so long to sort out also paints a negative picture of Rice. Who knows how he will actually get on under Southgate, is he really good enough for a consistent place in the English set-up?
    Author of Never Felt Better (History, Film Reviews).

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    This old chestnut......
    If anyone want to read https://foot.ie/threads/147164-Eligibility-Rules-Okay/ and find an answer, be my guest.
    I don't remember any definitive proof either way. But let's not derail Declan Rice thread, fifa statutes or no fifa statutes, he won't play for Ireland again.

    FYI, here's what I asked Fifa back in 2012
    Subject: Eligiblity to play for Representative teams

    Dear Sir or Madam,

    I have a question regarding the 'Eligiblity to play for Representative teams' in the FIFA Statutes, particularly the 'Change of Association'.

    After an association has submitted the appropriate request to FIFA declaring the a player wants to change association. When does the change come into effect? Is is when FIFA approves the request or when the player makes a competitive appearance for his new association?

    I guess what I'm asking, is, if Player A, makes a request to change from Association A to Association B and the request is approved, can Player A change his mind and play for Association A again?

    If not, how did Bobby Zamora play for Eng U21(in competition), declare for Trinidad and Tobago, not make an appearance, then subsequently play for England Seniors?

    Kindest Regards
    joe_denilson
    And the reply
    Dear Mr. _denilson,

    Thank you for your enquiry.

    We can answer your question as follows:
    If a player has changed associations, but never played for the other association (youth matches not included as they are not counting as senior caps) he can switch to the other one again. Meaning, as long as a player has not played for any senior side he can switch associations as long as he wants to. Besides that, a change comes into effect when FIFA approves it.

    Hopefully we have successfully responded to your query.

    Thank you for your interest.


    Kind regards,
    *****
    Communications & Public Affairs Division
    FIFA - Fédération Internationale de Football Association
    www.FIFA.com


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  20. #777
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    Quote Originally Posted by joe_denilson View Post
    I don't remember any definitive proof either way. But let's not derail Declan Rice thread, fifa statutes or no fifa statutes, he won't play for Ireland again.
    Don't worry, it'll be gathering dust soon enough in the foot.ie basement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe_denilson View Post
    This old chestnut......
    If anyone want to read https://foot.ie/threads/147164-Eligibility-Rules-Okay/ and find an answer, be my guest.
    I don't remember any definitive proof either way. But let's not derail Declan Rice thread, fifa statutes or no fifa statutes, he won't play for Ireland again.

    FYI, here's what I asked Fifa back in 2012


    And the reply
    I actually don't understand FIFA answer there? (I have a hangover that could kill a horse, which isn't helping)

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    Capped Player DeLorean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diggs246 View Post
    I actually don't understand FIFA answer there? (I have a hangover that could kill a horse, which isn't helping)
    Me neither really, and I'm fresh as a daisy

    I presume the level of vagueness is the reason Joe doesn't see it as definitive proof either way though?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeLorean View Post
    Me neither really, and I'm fresh as a daisy

    I presume the level of vagueness is the reason Joe doesn't see it as definitive proof either way though?
    Yeah fairly unhelpful, and what you'd expect from somebody called *****.

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