pope debate

[dortie]

Harsh? Harsh?!? I'll give you harsh, Liam. What about the millions of African Catholics now dying of AIDS because of his refusal to budge on the contraception issue? And what about his refusal to issue an apology to Jews over Catholic collusion with Nazis in wartime Croatia and other parts of eastern Europe? Never mind the continual wealth- and empire-building the Church engages in at the expense of feeding the poor and fighting for social justice. I could go on.

On a human level, I too wish him all the best for a speedy recovery. But don't go talking of "brilliant service". He's managed to keep the Catholic Church in the Dark Ages and in doing so deny God's compassion to millions. "The greatest priest of all". Indeed.

PP

Thats right, blame the pope and the catholic church for the spread of Aids. How did the disease start off anyway, and indeed spread, it certainly wasnt due to catholic policy on sex !
You seem to be misguided on the 'riches and selfishness' of the church too !!! they dont have missions all over the world or raise millions on an annual basis for the poor do they ???
As for the Jews ? What in under feck are you on ? Catholics were also the target of the Nazis in Instances. Here why dont you condem the Jews of Israel for their torture and murder of the Palastinians while your at it. Or even Muslims for their role in the murder of Americans recently in New York.

Get off your Anti-Catholic high horse....Im no ultra catholic but I cant read such rubbish without a response.

[finlma]

Now if this woman who got married to her husband without knowing that he had had previous sexual relationships how in the name of all that is good is that the Pope's fault? Its the Popes fault that she married someone who did not explain themselves?

AIDS doesn't only come from sexual intercourse.

Who funds the programs for medicine?

Bob Geldoff

Who put pressure on various Government (especially the US) to allow patents to be putaside for life saving AIDS durgs in the poor countries of the world.

Bono

[Jim Smith]

Well could someone tell me what denomination claims that shagging rings around you is OK?

You just have to look a bit harder
http://www.libchrist.com/

[liam88]

Bono

Bono.....the great lad from U2 who is a dedicated Catholic and met the Pope to give him his respects as he admires him so much before presenting the Pope with his trademark sunglasses (which the Pope put on) and reieving his Rosary from the Pope which he wears and holds on to in U2's new video for 'Vertigo'?

Or another Bono?

[Plastic Paddy]

Thats right, blame the pope and the catholic church for the spread of Aids. How did the disease start off anyway, and indeed spread, it certainly wasnt due to catholic policy on sex !
You seem to be misguided on the 'riches and selfishness' of the church too !!! they dont have missions all over the world or raise millions on an annual basis for the poor do they ???
As for the Jews ? What in under feck are you on ? Catholics were also the target of the Nazis in Instances. Here why dont you condem the Jews of Israel for their torture and murder of the Palastinians while your at it. Or even Muslims for their role in the murder of Americans recently in New York.

Get off your Anti-Catholic high horse....Im no ultra catholic but I cant read such rubbish without a response.

Now go back and read my posts properly this time. I AM A CATHOLIC! I just hold different views to you on the institution that is the Church and can substantiate each and every one of them.

Where is the Church's apology for its role in respect to Nazi Germany and other states in WWII? From Pius XII onwards, the world still waits. You can read my previous posts for the detail; something you obviously haven't done.

On to your other point. What about the riches and selfishness of the Church? Who owns the largest collection of pictures by Renaissance masters in the world? The Vatican (and no, you can't just rock up and see them. All well hidden in bank vaults or private galleries, I'm afraid). Which institution's wealth is estimated by independent observers at over one trillion US$? The Catholic Church. Again, I could go on...

If you want to bury your head in the sand over the Church's misdemeanours and failings, that's up to you, but don't go dissing me because you can't face facts.

PP

[liam88]

Where is the Church's apology for its role in respect to Nazi Germany and other states in WWII? From Pius XII onwards, the world still waits.

In the form of the Popes envoy to pay it's respects at Auschwitz on his behalf and his beatification of one murdered in Nazi death camps.
As I said in my previous posts our current Pope has also strengthened relations with the Jewish faith through stating publicly that they were not responsible for Christ's death; something that previous Pope's have not stated.

[dancinpants]

Now go back and read my posts properly this time. I AM A CATHOLIC! I just hold different views to you on the institution that is the Church and can substantiate each and every one of them.

Where is the Church's apology for its role in respect to Nazi Germany and other states in WWII? From Pius XII onwards, the world still waits. You can read my previous posts for the detail; something you obviously haven't done.

On to your other point. What about the riches and selfishness of the Church? Who owns the largest collection of pictures by Renaissance masters in the world? The Vatican (and no, you can't just rock up and see them. All well hidden in bank vaults or private galleries, I'm afraid). Which institution's wealth is estimated by independent observers at over one trillion US$? The Catholic Church. Again, I could go on...

If you want to bury your head in the sand over the Church's misdemeanours and failings, that's up to you, but don't go dissing me because you can't face facts.

PP

Polish Church apology over Holocaust,Polish cardinal apologises for church's sins,Pope apologises for church sins,Catholic order apologises publicly for abuse,Vatican apologises over holocaust,Pope sends first e-mail apology,Pope sorrow over Constantinople.

These are news headlines. they're easy to find. Go to bbc.co.uk, then in the search bar, type in "pope apologises", then click the Search BBC News tab, and voila, you get 4 pages with the afore mentioned headlines as links to the relevant stories.

[pete]

You just have to look a bit harder
http://www.libchrist.com/

Jeez you found that a little bit too quick...

Thought the IT survey the other week which said 87% of irish people belived in GOD was funny enough - no clarification on what type of GOD or anything...

Read somewhere recently that 35-40% of the Chech Republic are Atheists.

[Éanna]

Read somewhere recently that 35-40% of the Chech Republic are Atheists.

i think you'll find that to be the case in many former communist countries

[Plastic Paddy]

Polish Church apology over Holocaust,Polish cardinal apologises for church's sins,Pope apologises for church sins,Catholic order apologises publicly for abuse,Vatican apologises over holocaust,Pope sends first e-mail apology,Pope sorrow over Constantinople.

These are news headlines. they're easy to find. Go to bbc.co.uk, then in the search bar, type in "pope apologises", then click the Search BBC News tab, and voila, you get 4 pages with the afore mentioned headlines as links to the relevant stories.

Fair play. From your (very reliable) source, it turns out the Pope did indeed apologise for the Church's complaisance over the Holocaust as far back as 2000. Fifty-five years too late, but an apology nonetheless, and one delivered from the appropriate tier of authority.

For my part, I apologise to those of you for whom my statements and stance on this particular point has caused offence.

PP

[liam88]

Fair play. From your (very reliable) source, it turns out the Pope did indeed apologise for the Church's complaisance over the Holocaust as far back as 2000. Fifty-five years too late, but an apology nonetheless, and one delivered from the appropriate tier of authority.

For my part, I apologise to those of you for whom my statements and stance on this particular point has caused offence.

PP

Fair play to you PAddy.......it's not quite the same but Blair apologising over the famine was too late but an apolegy none the less-it's the most anyone (including the Pope) could have done and he did it so fair play to John Paul II

[anto eile]

Abstinace before marriage is somethign many Catholcis do subscribe to.
The point I was trying to make was that if they are prepared to listen to the Pope on contraception and follow him 100% by never using a condom even when AIDS is rife why do they not listen to him on contraception....
There are holes all over that argument and piled on top is some off the wall theory about Catholcis being in conclusion with the Nazis to massacre Jews. Look I'm not going to change my stance, and I personally find those kind of allegation against my faith and my Pope offensive.....Ive had enough anti-Catholic cr*p growing up why do I need more now especially from someone I got on weel with like PP?

you say theres holes in that argument?try read the catholic bible and youl fins more holes in the "logic" than youd find in a football net. come on be realistic, unless you actually believe youre eating the flesh of a 2000year dead man when you et communion then youre not a true believer.all religion ins rubbish.propaganda to scare a majority of people into doing what an elite minority want.catholic church is a fascist organization.open your eyes you deluded fool

[liam88]

you say theres holes in that argument?try read the catholic bible and youl fins more holes in the "logic" than youd find in a football net. come on be realistic, unless you actually believe youre eating the flesh of a 2000year dead man when you et communion then youre not a true believer.all religion ins rubbish.propaganda to scare a majority of people into doing what an elite minority want.catholic church is a fascist organization.open your eyes you deluded fool

Even thoug your vaguely on the same side as PP I'm sure he will edit your post/give you a warning for your breaking of foot.ie's attack pos not poster rule-i.e. "deluded fool"-this deluded fool has good GCSE results and is the St. John Ambulance Cadet of the year for Surrey
And I do believe I am eating the body of my Lord at Communion and am tus being forgiven for my sins; and I'm not a fascist
Any more issues ya got with me-don't really want to hear 'em!

[eoinh]

Personally I feel at this stage of his pontificate he has the ability to preach to Scottish Premier League supporters but for the more demanding catholic Eircom League supporters hes out of his depth

[Jim Smith]

Personally I feel at this stage of his pontificate he has the ability to preach to Scottish Premier League supporters but for the more demanding catholic Eircom League supporters hes out of his depth

So by that logic, as a supporter of a Scottish 2nd Division team, who will preach to me? I suppose I'll just have to stick to listening to the voices in my head

[dcfcsteve]

I'm a bit loathe to stoke this whole debate up again, but to be honest - the concept of blaiming the Pope and the Catholic Church for the spread of Aids in Africa has been bothering me.

Firstly, it's afact that cultural reasons are a greater prohibitor towards condom use in Africa than the preachings of a single Christian church. Two key isses here : firstly, it is well noted that there is a general cultural antagonism towards condom use amongst males in African society in general. This is a cultural issue - not a religious one. Secondly - amongst certain widespread animist sects within Africa it is believed that if an AIDS victim has sex with a virgin, they are actually cured of the disease (it's the same belief that lies behind Muti killings - i.e. that you can absorb someone else's purity for yourself). In reality, these 2 factors (in particular antipathy towards condoms in general) have to-date had a greater impact upon the spread of AIDS than the teachings of the Catholic church. In certain specific cases, such as Rwanda, other issues have also had a greater impact than the church on the spread of AIDS - such as the widespread use of systematic rape as a method of oppression/torture during the Hutu/Tutsi's civil war/genocide.

Also - if you look at the 10 nations in the World with the highest AIDS infection rates (all in Africa) none of them are majority Catholic nations, and the ones with by far the highest infection rates (Zimbabwe and Botswana) have a miniscule Catholic proportion, as indeed does the country with the highest real number of AIDS sufferers in the world (South Africa) :

COUNTRY INFECTION RATE PERCENTAGE OF CATHOLICS IN POPULATION
Zimbabwe 25.8 % 7.7 %
Botswana 25.0 % 4.9 %
Zambia 19.0 % 26.4 %
Malawi 15.0 % 19.6 %
Mozambique 14.2 % 22.2 %
South Africa 13.0 % 6.4 %
Rwanda 12.7 % 47.8 %
Kenya 11.6 % 23.3 %
Cen. African Rep 10.8 % 23.0 %
Djibouti 10.3 % 1.3 %

Either every single Catholic alive in the above nations is HIV+ and working flat-out to spread it throughout the rest of the continent in the name of Papa JP, or the soyrce of the problem is much, much more complex than one than can simply be attributed to Catholic teachings on contraception.

Whilst the Catholic Church/Pope's stance on condoms certainly won't be helping, the above figures show that it is ludicrously sloppy anti-Catholic rhetoric/journalism to blame the church for the spread of a disease that has much deeper cultural causes than the teachings of any single church could ever hope to compete with.

[Neish]

The man should be retired be it voluntary or non-voluntary. How can a man in such a state be the head of one of the biggest religions in the world?

What age is he anyhow?

[dcfcsteve]

The man should be retired be it voluntary or non-voluntary. How can a man in such a state be the head of one of the biggest religions in the world?

What age is he anyhow?

I do agree with you on that. Apparently the Cardinals are planning a compulsory age of retirement at from now on (80yrs of age).

[green goblin]

The man should be retired be it voluntary or non-voluntary. How can a man in such a state be the head of one of the biggest religions in the world?

What age is he anyhow?

In the Anglican church the Archbishop of Canterbury is allowed to retire on a nice pension. Either that or the ruling monarch sends some fellas with swords round to lop their heads off, but that hasn't happened for a while now.

[anto eile]

Even thoug your vaguely on the same side as PP I'm sure he will edit your post/give you a warning for your breaking of foot.ie's attack pos not poster rule-i.e. "deluded fool"-this deluded fool has good GCSE results and is the St. John Ambulance Cadet of the year for Surrey
And I do believe I am eating the body of my Lord at Communion and am tus being forgiven for my sins; and I'm not a fascist
Any more issues ya got with me-don't really want to hear 'em!

re deluded fool;im atacking your view,not you personally.
"im certainly no fascist.fascists dress in black and go around telling people what to do ,whereas priests...." Crilly, Ted.