4 x 4s

[Peadar]

...I actually fine cyclists worse drivers than suv drivers.

...on and off pavements, pulling out without looking etc etc...

On my way home from work one evening I was supposed to be meeting Pete to go to a City game. A big dirty lánger came belting down the footpath on a mountain bike (probably stolen) and bashed straight into me, knocking me out into the busy street. (Capel St. in Dublin at 17:30)
I went over on my knee and it swelled up like a melon.
He was back on his bike and gone like a shot.
I missed the game which added to my pain.

As far as I know there's a law in Ireland which requires cyclists to dismount on pavements!?

At the time I wanted to buy a 4x4 and go after the yer man on his bike.

[fosterdollar]

dcfcsteve:

I would imagine that environmental impact is only one of the reasons people have a dislike for the amount of 4x4's on the road. Certainly for me, it's a pretty small reason given the facts you outlined above. However, it is my opinion that the presence of so many of them on today's roads is going to lead to significant problems. Here are some reason i don't like them.

Like I mentioned, albeit in a slightly derogatory way, the use of them by parents for unnecessary trips over very short distances is quite evident every schoolday morning and evening. Every morning i have to endure painstakingly slow manoevres carried out by men and woman grappling with steering wheels, reversing forwards and backwards on fifty point turns trying their best not to hit any of the tiny kids with their monstrous tanks. It's pathetic. On any school holiday, the same journey is a joy to drive given the absence of said 4x4's.

It is well known that many people (women in particular) find that 4x4's/SUV's/etc afford them a more authoritive position on the road. This being a reason for using them is an example of their potential danger.

Fair enough they don't consume fuel at the same rate as high capacity sports cars or luxury cars. However, as you say, there are far more of them around. Now it is the case that most of the 4x4's are diesel engined. Diesel engines produce much larger quantities of PM10's (particular matter less than 10 microns in diameter - highly damaging to human respiratory systems) which is cannot be removed by catalytic converters (in fact, cc's actually are responsible for more of these being produced by engine emissions). The increased presence of 4x4's, trucks, vans, etc on urban streets/roads mean that the contribution to air pollution in these areas is made up for the most part by these vehicles.

[dcfcsteve]

I take everyone's points above, and as I said I'm no lover of 4x4's. But I'm also no lover of hypocrisy....

Where was everyone's heart-felt concern for vehicle emissions, road safety, and the driving of kids to school in ANY private motorised vehicle (they all add to congestion...) prior to the recent onslaught of SUV's ? SUV's don't help any of the above, but they're by no means solely - or even primarily - responsible either. All of the above 3 problems (emissions, road safety, school-run congestion) existed prior to the growth in 4x4 ownership. All of the above 3 problems would still exist even if 4x4's were banned tomorrow....

The fact that there was little openly-expressed populist concern about these 3 issues (particularly emissions) prior to the recent SUV-bashing raises obvious questions. Ireland has consistently one of the worst road safety records in Europe for feck sake - yet we all only sit up and demand action when it comes to a particular type of vehicle ? Driving your kid 2 miles to and from the school gate every day in a Golf Estate is ok then with regards emissions and congestion, just as long as you don't dare do so in an SUV...?

Anyone care to explain how the stance of the public on 4x4's - and as evidenced via this board it is a very populist issue - can not justifiably be labelled hypocrisy ? Are we all (myself included) genuinely doing our best to reduce congestion and emissions and to promote road safety ? I drove 2 miles to the gym last night as it was feckin' cold. Sure - it was 9pm, the roads were empty, and I drove safely. But it still shows that I'm not genuinely doing my bit.....

[fosterdollar]

All of the above 3 problems (emissions, road safety, school-run congestion) existed prior to the growth in 4x4 ownership. All of the above 3 problems would still exist even if 4x4's were banned tomorrow....

This thread is about 4x4's and the issues people have with them. That's why I'm commenting on them anyway. Start another thread about other road users if you want to talk about people's peeves with them. As i said earlier, 4x4's are contributing to the problems as a group more than, say, scooters or mid range family cars (neither of which I am connected with). That is why the authorities in cities like Paris are seriously proposing a ban on 4x4 type vehicles from the city centres.

[dcfcsteve]

This thread is about 4x4's and the issues people have with them. That's why I'm commenting on them anyway. Start another thread about other road users if you want to talk about people's peeves with them. As i said earlier, 4x4's are contributing to the problems as a group more than, say, scooters or mid range family cars (neither of which I am connected with). That is why the authorities in cities like Paris are seriously proposing a ban on 4x4 type vehicles from the city centres.

Again - I can understand people have genuine concerns about 4x4's, as indeed I do.

But the very issues we're all concerned about with 4x4's are not limited solely to those types of vehicles. To only complain about road safety, emissions, congestion, height-above-road etc in the context of 4x4's - whilst completely ignoring the other 95+% of vehicles which contribute VASTLY more in real terms towards the areas of concern that people have with 4x4's, is therefore at best following a trend, at medium miopia, and at worst hypocrisy.

[dahamsta]

Baby steps dcfcsteve, baby steps. If we don't take baby steps, we'll never learn to walk*. If we go with that logic, we might as well throw Kyoto out the window because America isn't a signatory.

adam

[size=1]* Euphemism for "teach americans not to be selfish b*stards".[/size]

[fosterdollar]

But the very issues we're all concerned about with 4x4's are not limited solely to those types of vehicles. But the very issues we're all concerned about with 4x4's are not limited solely to those types of vehicles.

Agreed but it happens to be 4x4's we're talking about here and, in fairness, they seem to be a rather significant contributor to the issues.

[pete]

I wouldn't object to SUVs on environmental grounds although i do think the tax system of clasifying vehicles on engine size is long outdated & should be changed to emissions or else even better dump road tax & just tax through fuel.

Bullbars have absolutely no purpose besides dragging sheep through bogs or something. Maybe i got the term incorrect but cars are made so that can deflect the pedestrian at a certain angle. If someone hit me with ballbars & was lucky enough to survive i'd "sue their ass" as the yanks would say.

[Bluebeard]

If someone hit me with ballbars & was lucky enough to survive i'd "sue their ass" as the yanks would say.

There's a thought

[dcfcsteve]

Baby steps dcfcsteve, baby steps. If we don't take baby steps, we'll never learn to walk*. If we go with that logic, we might as well throw Kyoto out the window because America isn't a signatory.

adam

[size=1]* Euphemism for "teach americans not to be selfish b*stards".[/size]

But that's my point dahamsta -it's not part of anything wider !

If 4x4's got banned tomorrow we wouldn't hear another word on any of these issues of immense concern from the vast majority of people who've taken umbrage towards 4x4's. Because the simple fact is that they don't want to hear that their own wee motorised modus transportus is also an offender on the very issues they claim concern them about 4x4's. Just like we didn't hear anything from them before 4x4's became a popular whipping boy/vehicle. This isn't an issue that is going to suddenly awaken the slumbering masses to Ireland's woeful road safety record and our contribution to global warming.

So it's not 'baby steps' as part of a journey towards something - it's a single foot down, end of story. 4x4's are easily to vilify, because there's a significant number of them without them being too numerous, they tend to be in the hands of well-off people, and they are very damaging environmentally and in terms of fatalities during accidents. But if they were banned tomorrow, do you honestly believe the masses would move onto another target in their quest for lower emissions, safer roads, less congestion, better parking etc etc ? No - because the next steps down from 4x4's involve the very type of vehicles that Joe Average drives, and they don't want to hear about it when it starts to impact them.....

[dahamsta]

If 4x4's got banned tomorrow we wouldn't hear another word on any of these issues of immense concern from the vast majority of people who've taken umbrage towards 4x4's.

Can I borrow your time machine this weekend Steve?

But if they were banned tomorrow, do you honestly believe the masses would move onto another target in their quest for lower emissions, safer roads, less congestion, better parking etc etc ? No - because the next steps down from 4x4's involve the very type of vehicles that Joe Average drives, and they don't want to hear about it when it starts to impact them.....

Tell that to all the Californians (and Irish people, there's one in Cork!) driving the Toyota Prius.

Hey, don't get me wrong, I drive a 2.5 litre beemer that sucks down about €70 worth of petrol a month (and I hardly drive the effing thing!), so I'm just as bad as the rest of them. But I think you're reaching a bit there with the predictions tbh. I think it's quite likely that, sooner rather than later, we'll follow in the footsteps of places like California. Where it's trendy to drive a hybrid or even fully-electric car.

adam

[monutdfc]

they are very damaging environmentally and in terms of fatalities during accidents.

2 reasons to place limitations on their use.
Driving 4x4s / SUVs is selfish in terms of environmental damage. They cause a lot more environmental damage than a Ford Fiesta - FACT.
You don't seem to get environmentally sensitive policies. It is not about going after everything that causes environmental damage. It is about limiting things that cause excessive environmental damage, but at the same time educating people to change their ways. Although in Ireland we have to encourage people to change their ways - the plastic bag tax etc. - because, as you say, the masses don't want to change when it impinges on their life. If the government was serious about meeting our Kyoto targets there are a lot of things they could do to incentivise people to leave the car at home, drive more environmentally sound cars etc. But, you know what, the cars that Average Joe drives are not as environmentally damaging (and even if it's only by a small degree every bit matters when multiplied by all the cars on the road), and environmentally sound policies do not necessarily mean banning cars altogether.

[dcfcsteve]

2 reasons to place limitations on their use.
Driving 4x4s / SUVs is selfish in terms of environmental damage. They cause a lot more environmental damage than a Ford Fiesta - FACT.
You don't seem to get environmentally sensitive policies. It is not about going after everything that causes environmental damage. It is about limiting things that cause excessive environmental damage, but at the same time educating people to change their ways. Although in Ireland we have to encourage people to change their ways - the plastic bag tax etc. - because, as you say, the masses don't want to change when it impinges on their life. If the government was serious about meeting our Kyoto targets there are a lot of things they could do to incentivise people to leave the car at home, drive more environmentally sound cars etc. But, you know what, the cars that Average Joe drives are not as environmentally damaging (and even if it's only by a small degree every bit matters when multiplied by all the cars on the road), and environmentally sound policies do not necessarily mean banning cars altogether.

So let's ban 4x4's, and then do nothing when their drivers switch instead to less fuel efficient cars like top-of-the-range Jags, Rollers etc etc (they're hardly gonna trade down to a Ford Fiesta, are they ?) ? Good ploy. That's the danger in having an isolated policy/approach to these things - you can more often than not cause more damage than good. And public/media dislike of 4x4's is an isolated policy - there is no comment made on any other form of popular motorised transport being negative. Get rid of 4x4's and all will be good and safe on our roads and our planet....

As I've stated before, I consider myself an environmentalist, so I buy into what everyone is saying. And I have concerns about 4x4's and I alos think there should be controls on them (would love to see them banned form the centre of London). But what I also have concerns about is every tabloid-reading feck in the country suddenly taking a view on road saftey, congestion, emmissions etc just to justify their dislike of 4x4's and their drivers, when we all know hand-on-heart that they don't really give a monkeys about it all.....

[$Leon$]

my reasons for dislikin the things is more road safety than emmissions.
if smaller engines are properly designed they can produce alot of power america just doesn't seem to have copped on to this yet

[dahamsta]

America has copped it, it's just a matter of laziness and penny-pinching over there really. The American auto industry is incredibly slow to change, and will battle change at every available opportunity.

adam

[lopez]

I absolutely hate 4x4s and the c*nts who drive them. Suddenly they think they've got a tank and drive around without any consideration for others. A mate of mine's sister-in-law hit one head on and ended up with a leaking car battery on her lap and struggling to walk since. All the b*stard that done this was worried about was his laptop. Slap a 5K 'w*nkers tax' on all those except bona fide (big or small) farmers, and make it mandatory to remove all seat belts so that these people drive around more safely and put a big tit on top so everyone can see them coming.

[Pat O' Banton]

I absolutely hate 4x4s and the c*nts who drive them. Suddenly they think they've got a tank and drive around without any consideration for others. A mate of mine's sister-in-law hit one head on and ended up with a leaking car battery on her lap and struggling to walk since. All the b*stard that done this was worried about was his laptop. Slap a 5K 'w*nkers tax' on all those except bona fide (big or small) farmers, and make it mandatory to remove all seat belts so that these people drive around more safely and put a big tit on top so everyone can see them coming.

I said on another thread that I would be voting Independent Working Class Alliance, but, with these type of policies, if your thinking of standing you can count on my support.

[lopez]

I said on another thread that I would be voting Independent Working Class Alliance, but, with these type of policies, if your thinking of standing you can count on my support.

If you do, you'll be following in the esteemed footsteps of many notable former socialists - Benny Mussolini, Ossie Moseley, the Strasser brothers, Joselito PdeR - who ended up seeing that fascism is ultimately the best policy. Cara al sol con la camiiiiiiiisa nueeeeeeevaaaa!!!

[Lionel Ritchie]

first dibs on director of elections job!

[Pat O' Banton]

If you do, you'll be following in the esteemed footsteps of many notable former socialists - Benny Mussolini, Ossie Moseley, the Strasser brothers, Joselito PdeR - who ended up seeing that fascism is ultimately the best policy. Cara al sol con la camiiiiiiiisa nueeeeeeevaaaa!!!

(so them photos of you in the beret in Paris weren't just staged for the camera ) Lioniel your in for a treat as election agent.

Oh cheers as well, nobody has ever refered to me as a notable socialist before!