Long ball or not? Quality of football

[Éanna]

im going to stop now i think there is no point disscussing this any more if ye really think greece are better than england and spain , its obvious we have very different ideas of good football

greece are european champions. spain haven't won that tournament for decades, and england have never won it. Greece got further than both of them. So how are they NOT better? Go off and watch sky sports and believe their hype, because you really don't seem to know what you're talking about, if your posts are serious

[monutdfc]

Greece were so crap I couldn't watch their games and when I did I was willing the other side to win. They played rubbish football, if you could call it football. Worse than Ireland in Italia '90.
Sure they played to their strengths and couldn't have dreamt of winning the trophy if they came out and played against the Portugese or the Czechs, but it was still rubbish football. Their current position in the World Cup qualifiers is a better reflection of their ability as a team.

The eternal question: would you prefer your team won playing defensive football only looking to score off set-pieces, or came second playing entertaining football every week?
Given the amount of hours I spend watching football I would go for the second option every time.

[Éanna]

Greece were so crap I couldn't watch their games and when I did I was willing the other side to win. They played rubbish football, if you could call it football.

it worked. therefore it wasn't rubbish! it might not have been attractive, or nice to watch, but it worked.

The eternal question: would you prefer your team won playing defensive football only looking to score off set-pieces, or came second playing entertaining football every week?
Given the amount of hours I spend watching football I would go for the second option every time.

My team? The first. Anything for success. Win first, play nice later. As for watching other teams, then the latter. If I'm gonna sit down and watch a game on the box, I want it to be a good game. but if I'm rooting for a team, I couldn't care less how bad they are once they win

[anto1208]

greece are european champions. spain haven't won that tournament for decades, and england have never won it. Greece got further than both of them. So how are they NOT better? Go off and watch sky sports and believe their hype, because you really don't seem to know what you're talking about, if your posts are serious

they are better because they have better players greece had one lucky tournament they had never won a competitive euro game before that comp . they defended brilliantly and scored practically the same goal each time a set peice .


THANK YOU monutd i though i was going mad here

[Éanna]

they are better because they have better players greece had one lucky tournament they had never won a competitive euro game before that comp . they defended brilliantly and scored practically the same goal each time a set peice .

you make no sense at all. "they are better because they have better players"? Having good players doesn't win you trophies. Having the best team does.

[anto1208]

but that makes no sence rubbish team offten beat bigger teams it does nt make them better

by your logic bolton are as good as chelsea since they drew
exeter are as good as utd since they drew
burnley are better than liverpool

now i think chelsea utd and liverpool are better than the others guess i dont know any thing about football so !

[Bald Student]

rubbish team offten beat bigger teams it does nt make them better

I agree with most of what you're saying anto, one result in a knock out competition doesn't make a team good. But at the same time playing a defencive game doesn't make a team bad. These tactics worked for the Greeks and they deserved to win the games they did.

On a small point, you used the phrases 'bigger teams' and 'better teams' interchangeably. That puts out with me as a fan of a small team. Bigger teams are decided by finance and support. Better teams are decided on the pitch.

[pete]

The eternal question: would you prefer your team won playing defensive football only looking to score off set-pieces, or came second playing entertaining football every week?
Given the amount of hours I spend watching football I would go for the second option every time.

I would say 95% of people who attend football games want to win first & style 2nd. Losing isn't fun when have opposition fans in your face.

When watching on tv can just change channel when your stylish team is losing.

[Slash/ED]

The eternal question: would you prefer your team won playing defensive football only looking to score off set-pieces, or came second playing entertaining football every week?
Given the amount of hours I spend watching football I would go for the second option every time.

I really can't believe anybody would pick the second option

[Éanna]

one result in a knock out competition doesn't make a team good. But at the same time playing a defencive game doesn't make a team bad.

very well said.
thats pretty much what i was getting at, I just didn't put it as well

[monutdfc]

I really can't believe anybody would pick the second option

If it's a cup final or a league decider of course the result is all important. But week-in, week-out - no way. Think of Arsenal towards the end of the George Graham era, or (dare I say it) St Pats towards the end of Dolan's reign: both teams were winning trophies (or sort of in St Pats case), but they weren't winning any new fans with their style of football. I always followed Arsenal, but toward the end of the Graham era I couldn't be arsed watching them if they were on tv. Try watching a re-run of a full game of Ireland in Italia '90 - yeah, the results were brilliant, we all got excited, but the the football was terrible. Another example - Kildare County in their second season under Keely - doing very well in the league, getting good results, but a squad of very talented players under instruction to play hoof-it football. I remember reading the Kildare County forum at the time and there was a debate about style over results - no-one denied the style was tedious to watch.
The argument often used here by eL fans when confronting any barstoolers who dare denounce the eL, when they say "I wouldn't watch that, it's a load of rubbish" is to ask them if they've been to many games. Well if they end up watching the style of football some people seem to be advocating here (eg Greece), they would be perfectly correct if they said it was a load of rubbish to watch. Newcomers to eL games won't come back because the atmosphere was brilliant (for most games it's not, and if you're a newcomer you're not going to be as involved in the atmosphere anyway, and we don't have Sky to hype it up) but rather if the standard of football is higher than they expected or the game was enjoyable to watch.

[monutdfc]

Let's say you've never been to City before. They play 11 Carlton Palmers, it's absolute rubbish from beginning to end and they win one-nil from a deflected header from a corner that came from a hopeful punt up the pitch. I would doubt if you'd go back. Anto made the point earlier that crowds will not return to the eL if the football is not attractive and I believe he is correct.

The thread started with people arguing how the standard of football is high in the eL, yet people seem to be advocating sacrificing good football for results. If that happens then no-one can make the argument about the standard of football in the eL being high. I know that as someone said long-ball happens in every league in the world, but it's usually the weaker teams using it to bridge the gap to compete with the better sides (eg Bolton Wanderers, Wimbledon for years). (And by 'long-ball' I really mean unattractive football designed purley to achieve results, a la Greece.)

Who won the World Cup in 1982? Italy. Who does everybody remember from that tournament? Brazil, without a doubt. If they were league teams, which team would I prefer to watch every week? Brazil, undoubtedly, even if they did come second to a cynical yet efficient Italian side in this fantasy league. I have enjoyed games where we have lost narrowly or drawn but played well, and I have been bored rigid in games where we won 1-0. Don't get all self-righteous saying I am not a true fan for saying this.

(Anyway, you might get your wish - if another season of beautiful football brings no silverware to the Cross, Dolan will revert to the tactics of his Set-Piece Athletic days )

[CollegeTillIDie]

But I'm talking about fans, not someone who might stroll down to a game every now and again.



You must be joking. I remember Italy, Dino Zoff, Marco Tardelli running at the camera. I remember Schumacher taking out Battiston and The Man They Call The Monster scoring a peno. I remember Maradona being sent off. I remember the Austria Germany controversy. And I remember Brazil as losers who certainly played pretty football but wouldn't run 5 yards to get a ball. You also seem to forget the reception they got back in brazil from their 'fans'.

I would prefer to watch Brazil over Italy every week too, but that's an incorrect analogy because I'm not a fan of either. On the other hand I follow Ireland, so I would watch Ireland every week before Brazil, even though you might well (correctly) feel our football inferior.

Success scores over style every time folks. Ask Tottenham or West Ham supporters if you don't believe me. Always played stylish football but in the case of West Ham mostly outside the elite Division in recent seasons.

Italy succeed because they realise one basic fact. DEFENDING is an integral part of the game of football. The only way to beat a team like Brazil is to be better defensively than they are , because 9 times out of 10 they will be better than you offensively.

[pete]

Pats are probably playing better football now (standard of eL has improved) since the title winning Gilzean/Braithwaite/Molloy days but I doubt you could find 1 fan who prefer current situation.

Give up the arguement not gonna find anyone to agree with you...

[anto1208]

i dont know ye all seem pretty happy going week in week out standing in the wind and rain watching poor quality football .

so from what ye are saying there is no need to improve the standard in the el
must be good news for the fai they dont have to invest money in the league since ye will allways keep forking over ye re cash to watch bad players playing badly

maybe im just different in wanting to go see quality football

[Slash/ED]

i dont know ye all seem pretty happy going week in week out standing in the wind and rain watching poor quality football .

so from what ye are saying there is no need to improve the standard in the el
must be good news for the fai they dont have to invest money in the league since ye will allways keep forking over ye re cash to watch bad players playing badly

maybe im just different in wanting to go see quality football

I want to see my team win and in Europe, that means I want to see the standard of play raised. That doesn't interfere with the fact that I couldn't care less if we play a so called poor route one style of play or a beautiful passing game so long as we get the results. Style of football does not = standard of football.

[Mr A]

I think almost every fan of a club would agree that they'd rather see their team win than play attractive football. But overall the league could do with a bigger emphasis on passing/attractive/attacking football. I love the league but I can't say that it's often good to watch if you're not involved in it.

eL matches on TV and live are often of a very poor quality and even Shels' best performances in Europe were often tempered by their inability to pass the ball and poor technical ability. I was at a Serie C cup match in Italy this summer and everything about the match, stadium and occasion were so many lightyears ahead of the eL it's unreal. As a neutral I was sucked into the game in Italy in exactly the way I suspect that neutral people usually aren't in Ireland. I've brought friends to both premier and first division matches and they've been totally unimpressed more often than not.

Whatever about European results, football in Ireland isn't that good to watch most of the time and that's the major problem. In this day and age people have plenty of options for entertainment and the sad fact is that the eL isn't competing successfully. Summer soccer, the ten team league etc.- they're just casting about for quick answers. We need to gradually improve the quality of football, stadiums and facilities in the league and then the crowds will come. The U21 league was a step in the right direction and UEFA licencing should help on the latter 2 fronts, but a change in philosophy from that of winning to that of improving players is what is in my view needed to help improve the eL and Irish football in general.

[CollegeTillIDie]

i dont know ye all seem pretty happy going week in week out standing in the wind and rain watching poor quality football .

so from what ye are saying there is no need to improve the standard in the el
must be good news for the fai they dont have to invest money in the league since ye will allways keep forking over ye re cash to watch bad players playing badly

maybe im just different in wanting to go see quality football

So Anto how often do you visit Spain to watch La Liga or Italy to watch Serie A ?

[Bald Student]

ye all seem pretty happy going week in week out standing in the wind and rain

I can only speak for myself anto but yes I am very happy standing in the wind and rain to watch my football. I personally feel a bit stupid watching football on the telly, especially in a bar where everyone shouts at the ref and cheers the players. Neither the ref nor the players can hear us.

On a side issue, the stand in Belfield - like most grounds - has a roof, walls and seats so usually I'm sitting in neither wind nor rain to watch my football.

[anto1208]

So Anto how often do you visit Spain to watch La Liga or Italy to watch Serie A ?

never , but im not happy going week in week out watching the poor quality football ,

id happily stand in the cold and rain watching good football !!