No Football or Rugby at Croke Park

[gspain]

Like I said, I was open to correction and this is a fair point. I think this is a local thing as much as anything else rather than an institutional one. If the GAA is such a fan of national liberation - which I have a feeling is window dressing more than anything else - then why doesn't my local GAA club - Dublin 6W - have any rallies or anything? Sinn Fein topped the poll in Dublin South West, they wouldn't be short on supporters. I think they don't because the area isn't Tyrone which has been a violent county for centuries. If Ireland was perfect, the GAA would be an outstanding organisation and lead the way in shunning the Shinners. Ireland's not perfect and the GAA is nothing without its grassroots. If HQ on Jones' Road tells Crossmaglen to start being nice to British soldiers and to publicly come out against the IRA, I don't think it would go down well. I'm not an apologist for the actions of the IRA or the GAA but I think what you're talking about is a local thing, both GAA and IRA, and not an institutional one.

Did the GAA not remove the ban on security forces playing relatively recently? It's not exactly the big bang but it's something.

I will accept that the GAA got rid of Rule 21 and fair play there.

I should also point out in fairness that they subsequently stopped pro IRA motions going to Congress in the early 80's - 82 I think. I also appreciate the GAA in NI is very different to that down here however it is one organisation and the nutters in cork or Waterford would outdo anything from Tyrone or Armagh. However I think an opportunity was missed to express support for a peaceful "re-integration of the national territory" or whatever the GAA constitution calls it.

I also have no doubt that a GAA club in Dublin 6W or Laois or Kerry is concerned with the price of jerseys or trying to get a team out on a sunday rather than the "Struggle for national liberation"

However it is a minority of bigots that give the association a bad name and they obviously have huge power.

Interestingly Paddy Power have the odds of Croke Park staying closed at 4/6. 11/10 to open up.

http://www.paddypower.com/betaction=..._id=58&id=3511

[Donal81]

[QUOTE=gspain]I will accept that the GAA got rid of Rule 21 and fair play there.

I should also point out in fairness that they subsequently stopped pro IRA motions going to Congress in the early 80's - 82 I think. I also appreciate the GAA in NI is very different to that down here however it is one organisation and the nutters in cork or Waterford would outdo anything from Tyrone or Armagh. However I think an opportunity was missed to express support for a peaceful "re-integration of the national territory" or whatever the GAA constitution calls it.

I also have no doubt that a GAA club in Dublin 6W or Laois or Kerry is concerned with the price of jerseys or trying to get a team out on a sunday rather than the "Struggle for national liberation"

However it is a minority of bigots that give the association a bad name and they obviously have huge power.[QUOTE]

I was in the Ardoyne once and came across a mural in a republican area of people playing GAA. The mural said something like "this is our culture." The GAA is the probably the biggest organisation in Ireland and if people in Ardoyne choose to use the GAA as a symbol of defiance/pride/hatred, there isn't much we can do about it, such is the make up of Ireland. I wouldn't say that the GAA is full of bigots but rather that it doesn't seem to want to interfere with the grassroots level. I find the examples that you use fairly twisted and can see why you don't like them but I don't think it's bigotry at an institutional level and I don't think they have huge power either at a national level.

[lopez]

The IRA;s stated aim is to overthrow the government of this state and establish a 32 county All Ireland ruled by them. I never stated it was the GAA's maim but in supporting the struggle for national liberation they are supporting the IRA.Myers quoted the motion and he hardly got it wrong. It was not refuted.

First you said: 'Are the following acceptable or examples of bigotry. 1) Official policy to "Support the struggle for national liberation" ' Well is closing down your sporting fixtures not 'in defence of the Union' also acceptable or bigotry? I've yet to see NIRFC or other Ulster clubs refute this. Maybe they have. Maybe they haven't.

Then you said: 'The "struggle for national liberation" was clearly meant to refer to the IRA. Yes I have a big problem with that. That struggle also aims to overthrow this state.' This implies that the GAA were supporting the overthrow of the state. I don't support the IRA nor its post GFA activities of running sectors of the O6C like parts of Mogadishu where the will of local warlords decide whether it's a kneecapping or having your neck throat and head stamped on, as with Robert McCartney, but I do support the 'struggle for national liberation' if that means the all-Ireland state denied in 1918. Far from getting it right, Myers' article - as with so much of his sh*te, be it the provos, immigration or 'B*stards' - does not detail in what respect this was argued. Indeed, he accepts that those three important letters were never even mentioned in the debate, but nudge nudge, wink wink, we all know what was argued.

'It's true that no mention of the IRA was made in this motion; nor was it necessary. The "struggle for national liberation" had then and has now only one meaning - and that was the terrorist campaign by the IRA.'

Well actually, some of us like our evidence a little bit more substantial than that. And indeed most of us are not going to sell out our country because parts of its nationalism has been hijacked by violence over the past 30 years - violence for which Myers and others like Ruth Dudley Edwards are quick to point to its present, disgusting state rather than what actually gave birth to it all. After all the remaining remnants of the IRA were told in 1961 to destroy their guns: The war was unequivically over and they were defeated as much by apathy as by the governments of Britain and Ireland.

And so the questions I'd like to ask is: Was it that the GAA becomes unconditionally the athletic wing of the Provos? Does it support the violent struggle for national liberation without Dublin? Does it support the violent struggle for national liberation according to Dublin? Does it support - a la Gandhi - the non-violent struggle for national liberation? Is it just a sop to people like Crossmaglen Rangers and the Ulster Board whose grounds (Casement Park) were 'billeted' by what to me, let alone them, is an army of occupation. (BTW: How many IRA rallies have there been at CR's grounds in the past three decades?). If anything, the GAA's statement opened the door for the UDA/UVF/'Crown Forces' to legitimise the assasination of the association's members in NI, something else which escapes Myers own fantastic ANALysis.

[Eire06]

To get right back to the origional point again......

The FAI seem to be gettin an awful lot of well deserved critism over the whole stadium issue but the IRFU don't seem to be gettin any of the blame..... Whats the story there?
I think everyone just loves to hate the FAI cause they seem to mess everything up.... And the IRFU are usually quite composed... but still there is the two of them in it

[monutdfc]

To get right back to the origional point again......

The FAI seem to be gettin an awful lot of well deserved critism over the whole stadium issue but the IRFU don't seem to be gettin any of the blame..... Whats the story there?
I think everyone just loves to hate the FAI cause they seem to mess everything up.... And the IRFU are usually quite composed... but still there is the two of them in it

Eh, I think you'll find that the IRFU have their own stadium, albeit a bit of a ramshackle one by today's standards (built before professionalism which helps with the cashflow).

Anyone any idea how much the FAI grossed from Euro 88, Italia 90, USA 94 and Japan-Korea 00? There is this impression around that they should have built a stadium with this money. Now, I'm no fan of the FAI and they seem to be experts in throwing money away, but would the money from those tournaments plus qualifiers have gone anywhere near to building a stadium? I doubt it, but I'd love to see the actual figures.

[Eire06]

Eh, I think you'll find that the IRFU have their own stadium, albeit a bit of a ramshackle one by today's standards (built before professionalism which helps with the cashflow).
.

I know they have a stadium but its hardly worth talkin about compared to other teams of their level.. They are going to be without a home too while its being done up...

[Schumi]

Anyone any idea how much the FAI grossed from Euro 88, Italia 90, USA 94 and Japan-Korea 00? There is this impression around that they should have built a stadium with this money. Now, I'm no fan of the FAI and they seem to be experts in throwing money away, but would the money from those tournaments plus qualifiers have gone anywhere near to building a stadium? I doubt it, but I'd love to see the actual figures.

I think the money from one or other of the finals tournaments was put at 3 million which wouldn't go too far towards a new stadium.

[lopez]

...Anyone any idea how much the FAI grossed from Euro 88, Italia 90, USA 94 and Japan-Korea 00? There is this impression around that they should have built a stadium with this money. Now, I'm no fan of the FAI and they seem to be experts in throwing money away, but would the money from those tournaments plus qualifiers have gone anywhere near to building a stadium? I doubt it, but I'd love to see the actual figures.

They would have been throwing away the money if they spent it on a stadium. As I stated earlier, what other FAs in Europe have their own stadium? They either use clubs' grounds or have the government build the stadiums for them. In the rest of the world where the game is not the most popular - eg: the US - other sports accomodate them.

[gspain]

Just to confirm I've spoken with my uncle who attended most home and away rugby games thorughout the 70's and 80's. GSTQ was never played for an Ireland team away even by mistake. It was most likely a royal visitor to Cardiff.

Note ist is still policy to play GSTQ and fly the UJ for home games in NI.

[Donal81]

They would have been throwing away the money if they spent it on a stadium. As I stated earlier, what other FAs in Europe have their own stadium? They either use clubs' grounds or have the government build the stadiums for them. In the rest of the world where the game is not the most popular - eg: the US - other sports accomodate them.

Very true, I can't think of any FA that owns their own completely. When I say on this thread that the FAI has itself to blame for not having its own stadium, I mean that it hasn't come up with one viable, smart and workable idea, there have been no organised campaigns, no publicity, no leaflets, no articulate spokesperson to call on the Government to do something. Instead of moving forward, it's remained static and is in no better position than it was FIFTEEN YEARS AGO when we went to Italy. While people were in boardrooms coming up with the Stade de France and the Millenium Stadium, Milo Corcoran and Brendan Menton were arranging our next friendly tour of the USA or Eastern Europe.

While the IRFU were coming up with a 10 year business plan in order to grow rugby around the country, to make the move to professionalism, to bring the Irish players home from Britain, to develop sponsorship, etc, people were taking personal loans from the FAI's coffers and they were flogging rights to Sky Sports. This is why the FAI and those who support Irish soccer are left in this situation. It's not the Government, it's not the GAA, it's not rule 42. Croke Park is only the immediate issue. It stems from the above.

There hasn't been one iota of vision in the FAI since I've been following international football that hasn't been immediately subsumed into the organisation's base level incompetence.

[gspain]

Very true, I can't think of any FA that owns their own completely. When I say on this thread that the FAI has itself to blame for not having its own stadium, I mean that it hasn't come up with one viable, smart and workable idea, there have been no organised campaigns, no publicity, no leaflets, no articulate spokesperson to call on the Government to do something. Instead of moving forward, it's remained static and is in no better position than it was FIFTEEN YEARS AGO when we went to Italy. While people were in boardrooms coming up with the Stade de France and the Millenium Stadium, Milo Corcoran and Brendan Menton were arranging our next friendly tour of the USA or Eastern Europe.

While the IRFU were coming up with a 10 year business plan in order to grow rugby around the country, to make the move to professionalism, to bring the Irish players home from Britain, to develop sponsorship, etc, people were taking personal loans from the FAI's coffers and they were flogging rights to Sky Sports. This is why the FAI and those who support Irish soccer are left in this situation. It's not the Government, it's not the GAA, it's not rule 42. Croke Park is only the immediate issue. It stems from the above.

There hasn't been one iota of vision in the FAI since I've been following international football that hasn't been immediately subsumed into the organisation's base level incompetence.

I know I got slaughtered for this before but i'll say it again. the F.A.I. did have plans for a stadium - Eircom Park and it was plans without any government funding. they made the right deciison to drop it in favour of Abbottstown but hadn't banked on the government changing its mind. there were numerous petitions etc re a national stadium. i remember one which included a Casino in Phoenix Park.

There was never apot of gold from the major championships and no national association generrates the kind of funding required for amajor stadium without state help. Rememebr stadia are not good business ventures. From a business perspective they don't make sense.

Now the F.A.I. is far from perfect but consider a few more facts outside of the stadium issue.

We have a country with a population of 3.7 million and domestic league that is ranked in the bottom 20% in europe.

1) Our national team is currently ranked 12th in the world

2) We've qualified for 3 of the last 4 world cups

3) Football is by far the largest participant sport in the country and has been for the last 19 years Indeed even in Kerry which is a GAA heartland there are more people playing Association Football than Gaelic Football.

4) We've had huge success at underage and a steady stream of talent coming through.

5) Organised coached teams playing regular football in regular seasons week in week out and both underage and adult levels across the country.

6) Sports TV viewing figures for RTE indicate that in 14 of the past 15 years the biggest audiences have been football matches. In many of those years Internationals would have twice the viewing figures of the gaelic All Ireland (biggest GAA game)

The weaknesses as i see them are

1) Our domestic league is miles behind the GAA and provincial rugby fro ma marketing and funding point of view.

2) As a spectator sport outside of the national team again we are miles behind the GAA (I don't count a barstool and Sky Sports as being a spectator)

3) Facilities - getting better right around the country but by and large not up to the level of the GAA clubs.

[gspain]

There was any number of things that could have happened apart from the economy taking a downturn, FF could've been dumped out at the subsequent election and a Rainbow Coalition binned the project - they were hostile to the whole concept anyway.

and nothig to do with Mary and her 8 seats telling Bertie with his ~80 who wears the trousers in government.

Sad because I still believe it was the right decision to build it in the first place if only they hadn't wasted so much money on feasibility stidues and just built the thing.

[Donal81]

[QUOTE=gspain]I know I got slaughtered for this before but i'll say it again. the F.A.I. did have plans for a stadium - Eircom Park and it was plans without any government funding. they made the right deciison to drop it in favour of Abbottstown but hadn't banked on the government changing its mind. there were numerous petitions etc re a national stadium. i remember one which included a Casino in Phoenix Park.

There was never apot of gold from the major championships and no national association generrates the kind of funding required for amajor stadium without state help. Rememebr stadia are not good business ventures. From a business perspective they don't make sense.[QUOTE=gspain]

I was going to mention Eircom Park but didn't think that anyone would treat that as a measure of the FAI's ambition. They made a cute little model stadium and talked about it for a while and then cried wolf when Abbotstown was binned.

Gspain, I'm not saying it's a piece of p!ss to build a stadium but the FAI have never put together any professional lobbying campaign to really get it underway, never put forward a decent, workable concrete proposal.

Why didn't they come to the Government after Euro 88? After Italia 90? Any time during the 1990s? All those years, all that money wasted. That's why I struggle to understand why fans choose to throw their abuse at the GAA for the possible lack of a stadium.

[Sunnyside Up]

Ya but thats not in Croke park...

I know a lot of people that would take great offence in God save the queen being played there and theyre reason is that they are still bitter about Bloody Sunday and it would be disrespectful the memory of the people who were killed by the black and tans

That has nothing to do with it. GSTQ was played at Croke Park during the special Olympics.

However, if you cast your mind back, the FAI refused to play GSTQ at Lansdowne Road when England played Ireland in the Euro 92 Qualifier. Meanwhile the English did play Amhran na Bhfiann at Wembley in the return fixture. But of course such facts will rarely stop the soccer fraternity in this country from any opportunity at calling the GAA backwoodsmen rednecks living in the past. That is the only bigotry on display here.

Another point - Croke Park is already set up so that floodlights can be added at any time. Were they not installed for the Special Olympics.

The final myth is that taxpayers paid for Croke Park. What funds that were given came from the National Lottery which is not a forced taxation but rather something set up so that the proceeds go to Sport. All sports in this country have benifed from Lottery money - a tonne was ploughed into Dalymount Park and that fiasco of a stadium Shamrock Rovers are trying to build in Tallagh. At least the funds that did go to Croke Park were put to good use.

As well as that, the government has received more money back from the GAA, in returns to the exchequor than they have given. The funds given to Croker have provided a nice Return on Investment for the Government. It's what you call business. If you invest money in something and gain, well that's your good fortune. If you throw money at something useless (choose which ever failed FAI venture of your choice) then you lose.

[Eire06]

That has nothing to do with it. GSTQ was played at Croke Park during the special Olympics.

However, if you cast your mind back, the FAI refused to play GSTQ at Lansdowne Road when England played Ireland in the Euro 92 Qualifier. Meanwhile the English did play Amhran na Bhfiann at Wembley in the return fixture. But of course such facts will rarely stop the soccer fraternity in this country from any opportunity at calling the GAA backwoodsmen rednecks living in the past. That is the only bigotry on display here.

Ok firstly if you read the WHOLE thread you will see in an earlier post I actually asked was it played at the Special Olymics...

And It must be a factor because people are using it as there arguement against opening Croker. (there was a whole debate on the last word about it) So yes it has something to do with it.. This is my first post which you seemed to skipped conviently over. I asked the question too see had this arguement any legs to stand on ( had it been played there before)

Apparantly one of the biggest problems for people against opening Croker is that the don't want God save the Queen played there and the thought of a union Jack flying over croker is just wrong....

But would it not have been there at the special Olympics, was the anthem played there, if an english participant won it prob was... Anyone know??

At another point if you read the post you will see it is not my opinion that I am posting 'Apparantly one of the biggest problems for people' kinda gives that away don't you think.. I have not come to a decision ( Not that it matters) yet on the matter, i don't like to jump to conclusions when I don't know all the facts

England playing Amhran na Bhfiann and Ireland playing GSTQ are two different things Ireland never tried to take over England now did we

At that I fully support the GAA in whatever decision they choose I will think it is a shame if we have to go abroad to play home matches.. and have never refered to them as 'backwoodsmen rednecks ' neither would I I'm extremly proud of what they have achieved and what they have done for this country

[gspain]

That has nothing to do with it. GSTQ was played at Croke Park during the special Olympics.

However, if you cast your mind back, the FAI refused to play GSTQ at Lansdowne Road when England played Ireland in the Euro 92 Qualifier. Meanwhile the English did play Amhran na Bhfiann at Wembley in the return fixture. But of course such facts will rarely stop the soccer fraternity in this country from any opportunity at calling the GAA backwoodsmen rednecks living in the past. That is the only bigotry on display here.

Another point - Croke Park is already set up so that floodlights can be added at any time. Were they not installed for the Special Olympics.

The final myth is that taxpayers paid for Croke Park. What funds that were given came from the National Lottery which is not a forced taxation but rather something set up so that the proceeds go to Sport. All sports in this country have benifed from Lottery money - a tonne was ploughed into Dalymount Park and that fiasco of a stadium Shamrock Rovers are trying to build in Tallagh. At least the funds that did go to Croke Park were put to good use.

As well as that, the government has received more money back from the GAA, in returns to the exchequor than they have given. The funds given to Croker have provided a nice Return on Investment for the Government. It's what you call business. If you invest money in something and gain, well that's your good fortune. If you throw money at something useless (choose which ever failed FAI venture of your choice) then you lose.

GSTQ was not played in 1990 due to a mixup between the 2 FAs. There was a deal with the IFA not to play either national anthem before the RoI v NI games. GSTQ was played before the friendly match at Lansdowne in 1995 and unfortunately booed by a small section of the crowd. This remains the only time I can remember where Irish fans have not respected an opponents anthem. I was at the game in 78 too but was only a kid and can't remember if GSTQ was played but I assume it was.

GSTQ is played at England rugby Internationals and respected.

If you think not playing an anthem before a game even comes close to the bigotry of the gAA you must be sick.

Public money paid for half of Croke Park at least. Yes most of it is lottery funding but that is still public money and a tax and those who weren't very good at maths in school. The grants given to Dalymount and Tallaght are a pittance in comparison. Remember the GAA have also got susbtantial grants in relation to other developments. The grants for Lansdowne do equate to those for Croke Park however the government is also taking a stake for the taxpayer in the stadium.

[Thunderblaster]

Croke Park should be opened up as a certain amount of taxpayers money went into the redevelopment and a point to remember-not all taxpayers are G.A.A. supporters. It seems to be inappropiate that the G.A.A. allows American Football to be played in Croke Park and Compromise Rules Football, which is technically NOT an Irish game. The G.A.A promotes Greyhound Racing on the advertising hoardings and Greyhound Racing is a British sport. Remember Rule 27 that prohibited members from playing "foreign games"? That rule was enforced with brutal force at schools years ago. The "old stock" would surely have memories of getting beaten for playing soccer or expelled from school. Children did not play Gaelic games out of the love for them-they were forced into it by sheer brutality. Even today, there are children in rural parts of the West of Ireland that sneak out of their homes to play soccer as local G.A.A. clubs puts pressure on the kids to play Gaelic football. The narrow minded bigots that seem to call the shots are very hypocritical on the rule issue. Get rid of the bigots, open up Croke Park and let us all say that sport should be freely enjoyed by our children rather than certain sports being imposed on them a la Rule 27.

[Donal81]

Croke Park should be opened up as a certain amount of taxpayers money went into the redevelopment and a point to remember-not all taxpayers are G.A.A. supporters. It seems to be inappropiate that the G.A.A. allows American Football to be played in Croke Park and Compromise Rules Football, which is technically NOT an Irish game. The G.A.A promotes Greyhound Racing on the advertising hoardings and Greyhound Racing is a British sport. Remember Rule 27 that prohibited members from playing "foreign games"? That rule was enforced with brutal force at schools years ago. The "old stock" would surely have memories of getting beaten for playing soccer or expelled from school. Children did not play Gaelic games out of the love for them-they were forced into it by sheer brutality. Even today, there are children in rural parts of the West of Ireland that sneak out of their homes to play soccer as local G.A.A. clubs puts pressure on the kids to play Gaelic football. The narrow minded bigots that seem to call the shots are very hypocritical on the rule issue. Get rid of the bigots, open up Croke Park and let us all say that sport should be freely enjoyed by our children rather than certain sports being imposed on them a la Rule 27.

Can we get past this notion that those opposed to soccer in Croker are bigots? "The narrow minded bigots that seem to call the shots": Rule 42 is going to Congress with different motions having been put forward by 11 counties. Sean Kelly, the head of the GAA, is clearly in favour of soccer in Croker, does he not call at least some of the shots?

For the millionth time, calling the GAA bigots will get soccer fans nowhere. There are undoubtedly rednecks in the GAA as there are soccer rednecks and rugby rednecks in the FAI and IRFU, respectively. But to assume that soccer in Croker is simply being held up by bigots is just missing the GAA's point. 40-50% of GAA members are against opening the stadium up, are they all bigots?

[wexfordclockend]

Hurling site debates this issueHurlers
More posts on the above site if you search...

Hopefully those who can't stand the GAA & it's sports will not attend Croker soccer matches!

Leaving more tickets for real fans, even those who follow Hurling & a certain London soccer club!

[Sunnyside Up]

3) I think there is no doubt who Peter Canavan supports however the problem is not allowing Peter Canavan to play gaelic but in allowing him to play politics with the Sam Maguire Cup and to appear on SF election material in GAA kit displaying the GAA logo without comment or censure.

First of all, Peter Canavan did not have his GAA kit on. As an amateur player he can surely support whatever party he wants.

Secondly, the FAI have had no problem taking money from Sinn Fein and not so long ago have run an ad in an official ROI soccer program.

Thirdly, Irish soccer grounds have been used for Sinn Fein fundraisers.