pope debate

[piratemousey]

yes- super pope infallable never wrong hates women hates you all and wants you to kiss his ring.

[sligoman]

Personally, I think it is a disgrace that he is still the pope.The catholic church is been made a mockery of, I think the man should retire and enjoy whatever time he has left. I mean he can't even say a proper mass, he has to stop every now and again so his drool can be cleaned up. It's a disgrace.

[finlma]

Did anyone see him trying to get the doves out the window of the Vatican the other day? How I laughed.

[liam88]

That's harsh-he's been called by God and is respected by millions of Catholics world wide; he's done us a brilliant service and I'm honoured even to share the same lifetime as him.....I say God Bless him!
As ccfcman said-the greatest priest of all!

[Plastic Paddy]

That's harsh-he's been called by God and is respected by millions of Catholics world wide; he's done us a brilliant service and I'm honoured even to share the same lifetime as him.....I say God Bless him

Harsh? Harsh?!? I'll give you harsh, Liam. What about the millions of African Catholics now dying of AIDS because of his refusal to budge on the contraception issue? And what about his refusal to issue an apology to Jews over Catholic collusion with Nazis in wartime Croatia and other parts of eastern Europe? Never mind the continual wealth- and empire-building the Church engages in at the expense of feeding the poor and fighting for social justice. I could go on.

On a human level, I too wish him all the best for a speedy recovery. But don't go talking of "brilliant service". He's managed to keep the Catholic Church in the Dark Ages and in doing so deny God's compassion to millions. "The greatest priest of all". Indeed.

PP

[Éanna]

Harsh? Harsh?!? I'll give you harsh, Liam. What about the millions of African Catholics now dying of AIDS because of his refusal to budge on the contraception issue? And what about his refusal to issue an apology to Jews over Catholic collusion with Nazis in wartime Croatia and other parts of eastern Europe? Never mind the continual wealth- and empire-building the Church engages in at the expense of feeding the poor and fighting for social justice. I could go on.

On a human level, I too wish him all the best for a speedy recovery. But don't go talking of "brilliant service". He's managed to keep the Catholic Church in the Dark Ages and in doing so deny God's compassion to millions. "The greatest priest of all". Indeed.

PP

brilliantly put. I was biting my lip, but I'm glad someone said it. Of course on a human level, its horrible to see anyone suffering like that.

[liam88]

Harsh? Harsh?!? I'll give you harsh, Liam. What about the millions of African Catholics now dying of AIDS because of his refusal to budge on the contraception issue?

The Pope preches abstiance until marriage. He also preaches against contraception.
If they followed his teaching on both then it would not be an issue. If they followed his teachings on neither he would be expempt of any blame.

There is no WAY you can pin the AIDS crisis on the Pope because if they poor sufferers only listen to half of his teaching then how is he to blame!

There are also thousdands of evangelical Christians and Muslims in Africa-it is not under control of our Pope.

It's a sad misconception to pin this on the Pope.........go on then "give me harsh"; i thought you were one to respect others opinions without coming out with comments like the "dark ages".

[finlma]

The Pope preches abstiance until marriage. He also preaches against contraception.

Come on Liam - who is going to subscribe to abstinance in this day and age. Its a very rare and un-natural thing.

[liam88]

Come on Liam - who is going to subscribe to abstinance in this day and age. Its a very rare and un-natural thing.

Abstinace before marriage is somethign many Catholcis do subscribe to.
The point I was trying to make was that if they are prepared to listen to the Pope on contraception and follow him 100% by never using a condom even when AIDS is rife why do they not listen to him on contraception....
There are holes all over that argument and piled on top is some off the wall theory about Catholcis being in conclusion with the Nazis to massacre Jews. Look I'm not going to change my stance, and I personally find those kind of allegation against my faith and my Pope offensive.....Ive had enough anti-Catholic cr*p growing up why do I need more now especially from someone I got on weel with like PP?

[finlma]

90% of my friends are Catholic as am I (by birth only). I don't know a single person that has subsribed to abstinance.

I think Catholicism is a bit of a joke and the way the pope is revered as a Godly figure is beyond me.

Everyone is entitled to their beliefs but I don't need JP telling me how to lead my life.

Try Buddhism out for size. I'm hoping to come back as an eagle myself.

[Éanna]

The Pope preches abstiance until marriage. He also preaches against contraception.
If they followed his teaching on both then it would not be an issue. If they followed his teachings on neither he would be expempt of any blame.

absolute and utter bolloks. what about a woman who is a good catholic, who marries her husband and then catches aids from him because she won't wear a condom? Is that her fault? And then its passed on to her kids? is it their fault? We've been thru all this before, but the simple fact is that this man and the organisation he leads are living in the dark ages, and not just on this issue either.

There are also thousdands of evangelical Christians and Muslims in Africa-it is not under control of our Pope.

your pope. not our pope

Abstinace before marriage is somethign many Catholcis do subscribe to.

its something many people subscribe to for various reasons. it should be a personal choice, not a matter of being told what to do by people who have no idea what they're talking about.

some off the wall theory about Catholcis being in conclusion with the Nazis to massacre Jews.

thats not an off-the-wall theory. its a fact. read some history books. its there for everyone to see.

Ive had enough anti-Catholic cr*p

its not anti-catholic at all. Its people expressing valid opinions on a matter that (unfortunately) affects most of us to varying degrees. You are adopting the same attitude as the bush administration- "with us or against us" I'm not anti-Catholic. I respect people's right to their beliefs, whether I agree or disagree with them. I just wish that the same people would respect my right to disagree with them, and with aspects of their beliefs without getting hysterical and labelling me.

[liam88]

absolute and utter bolloks. what about a woman who is a good catholic, who marries her husband and then catches aids from him because she won't wear a condom? Is that her fault? And then its passed on to her kids? is it their fault? We've been thru all this before, but the simple fact is that this man and the organisation he leads are living in the dark ages, and not just on this issue either.


your pope. not our pope

Our as in mine an ma fellow Catholics!
No of course it's not her fault, yes AIDS is a horrible thing but it's naive, closed minded and shallow to blame it all on OUR Pope.

Like I said I'm not going to argue this out because I'm not going to budge, you guys arn't going to budge and I'm just getting offended by these comments.
If people I've known and respected like PP want to fall out over this by making agressive comments then fine (of course the lives of people in Africa are more important than our friendship)-sorry if I'm going over the top on any of this but I've had a relally bad day and probably a worse evening....I'm going to leave it at that.

[Éanna]

No of course it's not her fault, yes AIDS is a horrible thing but it's naive, closed minded and shallow to blame it all on OUR Pope.
.

right. so she doesn't use a condom because the Church said not to. The pope is head of the church. How is it NOT his fault?

Like I said I'm not going to argue this out because I'm not going to budge, you guys arn't going to budge and I'm just getting offended by these comments.

because its indefensible. thats why. saying you're getting offended is a cop-out.

If people I've known and respected like PP want to fall out over this by making agressive comments then fine (of course the lives of people in Africa are more important than our friendship)-

they are not agressive comments. they're valid questions. again, a cop-out.

[Éanna]

i've split the thread, as it was gone wildly off topic

Éanna

[liam88]

right. so she doesn't use a condom because the Church said not to. The pope is head of the church. How is it NOT his fault?


because its indefensible. thats why. saying you're getting offended is a cop-out.


they are not agressive comments. they're valid questions. again, a cop-out.

For goodness sake-I'm notstanding my ground because it's 'indefensible' i'm not budging because it is my BELIEF. She doesn't have to have sex with him if she thinks he has AIDS/I WAS getting offended it wasn't a 'cop-out'/"Harsh? Harsh?!? I'll give you harsh, Liam." I regarded that as offensive coming from a man I hope I'm mates with.....you can come up with whatever reason you like for me leaving it a that.
Mabye the fact I've had a $hite day is a "cop-out" for you, mabye the fact I've had to stand up to racism and religious prejudice at school and don't want to have argue on matters like this here is a "cop-out"......honestly mate it's up to you but I'm not going to argue it anymore-call it what you will...

[dancinpants]

C'mere a minute - the pope isn't TELLING youse what and what not to do. I'm a Catholic and he's never told me a single thing!!!. Take what the church teaches as "suggestions" and you all mightn't feel so hard done by!!. Maybe its uptight parents (that beat youse up the road to mass every sunday mornin') that youse should be blaming and not the Catholic church. BTW theres whackier and more old fashioned religions out there!!!.

[Éanna]

I know he's not telling me what to do, but think of ireland 20/30/40 years ago. What the church said was law. In a lot of poorer countries that is still the case. People are afraid to go against the church. I've no problem with the Church having views in things, but they're so utterly vehement in their opinions, they only just stop short of telling people "condoms send you to hell"

[dancinpants]

Well could someone tell me what denomination claims that shagging rings around you is OK?

[finlma]

Well could someone tell me what denomination claims that shagging rings around you is OK?

Eanna didn't say that any of them did. You're taking his argument, twisting it and coming up with a statement like that. And who shags rings anyway? Cue gay jokes .

[Plastic Paddy]

The Pope preches abstiance until marriage. He also preaches against contraception. If they followed his teaching on both then it would not be an issue. If they followed his teachings on neither he would be expempt of any blame.

There is no WAY you can pin the AIDS crisis on the Pope because if they poor sufferers only listen to half of his teaching then how is he to blame!

With respect, Liam, that's the sort of self-righteousness that typifies the Church's approach to this issue. A dose of reality is required. And - dare I say this? - when you yourself have seen a little more of life, then maybe your views will moderate. I don't mean to appear patronising, I really don't, but I was as strident as you at the same age and (often bitter) experience has taught me that the Church's teachings are on occasion way off the mark.

It's a sad misconception to pin this on the Pope.........go on then "give me harsh"; i thought you were one to respect others opinions without coming out with comments like the "dark ages".

The first rule of debate is NEVER take comments made by others personally. Unfortunately, that's exactly what you appear to have done. Look, let's get this straight. Despite your incorrect inference from my post, I'm not anti-Catholic (and nor was my comment "crap", but that's by the by). I am Catholic, and indeed very proud to be so. I just find it very hard to reconcile the notion of a compassionate God with a Church that dehumanises the suffering of millions in the way it has.

I'm sorry that my strong response seems to have caused you particular offence, as that honestly wasn't the intention. But please be clear on one thing. I have the absolute right to challenge you on anything about which I hold different views, just as you do with mine. Sometimes that entails the use of emotive language. But it is not, I repeat NOT, a personal attack on you.

FWIW, If I think you're a c**t, I'll call you a c**t. I don't, so I didn't. Friends now?

PP